Curse

NeHoMaR · Mar 13, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

About that people still thinking rank mean nothing, please could someone give me for some days a r12 account, I think I will be invited to "a little" more teams "maybe"? or to a good guild? I have a r10 friend in a very good (GvG) guild (I will keep the name secret) and I KNOW I play better than him every single build in this game (being r6), also, I know HOW that r10 was done! (keeping secret too)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

...Difference between you and me? I actively formed groups.

Congratulations about your english, because being myself a latin-american, I can't form serious teams because the lack of a fluid (talking) english for TS/Vent; So I need pugs; I can't be the leader in an "english" world (and if international is empty, imagine Spanish District) the only exception are some builds where TS/Vent is not needed, and I don't see too much of that out there at this moment (I am talking about being the leader; I can play most of builds, spikes, and understand basic english)... Oh, and congratulations about your guild cape color (I am not being sarcastic)

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

...Sorry that I misunderstood, I'll leave your HA thread.

Thank of God you are leaving my thread! I thought for a moment this thread was doomed to an inevitable close. And this is not a HA thread, it just turned to HA because is the more affected part of casual PvP at this moment.

Drewfense · Mar 13, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Rank doesn't make a good guild. Look at the recruitment forums for the r50-150 guilds on teamquitter.com or team-iq.net. They are full of r3 minus individuals, much lower than your rank. Rank is largely unimportant for application to most guilds. I joined Nuclear Launch Detected, my first silver cape guild, while I still had a bambi. Derka joined MH with a bambi. There are tons of examples.

There are the occasional r9+ guilds that wont let anyone in who isn't high ranked. Dryder's guild last season (nova?) was r9+. They went to #1 on the ladder, but fell like a rock once the real teams start playing. Black Mischief's guilds, most recently [Izzy] and prior IRC carebear, have been tremendously more successful than Dryder's r9+ group. What was the composition of [Izzy]'s membership? Low ranked players off of IRC.

As for the second part of your post, wtb guild wars wellfare? All crappy and lazy players are given free fame? I can't believe you are using language as an excuse (ignoring that you are posting this on english forums). I am sorry that guild wars isn't more popular in your area. Maybe anet should distribute free copies of the game in spanish speaking areas so you can have people to pug with. What did you expect to get out of this thread when you started it?

As a side note...try international district sometime...EVERYONE is there...really...it is always 2+ districts with 3-5 during various prime times. In comparison, American districts are 2 at most.

Franco Power · Mar 13, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

About rank discrimination, please cry more, most good and high ranked players play with friends or people with similar rank because they want to have fun and win, not waste time with idiots, if Anet starts giving me a 20 for everytime I babysit low ranked players who don't have skills unlocked, then go for it, but this isn't work it's a game.

About the latin america thing, Hi, I'm portuguese, I have a accent, I talk on vent, I many times form and call a lot for my teams, by the way, you are writting your english seems to be fine to me, also a friend of mine Sangre real is spanish and r11, many people from [FAHE] (heroes factory) are all spanish and all r10+, don't give me that I can't get rank because I'm latin or whatever, in fact, there are so many high ranked people who aren't english, that has got to be the lamest excuse of not forming groups I have ever heard.

Eilsys · Mar 14, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I agree with the people who said the move to 6v6 killed a lot of variety. I think it also removed a lot of the utility teams would bring along... you could afford to take a new player, stick him on a Word Monk and go from there. I got started in PvP by playing an RC in HA, seeing the builds, seeing what worked, what didn't. Now you can't afford to take inexperianced people because there's a huge rift in knowledge between old players and new ones. PUGging was never really a great way to make fame, but it was at least fun... now I don't even try, since balanced just isn't as viable as it used to be.

NeHoMaR: Rank also means you've been around for a while, and probably can play the slot you're asked to. It also means people have been willing to put up with you.

I know Tiyuri (of Wee Free Men, don't know how to make the tag, sorry) let me and some other people in my old guild play with his groups (which were R9+), just because we were a fun group. And (as another example) Squidget guests for my current guild even though we're not very good at all, just because... well I'm not really sure why.

