Curse

tomcruisejr · Mar 29, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

I have never read a word you've written that was in the least bit constructive. I know that you are a proud IWAYer and in reality, I take no issue with IWAYers. What I do take issue with is the pride you take in needlessly attempting to piss people off. Your thinly veiled and childish attempts to do so shine through in everything I've ever seen you write. I don't like you, as a point of fact, I hate you. If you were dying, I might forget to call an ambulance, but that has nothing to do with you IWAYing and everything to do with you needlessly instigating flamewars about IWAY. I've got nothing to say about IWAY and I haven't for a while. When I mention it in passing as a negative peice of HA history it's forgotten just as quickly. It kind of seems like the only one who hasn't forgotten about it is you.

Your suggestion that all my issues with old HA stem from my distaste for IWAY is among other things, patently false. Get a clue, rub a couple of those brain cells together and don't come back until you can actually address what I'm talking about. My largest issue with old HA is altar holding and IWAY was never good at altar holding. Why then would I care about IWAYers? I mentioned IWAY in passing talking about the HA metagame stagnating, but bspike is even worse than IWAY imo. But I digress...get clue, braincells, etc.

-Jessyi

You need to lighten up. This is the internet.

If you may,

Bob Marley - Stir It Up

"Stir it up; little darlin, stir it up. come on, baby.
Come on and stir it up: little darlin, stir it up. o-oh!

Its been a long, long time, yeah!
(stir it, stir it, stir it together)
Since I got you on my mind. (ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh) oh-oh!
Now you are here (stir it, stir it, stir it together), I said,
Its so clear
Theres so much we could do, baby, (ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh)
Just me and you."

Anyway, yea, being in an IWAY guild, I heard many whines, trash talks and what youve said, I heard it way way back. And I find it funny that it's now 2007 and still hear the same old bullshit.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 29, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

Wow, unique AND fun?? Well, that's some real objective criteria right there. Oh yeah, I sure hope that's not your best reasoning or this little sparring match might be over real soon. Oh wait wait..."you don't fix something that's not broken". Yeah you don't, that's why HA was fixed. Fackken' brilliant Einstein. You still owe me a reason for why altar holding doesn't suck, and oh yeah - I'll read through the other thread later, though if it's not as much of a flamefest as this is with as many opposed posters as pro-posters I'll be very much surprised.

Flawed logic, you have failed to prove to me that altar holding sucks, so why should I have to disprove it?

When I make a post about altar maps, it usualy includes examples of actual builds and skill abuses that took, when the anti-altar map hacks post its usualy vague references to imaginary scenarios.

Patccmoi · Mar 29, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

There are like 100x posts on why altar holding is better, some simple reasons include that it was more fun, it was unique, and you don't fix something that's not broken.

1) Was more fun - ENTIRELY subjective. For some reason, it's the total opposite for me and a lot of people i know (many of whom had a tiger prior to 6v6...)

2) Was unique - so is kill count. So is murder ball. So is kill of the hill. Your point?

3) You don't fix something that's not broken - you can for various reason, be it to freshen things up, etc. But the real thing to say about this is mostly that it's also quite subjective to say it 'wasn't broken'. For some people it might not seem like it was, but for a whole lot of others it WAS broken. And not just 'PvE newb scrubs'.

Get some real arguments at least to defend old 8v8. Something that's not 100% subjective and that you can't evaluate on any real basis.

Things like :

1) How did old holding HA helped people getting better vs current rotating HoH?
2) How did old holding HA favored more balanced/varied setup vs current rotating HoH?
3) How did old holding HA favored player skill more vs current rotating HoH?

And keep in mind that kill count is NOT part of rotating HoH.

Im In A Build · Mar 29, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Flawed logic, you have failed to prove to me that altar holding sucks, so why should I have to disprove it?

When I make a post about altar maps, it usualy includes examples of actual builds and skill abuses that took, when the anti-altar map hacks post its usualy vague references to imaginary scenarios.

and your build refrences are 6 months old yay for failure people have made valid points as to why old alter holding was bad you ignore them because you know where right and you cant argue you the start flaming people and wondering why they flame you

so wheres is your valid argument for why alter holding was good that dosent include reasoning such as fun and unquie because guess what those are subjective to every person

Nurse With Wound · Mar 29, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I deleted most of this useless drama, because if was neither funny or entertaining.

