Curse

Bankai · Mar 29, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Excellent post, written in a way a developer can actually use. Good Job.

QFT.

I also agree with ensign on most points, but the soul reaping. I think a sufficient nerf would be, that spirits 'disappear' when the same spirit is cast nearby, instead of dying. So if a spirit of bloodsong is alive, and it's killed, they get half the energy, but if another bloodsong is cast, they don't get it.

deadmonkey4u · Mar 29, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Im all for a gole nerf as well as some major nerfage in the hex/soul reaping catagory.

Moving Gole to e-storage
Slightly nerfign a few hexes especially warrior ones
Take out the getting energy from spirits part

I think this would improve gvg in my point of view quite a bit. Tired of playing hex teams every game.

sir lockt · Apr 02, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Last weekend I had a discussion about monk gear. I opposed the use of +30/-2 energy gear on a monk, even for short cast swaps, since my traditional point of view on GvG forbids its use, my reasoning was simple: your energy loss on the swap even reduces your chance to chope with pressure and pressure is the meta of today...

...he countered it with the current type of play: two equal teams stand next to eachother and build up pressure. You swap up to hold out a few secs longer and wait untill the first opponent dies.

This is the shape of GvG of these days (thank God observer mode shows me still some guilds refuse to play like this!), the one who builds pressure longer, the one who builds pressure faster wins... counters are often the same and skill is limited in all cases.

Credit for the OP by touching this subject and pointing out some key points! Also Ensign put some good points on paper...for me its easy: Izzy, ctrl c, ctrl z...

imo especially the maps, Soul reaping and hex durations are the main issues atm. on the maps: i would not touch the maps an sich, but more the rotation.

ss1986v2 · Apr 02, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

i think everyone is in consensus as far as the balance issues go, for the first time ive seen in a while.

jade has to see a change. one on corrupted wouldnt hurt but i dont mind it so much. i like not having every single map just being a clone of some set specs. having a map that is pro split (corrupted) and another that is pro stand (burning) isnt so bad. i do agree with ensign that there really should be some kind of thumbs up/down system to help keep these maps in check though. map shouldnt determine the winner, but that doesnt mean one cant give some kind of advantage over another.

i think the bigger issue with these pro split maps is the use of recall. i dont mind the shadow stepping mechanic so much, but it needs to have its limitations. warping half-way across a map just screams imba. you could just hit recall with the bat, but id rather see a change (note: small change) to the mechanics instead. if not, i think recall at least needs to be addressed.

GoLE is in a weird spot. its by far the best energy management available to many caster classes, and its unlinked. but it kinda wins by default these days. does that mean it shouldnt see a change? no. but figuring out what the change should be is the issue. if you do touch GoLE, id like to see a buff to the inspiration line. if you are going to gimp energy management again, give us something somewhere else.

soul reaping is another "duh!" issue. remove the energy gain from spirits and the problem is fixed. doesnt cause the pve crowd to rage, but it addresses the unlimited energy pools in many gimmicky builds.

melee hate hexes could also use a touch from the bat. just scale down the durations and maybe have them scale with investment as well. both the failure hexes need a hit. and maybe a tap to faith as well, but nothing radical. no need to completely removal hexes viability, just bring them back toward the realm of balance.

Relambrien · Apr 02, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

i think everyone is in consensus as far as the balance issues go, for the first time ive seen in a while.

That should be a MASSIVE hint that skill balances are in desperate need of change right now. When everyone agrees on something, something is wrong.

Patccmoi · Apr 02, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Good post overall and i really agree with most of what's been said.

I definitely agree that a thumbs up/down system for map would greatly improve how ladder goes instead of picking your own map. Maps encouraging a certain strategy are actually interesting when you can't decide to pick them yourself, and if your build really can't stand certain maps (say straight 8v8 where you can't split) you could thumb those down and be sure not to face that trouble.

For SR, while i'd rather see what was suggested before that SR gives regen instead of net energy, removing the energy gained from spirits would at least settle a big part of the problem quickly without forcing too many changes.

