Curse

Hyunsai · Feb 05, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Well, I don't see why they will change Burst of agression, as the build works well with flurry or Tiger stance.

Anyway, the assassin combo system is predictable as hell. Any anti melee can work. When I don't bring condition remover, I don't complain being blinded all the time...

Makkert · Feb 05, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

What the hell? It removed skill from healers? Damn I want your copy of Shadow prison.

You can preprot, just spot the hex.

They already hit this build with the feigned nerf. I suspect shadow prison will become 10e.

Yes, it removes skill from monking duty. Before Shadow Prison, warrior movement could be tracked and a monk could act upon that with pre-protting.
But you can't pre-prot anymore watching warriormovement, since they Shadow Prison all over the place.

Blame the Monks · Feb 05, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

This is only partially OnT, but I hope the devs read this. Dervs, SF, and sins reduce the skill required to win and reduced the game to p/r/s.

Reward players who can use interrupts to shut down key skills -- don't reward ward camping spikes. Reward players who can identify targets of opportunity and pressure well -- don't reward grenth + ass burst + aoe spam. Reward monks who can preprot -- don't reward bsurge. Reward skill and discourage brainless skill spamming.

I am very disappointed with this patch. The fundamental problems remain and the game is more imba and less fun than it has been in months.

Gumby · Feb 05, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

This is only partially OnT, but I hope the devs read this. Dervs, SF, and sins reduce the skill required to win and reduced the game to p/r/s.

Reward players who can use interrupts to shut down key skills -- don't reward ward camping spikes. Reward players who can identify targets of opportunity and pressure well -- don't reward grenth + ass burst + aoe spam. Reward monks who can preprot -- don't reward bsurge. Reward skill and discourage brainless skill spamming.

I am very disappointed with this patch. The fundamental problems remain and the game is more imba and less fun than it has been in months.

Quoted For Truth

Thomas.knbk · Feb 05, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

You can preprot, just spot the hex.

This would actually work if Shadow Prison would be their only hex. In reality they will have Diversion, Shame and Freezing Gust as well. You can choose to slap a prot spirit/guardian every time you see the purple arrow, wasting a lot of energy and running the risk your preprot isn't recharged when they actually teleport. Or you can wait till your ally tells you on vent that they have Shadow Prison, but by that time they could've started spiking. Sure, you can watch the battlefield and see the sins/wars teleport (it's a pretty dominant animation), but that's not easy at all, making this skill rediculous among less skilled players. In say VD vs eF it wouldn't do much good, but you can easily farm the lower ends of the ladder with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Maybe it's one of the reason why Shield of Regeneration is now 1/4 sec cast.

Deflection

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadow Prison should actually get a buff and have a 15 second recharge.

WTF?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadowstepping in general should empty adrenaline pools. Warriors should not be teleporting equally as well as an Assassin can.

~Z

I really like this option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Making it 15e won't make warriors stop using it. Make it fail with less then x critical strikes, that'll stop them.

Making it fail with less than x critical strikes makes no sense. And if it's 15e, why would you ever take this over Beguling Haze? (You could still get a snare from an Ele)
I'm all for making it a 1 sec cast or 10 energy though.
A 1 sec cast makes it less unexpected, giving the opponents' monk that extra time to prepare themselves (finger on the infuse button).
10e would also make it way less attractive for warriors, since a full spike chain would now cost 25e (SP, Frenzy, Crit Chop, Cancel), which takes longer than 20s to recover.

*lemming* · Feb 05, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Deflection

Both are 1/4s.

Hyunsai · Feb 05, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

I can agree with the adrenaline part for Shadow step. For the energy, Dark prison is already 10 energy, but 45s recharge and 33% movement reduction. For the casting time, it would be the only shadow step with one second and too easily interruptable I think. Perhaps a 33% reduction buff?

Except for Beguiling Haze, the shadow steps at 10 energy allow you to be back to your original location, and those at 5 energy don't.

Sabe · Feb 05, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

How about "Return" = no "horns of the ox" as adjacent to ally! When cast on you or them if your fast enuf.

bungusmaximus · Feb 05, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Assassins are problem childs imo. Any char that can kill another char in 5 sec. is considered imbalanced, but killing stuff in 5 sec. is an assassins main job. If you take that away from them there is nothing left.
I was overjoyed when shield of absorption was introduced but now that they nerfed it my anti-sin counter is suddenly a lot weaker.
Its true that they don't balance around AB/RA/whatever, but I wouldn't enter either arena without a blindbitch or a monk. If you have the bad luck to have some sins in the opposite party and you didn't bring one of those it's just not funny anymore, let alone 4 of them.
I hate sins with a passion, they aren't good for a smooth game experience imo. playing against 2 or more of them is particularly stressful, if you can shake off one, theres always the other...
I don't know what to do with them because nerfing them kills the class, but ffs. don't nerf the counters then.