You say "how can I play GvG if I have no friends in game AND I am not in a guild?"... well, you can't. It's a team game, make some friends. Join a guild... there's plenty out there.

NeHoMaR · Mar 14, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I am not saying being latin is impossible to make rank, where I said that? AND, I am talking about being a leader (forming groups) answering to a post some lines above. Please don't confuse yourself and don't confuse people reading this thread. And PLEASE, to everybody, don't post just for argue about one of my posts, that's the reason all threads end in flaming and closed. The REAL purpose of this thread is talk about: PVP for casual players, for everyone, not for myself in particular.

Div · Mar 14, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

About that people still thinking rank mean nothing, please could someone give me for some days a r12 account, I think I will be invited to "a little" more teams "maybe"? or to a good guild? I have a r10 friend in a very good (GvG) guild (I will keep the name secret) and I KNOW I play better than him every single build in this game (being r6), also, I know HOW that r10 was done! (keeping secret too)

Rank means nothing when talking about the skill of players, or when you are actively trying to form a group. I started playing HA after the summer of 2006, which is a really late time for entry. However, I started making my own groups, tried to work to beat the popular meta, and then went on to be more noticed amongst some of the people I played with/against. Though not nearly as successful as Rep Protein (also because I started much later too), it still shows it is highly possible to get to a good position because of your skill alone. Even if you can't speak perfect English, if you can communicate the basic strategy, you should form a group and try to lead it to victory. Trying to join a group is often hopeless (in fact, I've gotten rejected/kicked from some r3 groups even now because I refuse to give in to the rank stereotype and show my title). I mostly get invited by people that have seen me play or know that I am (hopefully) somewhat decent into r9/10+ groups.

NeHoMaR · Mar 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I've gotten rejected/kicked from some r3 groups even now because I refuse to give in to the rank stereotype and show my title

Good luck with that idea! You will need it!

BTW, I am thinking removing the rank title is not a bad idea at all, at least if they keep the emotes, you know, the old way! show emote!

[I remember "faking" my rank showing the deer, telling everybody I was rank 5, when indeed I was rank 3; Now (without titles) I could fake rank 8, being rank 6]

And Arenanet, please unbalance game! No, I am not crazy, I am serious. Everytime you balance game, everytime some people leave some PvP areas. I KNOW balance is good, but a lot of over-popular builds are good too, you know, for keep PvP areas full. All this paragraph seem like a big joke, but isn't.

Drizdee · Mar 14, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I'm probably just talking bullshite now. But maybe balancing builds isent a needed step. Ofcource a few skills are overpowered, im not doubting that. And I dont think anyone is. Ever.

Adding counters to overplayed builds is maybe a better way to go.

Examples:
Skills to make armor ignoring spikes count in armor
Skills to make lifestealing impossible (20s recharge, 5sec immunity, shout, earshot)
Interupts for things like Searing Flames. To be able to interupt even on short casttime skills (there are a few allready in game, how about adding some more with lower durations and casttimes, 0.25 and 2s duration would work)

Franco Power · Mar 14, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

because being myself a latin-american, I can't form serious teams

Maybe my english is wrong too but isn't that what you said or am I reading wrong?

Quote:

BTW, I am thinking removing the rank title is not a bad idea at all,

Maybe for someone who has little over 1000 fame.

Quote:

nd Arenanet, please unbalance game! No, I am not crazy, I am serious.

Sure, maybe Sissy boys or the marvelous superheroes will start playing again and holding by spamming fertile season spirits on the altar, fun times, balance suxs!.

Quote:

Examples:
Skills to make armor ignoring spikes count in armor

If armor counted for armor ignoring spikes, then they wouldn't be armor ignoring will they? And besides, blood spike and obsidian flame already have long casting time and aren't hard to beat.

Quote:

Skills to make lifestealing impossible (20s recharge, 5sec immunity, shout, earshot)

Sure and we could also make skills to make infuse impossible, or interrupts impossible

Quote:

Interupts for things like Searing Flames. To be able to interupt even on short casttime skills (there are a few allready in game, how about adding some more with lower durations and casttimes, 0.25 and 2s duration would work)

If your mesmer or ranger can't interrupt searing flames then I suggest you get a new one that sucks less.