For hexes, i think that single hex removal should recharge faster so that they can manage to dig to the covered hexes without requiring elite, and debilitating hexes should definitely have a much lower duration so that it's not just hex stacking. Their cost/cast time/recharge could be reduced to compensate. In a sense, the hex system would be better if it was closer to the condition system. Not as easy to apply/remove (i don't want a Draw Hexes!), but still not that different in that respect. Shorter duration/recharge on both hexes and hex removal (Single hex removal at least...) can make much more dynamic and interesting play. Degen hexes aren't that much of a problem in general though as degen doesn't 'need' to be removed and can be Heal Partied/Dwayna's Kissed and those don't need to be balanced as much as the debilitating ones (Migraine/AC, 'Miss' hexes, Punishment hexes).

And for Shadow Step i also suggested to some guildies not long ago that it'd be nice if Shadow stepping was reduced to Earshot/agro bubble range. This way it will never be abused to the point where you can Shadow Step cross map to safety. If say you're snared by a water hex and you teleport an agro bubble away, they can still catch up to you. It wouldn't change anything to all the direct shadowsteps like Return, SP, Death Charge, etc.

Matt CAPS · Apr 03, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

yea lets all jump on the QQ train and remove para rits sins and that crap and put in the original stuff that was the good stuff. i may sound dumb as hell but just take out the non-core proffesions and continually update and add BALANCED skills to the classes and maybe update and add some maps maps that are splittable but are good for 8v8 also. Expample of a map like this Druids.

Patrick Smit · Apr 04, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Ensign, I like your list of problems and solutions. However on the hex part I'm not too sure. The "wreck u hexes are effectively removed by a number of good hex removal tools (expel, divert, and purge signet being the prominent ones). I think the wreck hex problem is intertwined with spiritspam necro teams, the hexes are being fueled by infinite energy sources. However removing this problem would likely result in wreckhexes leaving the game, or much more tactical play, making sure the hexes will stick by disabling purges and such. In the finals of the tournament both parties used hexes extensivelyy, not fueled by SR, and I am not convinced it looked broken to me. Yes they are crippling characters, but so do dazes, cripples and blinds. The latter being removed much more readily tho. One could also opt to prevent they even land on your physicals, the majority of the activation times of those spells is that long that u cannot state they cannot be prevented.

Therefore I think hexes should not be tempered with untill the renewed SR is eveluated. I think you should really discuss how to handle these hexes then just nerf them, do they need a recharge adjustment? If duration is shortened we still give them the same activation time? The options are manifold.

FoxBat · Apr 04, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

I think the wreck hex problem is intertwined with spiritspam necro teams, the hexes are being fueled by infinite energy sources.

Um, there are a number of solid GvG hex builds that don't use spirits at all. You don't need that much energy to stack hexes.

The ones that are using spirits are just using soul barbs/icy to spike and investing most of their infinite energy into infinite heal instead of shutdown.

Shmanka · Apr 04, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

I'm glad hexes were listed in these problems. I have a huge concern about these. I understand that possibly guildwars wants something more devastating at points in time yet I do not think the fact of alot of these long-term hexes actually are balanced compared to conditions or environment affects. There are 3 fundamental problems that I find with hexes.

1st the amount of removal: The lowest cooldown for a single hex removal non-elite is 12 seconds. Being Holy Veil if I am correct. Although the recharge on over 60% of the hexes by far surpass this. As a comparison Mending Touch is 2 seconds and heals for the removal of condition component.

2nd Signet of Humility: This was pointed out as well, this non-elite skill completely disables any elite for the exact time period whether you use mantra of inscriptions or whatever else you prefer. Signet of Humility itself in all respect should be of elite status, and more powerful as it was. Being a non elite and energy management line this skill fits in too perfectly and is a 100% guarantee what no matter what monk/mesmer elite skills the opposing side has your hexes will eventually dominate.

3rd AoE Hexes: I believe this is just ridiculous for the fact that Blind on Blinding Surge was modified in respect yet haste has its own AoE with little removal. Also I believe it is actually time that Spiteful Spirit got a modification to it as well. All the necromancers in PvE use it or are distinguished from parties, SS on any character makes them worse and damaging everyone around them as well is a little nerve wracking. I understand the concept of "just let it get removed and don't do anything till then" yet that gives the opposing team so much "gate time" of relieved pressure that it should stir as much debate as Aegis IMO. Suffering as well as ridiculous as it sounds having a guaranteed -2 degen across a team is something that should not be, I feel this way because it acts like a cheap cover and makes LoD all the better reason to use. Nothing against LoD it just seems that this 3 monk backline is the only solution since so many of these builds ruin your entire party and create the "3 defence/5 offence" characters every gvg build has. This is not only a problem with SS but multiple other hexes with lower attack speed or increase the miss %.