King Kong Monkey · Feb 05, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Shadow Prison isn't imba. It is really easy to heal because you can see who is getting spiked by the hex on him. And BoA does last long enough but if an Assa need to do his Shadow Prison, the IAS skill and his attack chain he won't got the best energy management. Also if one attack fails the others does also.

With the recent buff on Shield of Deflection it is the perfect Assassin counter (also on Warriors but they mostly don't spike alone but with Ele's and Mesmers)

Keep it the way it is. Strong but easy to counter.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 05, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Both are 1/4s.

yes, but deflection is a hundred times more effective against sins (and it's better in general) so I assumed he meant that.

And King Kong Monkey, I'll say it again, you can do that if it's the only hex in their build.

Symbol · Feb 05, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Read his post. He's talking about other people on the team supplying the hexes. He isn't talking about the glut of shadow prison sins running rampant in RA.

Effigy · Feb 05, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I can see making it either 10e or 1 sec cast, but anything beyond that is an overnerf imo. I doubt if anyone would run the skill with a 15e cost and a 30sec recharge is pushing it as well.

Legendary Battousai · Feb 06, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

"Reward players who can identify targets of opportunity " as posted above, isn't that what the SP/BoA assassin is best at? Then why punish this? Its a very useful skill combo that was nearly untouched by the skill changes, but has just become a metagame; it is easily countered but currently counters many of the other metagames because it deals damage, and halls is used to holding, not killing. Soon, this metagame will just be common, but not the only one. IMO, Shattering Assault Assassin > SP/BoA anyways. Try my build for it:

Siphon Speed, Black Spider, Shattering Assault, Black Lotus Strike, Dual Attack of Choice (*Blades of Steel, HotO, Death Blossom*), Impale, Burst of Agression, Res Sig.

This build works well in tandom with the SP/BoA or could work with another one of its type-- its much more powerful in spiking abilities because of unblockable enchantment removal, but only lacks a teleport, which isn't really important when you need to kill someone when you have two unblockable enchantment removals (each hit removes one enchantment). The combo is also interchangable to allow for quick adjustments in game... lets say a taget has Aegis on him; you manage to hit black spider and remove Aegis with Shattering Assault, and hit Black Lotus, but now he has guardian, you can wait 3 seconds for Shattering to recharge and remove it while still dealing good damage. For a Burst of Agression assassin, if they miss ONE skill, they are doomed for the rest of their combo; this assassin can miss one and still have a chance to pull off the majority of his.

Symbol · Feb 06, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Uh, the standard SP chain is BLS - twisting - BSS - blades of steel. No single interrupt will cause the whole chain to fail. The best you can hope for is to catch BSS or BLS which will kill half the combo.

Riotgear · Feb 06, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Posted this in the other thread, but one solution may be to make Black Lotus Strike a lead attack instead of an off-hand.

(And no, making BSS an off-hand wouldn't have an effect, because then the combo would just be BLS/Horns/Falling/Twisting)

Consider that a large reason this combo works so well is because it doesn't require a lead at all to launch two duals. The reason the Golden line can't do this isn't so much that they're worse skills (even though they are), but because Golden Lotus Strike is a lead. The only way to do offhand-dual-offhand-dual with the Golden line is GPS/Horns/Falling/Whatever. Which is, by the way, extremely expensive.

The only other way to do two duals without a lead?
[skill]Palm Strike[/skill]

scamPOR · Feb 07, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Lets see... who to listen to... Jim from Val or some random internet "pros" thats a tough one.

Legendary Shiz · Feb 07, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Don't touch BoA it's fine. And tbh, I don't see how monks don't catch *MOST* eurospikes outside of the fact they aren't overly good. It's such an obvious spike, that should be either to 1. preprot or 2. infuse.

Shadow Prison is fine, sins were developed in this game to do two things. One, shadowstepping. Two, to take a kill a single target in seconds. IMO, Shadow Prison seems to fit exactly what the class was made for. Sins DON'T see play outside of a Shadow Prison in todays meta, so why destroy one of the few things sins have had going for them since their creation?

Riotgear · Feb 07, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Sins DON'T see play outside of a Shadow Prison in todays meta, so why destroy one of the few things sins have had going for them since their creation?

They saw play as base gankers for quite some time thanks to AoD.

Why destroy it? Because the concept of the class sucks? As I asked earlier, how do you make a class designed to be able to spike a player to death by itself effective without being broken?

Zuranthium · Feb 07, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

WTF?

Shadow Prison should be a 15 second recharge. It fits perfectly with the recharge of Twisting Fangs and Impale that way. Everyone complains about the SP/BoA build but it isn't even fully effective for true competitive matches without the spike being on a 15 second timer as opposed to a 20 second timer.

The skill should have a 10 energy cost, though.

~Z