Putting that aside, i compleatly agree with what Jessyi said, althout it was maybe somewhat exaggerated, altar capping and holding vs two good teams wast that easy or that mindles. Although I have to say yes, it was bad mechanics and Im glad its gone.

I wont repeat all that Jessyi wrote in his first post, but to summarize, game type which required you to pack large amounts of defense to protect one, non kiting NPC is a bad design. Of course there were some teams that were sucessfuly holding with really flexible, interesting builds, but most of the time holding mechanics promoted really bad, defensive builds like og spike, which is basically 7 soul reaping fueled monks and spirit spammer. And dont try to deny that OG spike or other defensive spikes werent popular in old HA, because I was there playing against them every goddamn day, all the time. IWAY was nothing but a joke and free fame, only one guild could run it properly tbh.

New modes introduced to HOH are forcing builds to be more flexible, to pack more counters, more skills on the bars to sucessfuly hold for some time. With relic runs and capture points you cant just hold by putting fertile up, have wariors training their interrupters. You actually have to cooperate with your teammates, have different tactics for each type of game, it requires more skill than spamming SB and heals on ghosty hero while getting unlimited energy from iway pets. (channeling on all 3 monks)

Thats why I want new HOH modes to stay for good ( apart from killcount, which is another scrub mode, but I posted my opinion about it in other thread ). Instead of 3 way killcount, they should add more annihilation maps, return of scarred earth would be good, because only scrubs cried about it.

Seriously I loved the old Halls as much as you did guys, I was playing HA and HA only, but try to think out of the box, and see, that some changes were made for good.

8v8 ftw btw

Jessyi · Mar 29, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Flawed logic, you have failed to prove to me that altar holding sucks, so why should I have to disprove it?

When I make a post about altar maps, it usualy includes examples of actual builds and skill abuses that took, when the anti-altar map hacks post its usualy vague references to imaginary scenarios.

You're losing ground. I did give a case for why altar holding sucks. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with flawed logic. Even if I didn't have a case (or more to the point you don't like it), you would still be obliged to tell us why altar holding is a better alternative. Before I illustrate that with an example, let me say first that just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it right. You've all but flat out said that no matter what I or anyone else could say, you'll never change your mind on the matter so I only continue this for the sake of the people out there who may not be totally hopeless. As to the promised illustration. Suppose that people are starving in your kingdom. Well obviously starving isn't a good thing so you decide to feed them...sand. Yes, sand. There's lots of it! Enough for everyone to eat. Anyways they come back and say "well, sand isn't really good to eat", so you tell them to go back to starving. Regression isn't the same thing as solving a problem. The problems HA faces right now are a product of it moving in the right direction, but we're not there yet. Going back to altar holding fixes nothing.

You asked me to state my points:

1) altar holding (in general) - encourages a ton of defense and as you yourself have said in the past, a ton of interrupts.
2) altar holding (in general) - ghostly is so easy to block that a half blind chimp could do it.
3) altar holding (in general) - doesn't enourage or really require very much positioning, snaring, or battlefield awareness besides dump tons and tons of defense on the ghost
4) altar holding (as a permanent victory condition in hoh) - ensures that there will only ever be one optimal style build in HA. Think, tons of enchants - probably a 3 monk backline, maybe a ton of spirits, probably a Rt spike with defensive spirits. Hey, maybe zergway will make a comeback...with MONKS! Who knows yet.

Altar holding in HoH wouldn't be the end of the world IF: the claim resource time was kept short, and the cap range was the same size as it is today, making unbreakable body blocks impossible, and IF the same system of points was kept instead of a last minute spike and cap netting the win for an easily inferior team.

For the sake of discussion, would that be a fair compromise?

-Jessyi

edit: I edited my post in consideration for Nurse. I've taken my calm pills so, I appreciate you cleaning that up and I apologize for any mess I may have instigated.

Relambrien · Mar 29, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

EDIT: Jessyi posted while I was typing this. Not all of it may be my opinion anymore, so be wary.