Peace

Effendi Westland · Mar 14, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

In my opinion it is because new players to HA are turned off by it really quick.

Which has everything to do with the age of the game. Almost 2 years of guild wars have made a large group of players capable of playing builds that make sure that anything that isn't organised and well-thought out gets slaughtered quick.

This isn't a problem to new players when above group is a minority. The chances of meeting players like that in the early stages were smaller, so even paladin-way stood a chance. When the group starts to become equal in size to the inexperienced it starts to become noticable, new players need builds that work now or they can only beat a rare team. IWAY comes to my mind now, or ViM to a lesser degree, inexperienced start playing set builds to increase their chances. This has a problem for the other new players, now not only the experienced beat them always, they suffer alot more losses from other inexperienced teams. This is also where random forming for fun kinda dies, and going there for results kicks in. Which results in less new people caring for HA, just cause it's less fun for new players.

Skip ahead and you have a majority of experienced players who play this gametype mostly, and new HA players get into the gametype through friends and guilds who ask them to join in their established group, not by playing with pugs.

Happens to other competative team games as well. Try playing warcraft 3 for ladder with a friend and you will fight team after team of been-playing-for-a-few-years-too-many, you will lose alot and that will kill your interest.

krakenstar · Mar 14, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

Which has everything to do with the age of the game. Almost 2 years of guild wars have made a large group of players capable of playing builds that make sure that anything that isn't organised and well-thought out gets slaughtered quick.

Exactly right. That's why AB & RA formats still thriving - the learning curve is a lot lower in those 2 formats. Really the only solution to ease this problem is a better and more organized knowledge base. The gap will be still there, but at least it will be easier to close that gap.

Lord Mendes · Mar 14, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

Sure, maybe Sissy boys or the marvelous superheroes

When were they ever called "Marvelous" superheroes?

Skuld · Mar 14, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

The guild, marvel superheroes

Franco Power · Mar 14, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Marvel, marvelous, I can't remember exactly, it was way too long ago back when tombs was fresh lol

NeHoMaR · Mar 15, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

...Happens to other competative team games as well. Try playing warcraft 3 for ladder with a friend and you will fight team after team of been-playing-for-a-few-years-too-many, you will lose alot and that will kill your interest.

Well, I was 8 months in a guild with all members with the "interest killed" in HA (near 100 members)

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

Which has everything to do with the age of the game. Almost 2 years of guild wars have made a large group of players capable of playing builds that make sure that anything that isn't organised and well-thought out gets slaughtered quick.

Exactly right. That's why AB & RA formats still thriving - the learning curve is a lot lower in those 2 formats. Really the only solution to ease this problem is a better and more organized knowledge base. The gap will be still there, but at least it will be easier to close that gap.

Hey, I see more blame in Nightfall than in how old is the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

Maybe my english is wrong too but isn't that what you said or am I reading wrong?

form = start = leader (that sentence doesn't mean is "impossible" make rank, mean is "difficult" start and lead a new team not being a native english speaker)

twicky_kid · Mar 15, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Dying? I thought it was already dead.

My friends list is full of all pvp players. Now when I log in I might see 2-3 people on.

The guild ladder has more to do with it than HA does.

Div · Mar 15, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Good luck with that idea! You will need it!

BTW, I am thinking removing the rank title is not a bad idea at all, at least if they keep the emotes, you know, the old way! show emote!

[I remember "faking" my rank showing the deer, telling everybody I was rank 5, when indeed I was rank 3; Now (without titles) I could fake rank 8, being rank 6]

And Arenanet, please unbalance game! No, I am not crazy, I am serious. Everytime you balance game, everytime some people leave some PvP areas. I KNOW balance is good, but a lot of over-popular builds are good too, you know, for keep PvP areas full. All this paragraph seem like a big joke, but isn't.

