Curse

Riotgear · Feb 03, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

I'm not posting this in the Skill Changes forum as it's not in the actual skill changes list for this round. If that's not a good reason, then I apologize for my obvious stupidity and request that this thread get moved there.

Originally showing up in less-organized fields of play, the A/W Shadow Prison/Burst of Aggression build and its variants have traditionally been one of the most brainless ganker/skirmish builds ever created, with the kind of damage frontload you normally need several players to get. Running them anywhere without the guarantee of monk support lets you get kills just by targetting someone, pushing 1+2,3,4,5,6, hitting the Feigned Neutrality/Shadow Refuge button and running the other direction.

Later, Shadow Prison also showed up in GvG as a convenient way for warriors to spike without having to worry about silly things like kiting or positioning. Critical Chop chewed on a nerf, but it's still a Eurospike favorite.

And more recently, I think there's been at least one SP/BoA sin in almost every HOH game for at least the past hour. Several teams are running two. The same phenomenon is occurring, simply find someone who's out of range or on a team with overpressured healers, run your finger down your number keys, and collect your kill, because no one can really do anything about it without either immediate healer support or a block stance.

So now comes the question, do BoA and/or SP need to be addressed in the near future?

EDIT: Eight hours later, it's still in practically every game.

Morganas · Feb 03, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Shadow prison is a problem IMO, but it doesn't necessarily need a direct nerf. Buffing blessed light or divert hexes to 1/4 second cast time would give a good counter to the spike.

Jim1 · Feb 03, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

So now comes the question, do BoA and/or SP need to be addressed in the near future?

Yes.
All Shadow Prison does is removes skill from attackers and healers alike (why learn to preprot, if you can't), so it's pretty retarded.

Bankai · Feb 03, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

What the hell? It removed skill from healers? Damn I want your copy of Shadow prison.

You can preprot, just spot the hex.

They already hit this build with the feigned nerf. I suspect shadow prison will become 10e.

suiraCLAW · Feb 03, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

I completely agree that Shadow prison needs a nerf, for the reason stated by Riotgear.

But, keep in mind that one copy of the buffed Shields of Deflection on a decent monk limits the use of SP/BoA in an 6v6/7v7 fight. A decent monk with an decent energy pool (with focus swap options) should be able to stop the combo 75% of the time.

I'd like to see a small nerf like this using 10 Energy / 0.25 sec activation time / 30 sec recharge.

God Apprentice · Feb 03, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Pre veiling ftw in that second you remove the hex his combo fails. or run a Divert Hexes monk since I have been seeing sins use expose defenses and sp. You can also use NR against the hexes

I myself have run SP assassin and it is not mindless imo, if you miss you lose energy and your combo stops, so you better back off, lest a warrior wisens up and targets you. It's a good idea to pre prot your monks prior to an assassin coming in. I do not understand why builds these days show monks using Inspired Hex, it is not good anymore, it was good back in the 8v8 days but not now. The recharge versus Veil is worse

Skye Marin · Feb 04, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I wouldn't mind a knock to BoA, but in the meantime, there are plenty of options to defend against it. Mostly blocking the attacks.

In HvH (where Burst Assassins frequent), I put Signet of Clumsiness on Norgu, and not a single Assassin has been able to get a chain off. It's a good time.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 04, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Ha needs to learn about blind mechanics.

Not that I don't disagree with you.

Living Parasite · Feb 04, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

HA has just become a spikefest/slaughterfest/nukingfest that doesn't have party room for defensive measures such as blind. Only blind I have seen has come in the form of Shadowsong.

FoxBat · Feb 04, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Nerfing shadow prision for warriors... maybe, no comment.

But assassins are now actually seeing play, with a not-as-powerful BoS, and you want to eliminate them? They are still as easy to counter as ever, just with some serious consequences attached if you don't.

If you want to change anything, maybe kill burst of agression's duration without a strength spec, but you'd have to drag it all the way down to maybe 2 for it to matter.

Riotgear · Feb 04, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

But assassins are now actually seeing play, with a not-as-powerful BoS, and you want to eliminate them?

Not-as-powerful? You don't even need BoS to take down a 60AL (or even 70AL) from full health with it, running Horns/TF instead of TF/BoS still works fine. SP/BoA was earning plenty of complaints before it started seeing play in HA, it's just that now it's finally in the spotlight so now there's some perspective.

Tiger Stance could probably be swapped in even if BoA gets affected somehow. Bumping Shadow Prison's recharge would be a nice start, though I personally can't stand the concept behind the skill regardless.

FoxBat · Feb 04, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

SP/BoA was earning plenty of complaints before it started seeing play in HA, it's just that now it's finally in the spotlight so now there's some perspective.

Good monks owned it hard, and they often still own the new version. One restore condition or two prot spells was enough to save a target. That's why it works well in RA, sortof TA, AB, aspenwood and the like, places with zero to one monks and mostly poor coordination.

Sins only role in GvG before this update was base ganking, and none at all in HA. It previously pwned monks with bad reaction times and no-one else.

Kool Pajamas · Feb 04, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Its a good build but its not that hard to beat. Maybe a small nerf, perhaps to the energy of shadow prison.

Although ive always wanted burst of agrression to have a lower min value. Ive never believed a primary attribute skill should be useful as a secondary profession. But maybe thats just me.

lightblade · Feb 04, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Maybe it's one of the reason why Shield of Regeneration is now 1/4 sec cast.

Lorinda · Feb 04, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Blind, Diversion, Interupt on the lead/offhand attack. GG

Some sins are really easy to beat up. This is one of them..

oh Sig of Humility, price of pride (no energy for the other attacks)

drekmonger · Feb 04, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Burst of Aggression shouldn't be on the bar of anything cept a warrior, otherwise the downside is meaningless. Reduce duration to 1 at Strength 0, increase duration at Strength 16 to compensate.

Burstway Sins should have been nerfed this round of testing. Hopefully it will be so the end of the weekend.

Arkantos · Feb 04, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Make shadow prison either 10e, 1s cast, or longer RC. BoA is fine as it is.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 04, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I just realized that I played against these guys in HA the other day. (I honestly don't pay attention to anything that's going on in HA).

They were kind of a pain in the ass, but guardian was pretty fun.

Yes, I ran guardian on a monk in HA. My elite was Shield of Regen o_O.

Anyway, I could monk through it and I'm a bad monk, so I really don't think it's that big an issue.

Shendaar · Feb 04, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

I can't believe how many people complain about the SP/BoA build. Not only is it one of the most predictable build ever, it just so happens to be an Assassin build, making it even more easy to counter. It's not like you have to bring some special skills that serves no purpose beside countering that build either.

Kenru · Feb 04, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

When I play assassin, I never go for SP/BoA. It's a good combo, yes, but the disadvantages to it outway the advantages in my opinion. The fault lies mostly with SP. Why? It's a one-way shadow step with a 20 second recharge. There's no room to improvise with it. Once you use it on a target, you're stuck with that target for 20 seconds assuming you don't kill him. It also has a short duration compared to the alternative I use.

The build is very limited with 20 second recharges without outside help. Yes, it's powerful, and yes, it's destructive, but the lack of versatility in it allows you to easily defeat it even beyond the normal assassin counters.

The only time this build hurts me is when I'm without monk support and the sin manages to completely surprise me.

The build itself degrades the player if it is the only build the player can play as an assassin effectively. No nerf needed.