Personally, I think that the new gametypes were a fantastic idea, as well as the rotating objectives in HoH. Kill Count, however, is not a fun thing to play. The objective is pretty much this: spike out other people more than they spike out you. Considering you're almost guaranteed to play on one of these maps, bringing a degen or pressure build is, in general, a bad idea since you'll lose to spikes here.

A new type of mechanic (COMPLETELY off the top of my head) that may work to replace it might instead involve dealing damage. Say, whoever deals the most damage (or, more specifically, drains the most health) after x minutes wins. Healing doesn't decrease your points though, so you can't run a highly defensive build and expect to win (lack of damage). At the same time, you can't run a highly offensive build because you'll be destroyed in relic runs or HoH altar holds (lack of defense).

Couple this with altar holding as one of the rotating objectives in HoH and, imo, you promote a balanced environment that stresses builds that are not lopsided on offense or defense. Obviously this is restricting in the idea that you cannot run anything you want and expect to do well, but I'll leave it to the community to decide whether or not that is acceptable.

The end result is this:

1) Highly offensive builds are discouraged by relic runs and altar holds.
2) Highly defensive builds are discouraged by the proposed new mechanic.
3) Random objectives in HoH means you cannot expect to have a specific build that will keep you there.

This is completely unrefined and thought up in about 30 seconds, but it's better than having no new suggestions and just saying "Bring back altar matches!"

Let the "commenting" commence.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 29, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

I deleted most of this useless drama, because if was neither funny or entertaining.

Putting that aside, i compleatly agree with what Jessyi said, althout it was maybe somewhat exaggerated, altar capping and holding vs two good teams wast that easy or that mindles. Although I have to say yes, it was bad mechanics and Im glad its gone.

I wont repeat all that Jessyi wrote in his first post, but to summarize, game type which required you to pack large amounts of defense to protect one, non kiting NPC is a bad design. Of course there were some teams that were sucessfuly holding with really flexible, interesting builds, but most of the time holding mechanics promoted really bad, defensive builds like og spike, which is basically 7 soul reaping fueled monks and spirit spammer. And dont try to deny that OG spike or other defensive spikes werent popular in old HA, because I was there playing against them every goddamn day, all the time. IWAY was nothing but a joke and free fame, only one guild could run it properly tbh.

New modes introduced to HOH are forcing builds to be more flexible, to pack more counters, more skills on the bars to sucessfuly hold for some time. With relic runs and capture points you cant just hold by putting fertile up, have wariors training their interrupters. You actually have to cooperate with your teammates, have different tactics for each type of game, it requires more skill than spamming SB and heals on ghosty hero while getting unlimited energy from iway pets.

Thats why I want new HOH modes to stay for good ( apart from killcount, which is another scrub mode, but I posted my opinion about it in other thread ). Instead of 3 way killcount, they should add more annihilation maps, return of scarred earth would be good, because only scrubs cried about it.

Seriously I loved the old Halls as much as you did guys, I was playing HA and HA only, but try to think out of the box, and see, that some changes were made for good.

The fact is that halls was essentialy removed from the game and replaced with a less fun, it was changed based on the whines and trash talks of a few players.

OG spike was hardly defensive compared to the blood spikes of the past, OG spike dropped the ranger spirit spammer and sb infuser for necros so that they could instagib targets. This build was not very effective at holding halls compared to other builds available at the time. There was only one team (near the end) that held with a type of blood spike, and that was a classic bloodspike build. You should know better than that.

The new halls, is more skilled than old halls is a very subjective arguement, it was hardly about spamming sb and heals on the ghost, you had to know which team to pressure, when to give up the altar and recap, which team to bodyblock, you had to have good positioning, be on the look out for well of profanes, all while kiting OOP + OOA powered warriors, and stopping spikes, among other things. It was a frantic battle for the altar.

I don't want to play a useless relic mode that was slapped together jammed into a map it was not meant for, If i wanted to cap points, I'd play AB, if I wanted to split I'd GvG. What sets halls apart from the rest is gone, its now just a mish mash of other game modes.

Jessyi · Mar 29, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I agree with the entirety of your post Relambrien. I'd also like to take a moment to thank Im In A Build and Patccmoi for thier support.