What's wrong with the idea of not giving in to rank discrimination and stereotyping? I figured, if the group is going to kick me like that, they're not deserving anyways and will probably lose in UW. I have no problems getting into high ranked groups without needing to show title (in fact, i get into 80%+ of r9+ groups and only about 33% of r3 groups), and it's the skill that matters, not the little title or emote you show.

wuzzman · Mar 23, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

First let me say it from a newcomers point of view:

Casual PvP is not dying. There are always a lot of newbies testing waters in the most casual formats. Just look at RA, AB, etc you will find it always packed. What is dying is most likely the higher end PvP. The problem is that there is a huge disconnect between the top and the bottom, in terms of knowledge base, skill base,learn curve required, lack of will/time to properly teach, elitism, frustration, and perhaps there exist no simpler mechanic IN GAME for someone who is interested in PvP to actually step into the higher levels from the RA and ABs.

In fact, RA and AB, the casual format are so poo-pooed upon that joke threads exists in every forum of almost every GW fansite I visit. But they ARE n00bs in the very true original sense of the word - Newbies, new to the game. Yes, you were once one too, and there are a LOT more skills to choose from to make even sillier mistakes with these days. Some will never be serious PvP players as they have no will, time, and/or inclination, but some will or can become your friend or respected foe in the high end if properly cheered.

The vets in the game has played 3 different release, absorbing the skill sets, metas of all the formats, step by step, as it evolved. They already know, a lot of them first hand what worked(works) against what, and what doesn't. They have spent all the time to learn and experienced these things. However, because they learned it via experience those knowledge can be summed up as Unconscious Competence. IE, "there are no easy way to explain it, but this the way it works you noob, listen up your way is just... dumb/wrong". Until we get more vets with Conscious Competency and is willing to teach/document that competence, that bridge will get wider as time goes on.

Arguably the most well organized body of information on GW is the guildwiki, hailed by most experienced PvP veterans (vets on this board) as the work of N00bs. While this might be true, why not help out by putting up good, solid knowledge that can help instead of insulting people who is less knowledgable, but yet is willing to spend time to attempt to help? Arguably the most well respected PvP body of knowledge lie in Guru. Have you look at the date of the last builds written on this site's database?

Some recent examples here:

Making A better warrior For PVP- A guide
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10128699

sure, wasn't the best ever written. but the authors caveats were completely ignored. This is written obviously for *very* new players, even just days/weeks old. Knowledge the best built in layers. Those players will absorb that article test it, learn more and get another guide they can test and learn from. There really isn't any need to bash it. It was bashed so much that the author requested the admin to close the thread.

How about this one?

Moriz's Tips for Tards: Warrior
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115806

Very nice guide. However could the title be nicer? I'm sure some new player already is very discouraged by losing (without understanding why) continuously. I found the guild very helpful, but I know that there are others that just can't swallow the thought of that's what their vets think of them - not just ignorant (ie lack exp & knowledge), but retarted.

Do you know why W/Mo mending/barfullofmoskills is so popular for newbs? Because its one of the few builds they can survive for longer then 10-15 secs in RA/AB. Thats how new they are.

Just an opinion, not a troll.

too bad the majority of pvp'ers don't think like you. Personally I'm very much guilty of not doing good for the community. Back in the day when I formed a group and had to kick said new/stupid player I would explain why I'm kicking him, and why he can't play a role in my group...now a year later, if your bar is totally unfixable, monk with restore life???, I would just kick you with no explanation.

The Fallen One · Apr 05, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

The problem here, I think with your casual veiw on the game, is the fact that, no matter how hard Anet tries, they can't make this game a "casual" PvP game, it's just not possible in most aspects.

To adress HA: obviously HA is dying/dead, if you compare the outpost in id1 with about three months after its release there's an obvious difference. It used to be you were lucky and had to spam forever to get into the full id1, but now it's one hit, and most of the time there's no one forming there at least as PuGs, it's all a player base and learning curve thing as previously mentioned. The only way to attract more people back to HA for Anet would be to create whole new concepts etc. b/c everyone already knows almost everything to the exact letter about the current HA. Moving on.

The reason this game isn't built for casual PvPers is really because of the knowledge it requires to be up to par with players who have learned the ins and outs of the game already. Like krakenstar says, there's no way to completly transfer all the knowledge of a player who's been playing the game for a year to a "noob". It all has to do with release dates and experience.