AoE should exist but I believe only on Elementalists and it should be in pure damage, hexes cast over or can affect a whole party as minute the effect is imbalanced due to the fact there is a huge lack of removal, and the only effective removal is put to shame by a non elite "slip-in".

EDIT: I am actually incorrect on 12 seconds for the hex removal. the correct answer is [skill]remove hex[/skill]

Patrick Smit · Apr 04, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

@ Foxbat, Yes and as i said , there are "solid" counters to it as well as i recall there were two purge signets and divert hexes in each build, maybe in EW there was an additional expel hexes as well. The question was if such wreck hexes are imbalanced in such games?

Using S barbs/recurring followed by a number af fast casted hexes has nothing to do with the complaint about wreck hexes. Its just a regular spike as any other is. for soul barbs icy you do not need so much energy management, just simple 5 e spells will suffice. Hexway (or should i call it jagged way?) in GVG was however using spits (and minions) to fuel spamming of their more expensive hexes then that are used in SBIV spikes (and healing as well, tho some teams used traditional monks as well). Basically u could cast a 10 e spell each 7 secs or so, with some managemnt u can increase that a bit so to 15 e per seven secs. Now with SR abuse u get each 7 seconds 10-14 energy without spits even. u can spam relentlesly, covering all your hexes with parasitic, to prevent single hex removal.

Shmanka · Apr 04, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

@ Foxbat, Yes and as i said , there are "solid" counters to it as well as i recall there were two purge signets and divert hexes in each build, maybe in EW there was an additional expel hexes as well. The question was if such wreck hexes are imbalanced in such games?

That whole notation derives the "Bring Skill A or Skill B kills you and you suck" kind of GvG where variety and effectiveness split into different worlds. I think Ensign hit the ball a little but it needs to keep rolling, hexes should not last as long as they do, and should not wreck a target relentlessly so far that is it unusable or disadvantageous to even swing. SS/reckless/PoF etc singlehandedly make relieved pressure almost 100% guarantee and therefor can focus on soft targets. The answer is what you just said earlier, 2 purge signets, sadly with skills on the mesmer or ranger for easy quick access interrupt to something as long as 2 seconds really isn't a viable debate.

Hexes should be more powerful then conditions, but not as ridiculous as they are now.

Soul reaping is a huge gimmick used in HA, yet in GvG I do not have a huge problem with spirits, maybe I have not been exposed to it as much.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 04, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Soul reaping is a huge gimmick used in HA, yet in GvG I do not have a huge problem with spirits, maybe I have not been exposed to it as much.

You watched the tourney?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Apr 04, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

3rd AoE Hexes: I believe this is just ridiculous for the fact that Blind on Blinding Surge was modified in respect yet haste has its own AoE with little removal. Also I believe it is actually time that Spiteful Spirit got a modification to it as well. All the necromancers in PvE use it or are distinguished from parties, SS on any character makes them worse and damaging everyone around them as well is a little nerve wracking. I understand the concept of "just let it get removed and don't do anything till then" yet that gives the opposing team so much "gate time" of relieved pressure that it should stir as much debate as Aegis IMO. Suffering as well as ridiculous as it sounds having a guaranteed -2 degen across a team is something that should not be, I feel this way because it acts like a cheap cover and makes LoD all the better reason to use. Nothing against LoD it just seems that this 3 monk backline is the only solution since so many of these builds ruin your entire party and create the "3 defence/5 offence" characters every gvg build has. This is not only a problem with SS but multiple other hexes with lower attack speed or increase the miss %.

AoE should exist but I believe only on Elementalists and it should be in pure damage, hexes cast over or can affect a whole party as minute the effect is imbalanced due to the fact there is a huge lack of removal, and the only effective removal is put to shame by a non elite "slip-in".

I think you're missing the point completely, degen hexes are fine, suffering is definately not over powered.

They can be countered easily, by just healing through it.

SS is also fine imo, the damage isnt that amazing (unless you frenzy through it at vod) and it doesnt really shut you down at all (I would argue that spoil victor is still a bit strong though). The point we were getting at however are 'shutdown hexes' like price/spirit of failure and reckless haste, apparently Izzy and Morello have realized this and made changes accordingly.

I really like almost all of the balance changes from the update notes, GJ there Izzy and Morello, you guys don't get enough credit