Of course, the suggestion you've given isn't much different from the current killcount. The reason killcount sucks right now is because one team gets ganked by two others resulting in one team that has no chance of winning, and another team that could quite potentially lose unfairly - the most stunning example of which (and this has happened to me) is when a losing team feeds kills to the team in second place to stop the best team from winning. In a situation where you're measuring damage, you would still end up with a weaker team being ganked and times when a better team could lose (though I focus more on the 2 on 1 ganking as a larger problem). BUT, you ARE making suggestions and I appreciate that. It's alot more than I can say for certain other folk in this thread. My suggestion was to pull the maps altogether and put in some more 1v1 annhilation/relic runs, or even scarred earth again. Another possiblity would be to put in gates in broken tower and more gates in courtyard that can be closed off on one side, allowing fleeing teams the ability to cut off a would be gank team. Even with shadow stepping it wouldn't be so bad - the gates would still buy escaping teams precious seconds to escape while the mechanism resets. It's something to consider, but I'm just throwing it out there right now.

-Jessyi

Dinkytowner · Mar 29, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

So here's an idea, why not have both? I happened to enjoy the old altar mechanic and would like to see it return. I also don't mind the kill count maps as much as some ppl. It does encourage the scrub portion of the population to run 2 sins/2eles/killkillkillgogogogogo builds, but how many times do you see these kinds of teams on Dark Chambers or HoH? Not often I'd say. Most times (maybe 8/10) I find myself on the later maps the scrubs have been weeded out. Kill count can be kind of fun when given a chance. Tactics become a little more important when you are trying to avoid a gank and trying to sandwich another team at the same time. Gasp! Skill comes into play! My question is: Why can't we have both? Halls rotates from game type to game type, why can't BT/Court also rotate? I wouldn't mind seeing an old school altar match every other trip to those matches. This will keep people from QQing about holding builds, since you can't rely on those maps being the same objective everytime, and it will also appease the ppl like me who enjoy some of the changes to HA, but did thourghly enjoy the old aspects too. Bottom line, variety = good, stale = bad.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 29, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

You're losing ground. I did give a case for why altar holding sucks. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with flawed logic. Even if I didn't have a case (or more to the point you don't like it), you would still be obliged to tell us why altar holding is a better alternative. Before I illustrate that with an example, let me say first that just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it right. You've all but flat out said that no matter what I or anyone else could say, you'll never change your mind on the matter so I only continue this for the sake of the people out there who may not be totally hopeless. As to the promised illustration. Suppose that people are starving in your kingdom. Well obviously starving isn't a good thing so you decide to feed them...sand. Yes, sand. There's lots of it! Enough for everyone to eat. Anyways they come back and say "well, sand isn't really good to eat", so you tell them to go back to starving. Regression isn't the same thing as solving a problem. The problems HA faces right now are a product of it moving in the right direction, but we're not there yet. Going back to altar holding fixes nothing.

You asked me to state my points:

1) altar holding (in general) - encourages a ton of defense and as you yourself have said in the past, a ton of interrupts.

That's why there are other game modes on the way to halls, how do you intend to make it past relic run maps? how do you intend to get kills on annihilation? what do you intend to do to take the altar in the first place? What happens if you fail to capture the altar first on other altar maps? If you want to waste your own time and give people free fame be my guest. You need defense so what, don't you need some type of defense for everything?
You also need offense and utility, and what happens when you have those things? What happens when you wasted a whole week trying to get a hall skip and cap the altar only to get owned by a build with shutdown and you get kicked out of halls?

Quote:

2) altar holding (in general) - ghostly is so easy to block that a half blind chimp could do it.

The only way an unbreakable bodyblock can happen is if the holding ghost has died on the altar, or if the no ghost has claimed the altar.

Quote:

3) altar holding (in general) - doesn't enourage or really require very much positioning, snaring, or battlefield awareness besides dump tons and tons of defense on the ghost.

That may have been true if teams would simply hit the ghost for the entire match but that teams that know how to play this game do not do that, therefore you have to keep you own team alive as well as the hero, as well as prevent the use of harmful skills. You have to be aware of the threats around you and know when to cap and recap.