AB, RA, and TA are good places for newer people, but the fact is that less skill is used compared to the other areas of PvP, and the experience in these areas are barely regarded as experience at other PvP areas.

So here's a summary for you people who don't want to read my huge slab of words up there:
1)Most of these people who are casual don't play as much as "hardcore" or noncasual, whichever you prefer, people do. I personally try to be online every day for at least a little bit, but casual players generally take at least 1-2 day break up to 1 week breaks from the game. That leads up to less general experience in the long run.
2)The game has progressed past the point, in general, where you can just make your contacts and learn what you need to know to break into higherish PvP with just PuGs, because either the PuGs have moved on to going with friends they have met. The noobs of right now, and casual players, then find themselves very hard behind the times, and it hurts with the things such as the topic of this thread.
3)The only way to prove yourself to be skilled therefore, is to somehow gain the knowledge and experience you need and show it off, it's all a really annoying circle. It becomes a steep incline to new and casual players to trudge their way up to be in the same place as everyone else.

And so, the fact is, that PvP for casual PvPers *is* dying, because as much as Anet flails and tries to improve it, it's not going to get any better unless they were to totally scrap the system they're working with right now and make a new one from scratch...Which isn't going to happen.

Peace.

DutchSmurf · Apr 05, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I don't think PvP is dying for casual players at all. It is dying for the hardcore players. RA and AB are still very alive, while HA and GvG are dying. There only isn't a way to stop this because compared to ABs, GvGs aren't that fun for a casual player.
Let me try to explain this. A casual player doesn't have as much time to play the game as a hardcore player. He doesn't have the friendlist of a hardcore player. And he probably doesn't have a good guild either. After all, which gvg-guild wants a player not online more then a couple of hours per week? Because of that, a casual player won't get into (semi-)high-level GvG. Compare that to AB. Getting into AB is almost as easy as getting into RA. And unlike GvG, a casual player can actually feel he is doing something useful for his side. He is capping shrines, killing people, healing things, in other words, having an effect. Also the combination of familiar pve-aspects and 'new' pvp things works great for a casual player.

And there lays the reason why in my opinion GW fails as pvp-game. Their main source of pvp has some major problems. At forums you often see minor points like maps (Isle of Jade) and skill balance pointed out, by they aren't the main problem. The main problem is that gvgs are long, boring and hard to get into. I think the 'hard to get into' is obvious.
Then the long and boring part. A high/equal level gvg can easily take 30+ minutes. That is longer then any other game I know. And during those 30 minutes, most of all the first 20, not much is happening. If you are lucky a team manages to roll the other and things actually get killed. If you get unlucky you are watching a team wait at the lord for 20 minutes (not blaming anyone, it is a working tactic). Compare that to all other kinds on pvp in this game and you see gvg is completely different then the rest. Which doesn't make it any easier either.
Because of the long matches, the lack of kills, enormous amount of not needed extra things on the maps (as in, everything except the lord) and maps that are far too big in the first place, gvg (and because of that GW) doesn't work well as tournament game either. Actually, I think you can call it a complete failure.

So does that mean that I'm saying pvp can't be saved? Not at all. But question is, which part of the pvp do we want to be saved? If you want to save the high level gvg, there is lots of work to be done. Even that much that I doubt it is worth it. But what if Anet changes it plans and tries to save pvp as a whole? The 3 low-level parts come to mind then. RA, TA and AB. Easy to get into, easy to understand, easy to play at a decent level even as casual player. And not needing much work to get saved.
1) make TA the main ladder. Compared to gvg this has many advantages, most of all for tournaments. It is a lot easier to enjoy/understand 2 teams of 4 players with 1 goal (kill the other 4). And you get nice matches of about 5 minutes max.
2) add individual statistics. Most of all for AB. Wouldn't it be great to see who made the most kills? And wouldn't it be even better if you got a faction reward for that (1000 for place 1, 500 for place 2, 200 for place 3). Do the same for healing and people might even have a reason to keep playing instead of leaving as soon as it starts looking bad. And add a nice title for getting kills and people might actually start farming pvp.

So my post got a bit longer then planned. It is just an idea I just thought of and I would like to hear the opinion of the few people who bothered to read it all