Quote:

4) altar holding (as a permanent victory condition in hoh) - ensures that there will only ever be one optimal style build in HA. Think, tons of enchants - probably a 3 monk backline, maybe a ton of spirits, probably a Rt spike with defensive spirits. Hey, maybe zergway will make a comeback...with MONKS! Who knows yet.

Altar holding in HoH wouldn't be the end of the world IF: the claim resource time was kept short, and the cap range was the same size as it is today, making unbreakable body blocks impossible, and IF the same system of points was kept instead of a last minute spike and cap netting the win for an easily inferior team.

For the sake of discussion, would that be a fair compromise?

It's not the ideal situation, but yes it certainly would be a fair compromise, but be aware that a point system would result in matches where you would have to resign because they became unwinnable, recapping would be significantly less effective, and if SoC was nerfed ninja spiking the ghost at the last minute would most likely fail, also unbreakable bodyblocks cannot happen unless the circumstances stated above occur.

gasmaskman · Mar 29, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Like I said before, the only thing that is really required is the removal of kill count from both Courtyard and Broken Tower. Having it in rotation on HoH isn't so bad.

Jessyi · Mar 29, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Well Randomway, it's nice to see you addressing some things I've actually said

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

That's why there are other game modes on the way to halls, how do you intend to make it past relic run maps? how do you intend to get kills on annihilation? what do you intend to do to take the altar in the first place? What happens if you fail to capture the altar first on other altar maps? If you want to waste your own time and give people free fame be my guest. You need defense so what, don't you need some type of defense for everything?
You also need offense and utility, and what happens when you have those things? What happens when you wasted a whole week trying to get a hall skip and cap the altar only to get owned by a build with shutdown and you get kicked out of halls?

Spikes, skips, and bad opponents drastically cut down the week long waiting period. What do you need utility for when HoH itself is only altar holding? Why do you need it when you can spike down a relic runner and rack up thier dp? You don't even need to pressure another team that much in HoH - a lot of the time the other team will be more than enough help, then you just spike thier ghost. With multiple defensive characters, or offensive characters with defense (ie paragons or bspikers as a for instance) you'd need a lot of shutdown, almost a direct counter or half counter to shut down a holding team, and remember we're trying to move away from the meta, counter and other categories of HA teams.

Quote:

The only way an unbreakable bodyblock can happen is if the holding ghost has died on the altar, or if the no ghost has claimed the altar.

lolwut? You only need one person to block a ghost - if you've got three people doing it, say beefy warriors or thumpers it's fairly easy to keep a ghost blocked for a couple of minutes. Ok, you could get aoe owned, but the smart blockers will spread out and let one person block so as not to strain the monks and then move in if that blocker gets killed.

Quote:

That may have been true if teams would simply hit the ghost for the entire match but that teams that know how to play this game do not do that, therefore you have to keep you own team alive as well as the hero, as well as prevent the use of harmful skills. You have to be aware of the threats around you and know when to cap and recap.

So substitute "ghost" for "other players". Shutting down multiple defensive characters while at the same time having enough offense to kill a single target is damn hard and often depends on another team for assistance. Plus you'll res on the altar if you die before time anyways - no harm done.

Quote:

It's not the ideal situation, but yes it certainly would be a fair compromise, but be aware that a point system would result in matches where you would have to resign because they became unwinnable, recapping would be significantly less effective, and if SoC was nerfed ninja spiking the ghost at the last minute would most likely fail, also unbreakable bodyblocks cannot happen unless the circumstances stated above occur.

Yeah, some point matches become unwinnable. The only change I'd make is to have the match automatically end when it becomes mathematically impossible. lol. The other teams had thier chance to kill and cap, and if they couldn't do it in 4 minutes, what difference would it make if another 4 were added? Recapping shouldn't be effective at all if we're talking about the spike and cap at the last minute method. Desparation and luck ought to be trumped by persistence and ability. Why would soc be nerfed? It's adren cost and cast time are already high. pd that shite.

-Jessyi

streets101 · Mar 29, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

8v8 or 6v6 doesnt matter if Halls doesnt go back to its traditional play style. When will anet learn.....next year maybe when everyone quits?

Patccmoi · Mar 29, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

like i suggested a while ago, what i'd see HoH be atm is:

Underworld - Deathmatch
Why - it works and it's a good map, no need to change.

Burial Mounds - Deathmatch with Priests
Why - it works and it's a good map, no need to change.

Broken Tower - Capture Points
Why - Discourages spike teams from start, and would give people a chance to experiment the game type before HoH. And it's honestly one of the hardest 3 ways for a bad team to win as it requires good communication and coordination which most FotM Pugs tend to severly lack, so good teams shouldn't often randomly lose this map to worse teams that got lucky or w/e.

Scarred Earth - 1v1 v 1v1 Kill Count
How - Both teams have a 4/5 min kill count on each side where they rez every minute at starting location. After 4/5 mins gates open and best team on each side gets to fight each other (scores reset to 0 obviously). Add an altar (circle drawn on the ground, w/e) that you cap as you do in kill count atm and which gives +10% damage AND 1 point every minute for the holding team (this is to force engagement and not score 1 kill and kite all around the huge map). Lasts 4/5 minutes, highest score wins
Why - Cause kill counts in 1v1 can be quite fun, gives time to adapt strategy, etc. Also reincludes Scarred Earth BUT with the time limits it won't risk being like 30 min for 2 fame. It also discourages too defensive setups to some extent.

Unholy Temple - Relic Run
Why - it works and it's a good map, no need to change.

Dark Chambers - 1v1 Deathmatch with Priest
Why - it works and it's a good map, no need to change.

Courtyard - King of the Hill
Why - Gives a chance to experiment it before HoH and the map is well designed for it obviously. Discourages pure offense setups.

Sacred Temple - Relic Run
Why - it works and it's a good map, no need to change.

HoH - Rotation of King of the Hill, Murder Ball, Capture Points and Kill Count. Kill Count not being one of the major game types prior to HoH, team build kinda designed for it are much less likely to be there, and there is good strategy involved in 3 ways kill count that is nice to have still. It also discourages too defensive teams which excel at King of the Hill and could easily just fit the required utility for Murder Ball and Capture Points (both of which you don't have to score a single kill to win).

With this setup, i think no gimmick build is truly advantaged. You need varied utility and be able to adapt to many situations. There shouldn't be as much trouble with 3 ways kill count as it will happen only in HoH with teams likely less designed just for that, and in HoH the chance of having very bad teams giving the win to someone else is less likely than in Broken Tower.

All game types are kept.

For the current King of the Hills, i think a change WOULD be interesting to prevent something like 'team A held 5 times in a row at start cause they had a lot of defense and started with altar and now no matter what you do there's no chance left to win cause time is short'. Possibilities could be to raise the amount of points as the game go on (say the game lasts 8 min, first 5 minutes you gain 1 point per 30s, 6-7 minutes you gain 2 points per 30s, last minute you gain 3 points per 30s). Another possibility would be to add a bonus for altar capping working in a similar way (say capping altar grants 1 point for first 5 min, 2 points for 6-7 min and 3 points during last min). This would allow teams to have a chance to win for longer but still gives an advantage to the team that held the most before, encouraging fighting before the end of the game (i still remember the 10 min HoH where you fought only in the last 2:30...).

Those would be my suggestions if i had to rework HoH.

Morgoth the dark · Mar 29, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by streets101

8v8 or 6v6 doesnt matter if Halls doesnt go back to its traditional play style. When will anet learn.....next year maybe when everyone quits?

oh and what is traditional playstile? Iway or stupid holding builds where you roll for winning?
no ty.

OneArmedScissor · Mar 29, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

I can't bear to read anymore "arguing" about HA. Most of you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. A lot of the time, it seems like most of the posters in this forum simply skipped grade school and came straight here.

Old 8v8 stank to high RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing heaven and that's the absolute truth of the matter. The HA metabuilds were JUST as stagnated and the player base was JUST as strong/weak as it is today. There are a lot of clowns, "braindead retards" if I may, that continuously spew demands for the OLD HA with the OLD victory conditions, flaunting thier superiority as the old, over-hyped ToPK gods of yesteryear all quit the game after the changes were made to 8v8 - supposedly quitting because 8v8 was "better".

My answer(s) to that go as follows: for one, slamming my fingers in a door repeatedly for 6 hours would be more enjoyable than altar holding bullshit. People who ask for that incredibly BAD victory condition can only be doing so for ONE POSSIBLE REASON: to exploit the HELL out of it. Altar holding has always been a horrendous, terrible, awful, irredeemably shitty victory condition with no virtues whatsoever, largely because once a holding team got on the altar, you may as well resign. And hell, in HoH, you started ON the altar! You could camp there for a long, long, LONG goddamn time without a tiny iota of skill being involved in your victories.

In addition to that, everybody with a claim to some small amount of common sense should be able to conclude that only having ONE victory condition in the hall of heroes itself is a bad idea. Your average holding build can do only two things: kill other teams 1v1 and camp altars. Map skips and weak opponents push these teams to the hall, but altar holding in HoH simply feeds the HA metagame's desire for very very narrow designs in team builds. All you people screaming out for variety should be able to appreciate how little you get out of a game where you only need to do one thing to win. The would-be exploiters crying about "alliance battles" and relic runs in halls can shove it right up thier collective asses. If you don't like THOSE specific victory conditions, then please feel free to suggest some new ones, but don't try and tell me or anyone else that the HA community is better served by a single victory condition in HoH itself, because you would be so simply braindead wrong to try.

And finally, what about all those ToPK gods who fled the HA scene when it went 6v6? Who cares about those petulant children? That's all they are - people who ran away crying because they were told that they couldn't exploit their way to high rank anymore, and those of you who have stuck around as long as you have to complain are just marginally stupider than they were - at least they knew what they wanted out of this game and left when they weren't getting it. Might I add - good riddance to bad rubbish.

Now the good news - I believe HA should be 8v8. 8v8 is better, but the OLD 8v8 is a sin against God. Nobody needs to live in a world where IGAY and bspike holding shit rules the HA game. Like I've said before, altar holding blows and should never be reinstated, but I acknowledge that killcounts aren't much better (I'd say they're a tiny bit, but not worth mentioning). Does this mean that altar holding should be brought back? RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO no. Even simply deleting the 3-way maps and replacing them with another relic run and/or additional 1v1 annhilation maps or even...ugh...scarred earth would be a better choice than bringing altars back. As to HoH itself - it should never be allowed to return to a single victory condition. It's far better to encourage diverse teams that need to master mutiple tasks than to simply hand win after win to talentless scrubs.

-Jessyi

One of the best things said in this forum in quite some time. I will agree with you for the most part; the amount of inane, illogical "reasons" and debates that take place in this forum is ridiculous and absurd. They are nothing more than a plague to this forum, and we are all made dumber for reading the posts.
Why can't this forum be like the SomethingAwful forums where people are banned for being idiots and morons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Flawed logic, you have failed to prove to me that altar holding sucks, so why should I have to disprove it?

When I make a post about altar maps, it usualy includes examples of actual builds and skill abuses that took, when the anti-altar map hacks post its usualy vague references to imaginary scenarios.

Do you know the difference between the terms subjective and objective? You tend to debate the subjective as if it were stone cold fact 9 times out of 10. Honestly, graduate from high school and take a couple of college courses to up your intelligence by +10.

I will say it again: you are the official forum sh*tter. As such, on behalf of the Guild Wars Guru community, please stop posting.

Nubcake · Mar 29, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

I will say it again: you are the official forum sh*tter. As such, on behalf of the Guild Wars Guru community, please stop posting.

/signed

Randomway pliz stop flaming its always a bad seed that ruins it for everyone.

The Silver Star · Mar 29, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Ok so, i havnt played Guild Wars in about 4 months, a few days ago i caught word of them rning 8v8 back. Frankly this is too late, also i found it rather "amuseing" when it was to be another "double fame weekend". So what have i learned after reading this update? well i have learned that:

A-net obviously dont learn from their mistakes instead they try to fix a problem and end up creating more. People farm fame more than farmers farm gold. Double fame also only makes the gap between lower and high ranked players larger aswell.

If you still play Guild Wars i wouldnt count on the servers being up for more than another 6 months at the speed the game is hurtling towards the ground.

Tiyuri · Mar 29, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Let's debate HA!

No wait, let's debate the nature of debates!

No wait, let's debate the natures of debates about debates!

No wait...

See
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