Curse

NeHoMaR · Mar 08, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Is not (was) this game the best online RPG for casual players? I am absolutely frustrated.

PvP is dying for people without friends and/or guild. The pugs are almost dead at all (compared with one year ago)

You go to HA and never get in a team, even as a r6 monk, everybody is doing their own teams with friends/guild, even at TA. The only PvP left for me is RA and HB, but the HB was just updated with a "strategic" way I don't like, and GvG needs team organization and (obviously) being in a guild. So, what now? for me PvP = RA?

(There are similar problems in PvE too)

Lord Mendes · Mar 08, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

PvP is not for casual players, unless you consider RA, ABs and HBs PvP.
Real PvP is really a "team" game, and the main pugging arena (HA) was ruined because Anet tried to make it more "fun", yet they have never played the game. People have lost interest in HA due to how much it sucks now. You can always join a big and friendly PvP guild or PuGvG, neither of which require you to be on several hours everyday.

bungusmaximus · Mar 08, 2007, 11:58 AM // 11:58

I PUG in TA every now and then, no trouble getting a team regardless what profession I play (Apart from ele, that is). Not that all of these teams are good, it's about 50/50, but I/m having fun thats what counts. As for PvE, most PUG's consist of horrible players so if theres friends on I don't even bother to PUG. I only do it when I'm bored actually. If I zap to raisu palace with my monk I can always find a team and have a go.

JR · Mar 08, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

The decline of HA (the biggest casual PvP arena in Guild Wars) has a lot more to do with the decline of the PvP community than people give it credit for.

Even the most hardcore player wants the ability to tune out and do something less intense for a while. This is why quite a large number of the 'top players' simply play WoW or other competitors untill their guild is ready and formed up to GvG. It really isn't healthy for the game at all.

Div · Mar 08, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

The only way for the pugs to pick back in HA is for anet to make HA a better place and attract either
1) more new players
2) RA, TA'ers
3) some veterans who have moved on
to come back to HA and play good pug PvP. If HA is as bad as it is now, not many new players will want to try it out (especially with how hard it is to form a group if you're new), and no veterans who turned to GvG or WoW will come back to HA when they could be doing something better.

vapor311 · Mar 08, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

JR has hit the nail on the head with this one. Since the introduction of the new chapters into the game, there was so much negative churn with the PvP population that the community has consolidated itself into smaller and smaller packets.

Nurse With Wound · Mar 08, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

PvP is dying for people without friends and/or guild. The pugs are almost dead at all (compared with one year ago)

You go to HA and never get in a team, even as a r6 monk, everybody is doing their own teams with friends/guild, even at TA.

Old Tombs/HA was the stepping ground into "bigger" pvp, serious enough to be really competetive, and yet still didnt required the amout of time and dedication needed to participate in high-end gvg.

Death of Heroes Ascent caused a chain reaction in high-end pvp in general. Ranked PUG is no more, therefore no new friendlist teams are made (you dont pug, you usually do not meet new ppl ), the influx of new people to more serious pvp is stopped ( again no puging, how can you make some friends when there are no pugs? ).
Heroes Ascent friendlist teams were a huge source of new, serious pvp guilds. People who met in ranked pugs, and liked playing together, were often forming guilds, who later were moving to gvgs as well, or stayed as HA guilds, recruting new players, helping them to gain ranks, and get better.

On the other hand, old HA guilds/ friendlist teams started to leave the game for good, because of decline of that arena to scrub fest/ gimmick 6v6. Heroes Ascent, from a thriving community, became a ghost town and a dead place.

All thats left are the gvg big boys who play World of Warcraft while waiting for their guild to assemble a team.

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

That's strange, so there was really no problem at all in HA before the 6V6 change?

Div · Mar 08, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

That's strange, so there was really no problem at all in HA before the 6V6 change?

There were still problems, but back then HA was still relatively new, meaning people are still more likely to play it. The 6v6 isn't really the main reason for HA dying, it's the fact that nothing's changed about it.

Riotgear · Mar 08, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

That's strange, so there was really no problem at all in HA before the 6V6 change?

Bad win conditions hurt it before, and the introduction of SoC made it even more lame, but 6v6 did more to kill it than anything else. Personally, I think with the win condition changes and the reversion to 8v8, it's going to come out better than it was before, though that's still not going to bring back all of the player base that has jumped ship.

They also blew their opportunity to reinvigorate PvP with Nightfall, and are still clinging to the bad Hero Battles idea, when they could have gotten more mileage by making Jade Quarry and Alliance Battles viable for semi-serious play by allowing teams to be pre-formed.

Xanthar · Mar 08, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

The OP is complaining about the game being hard to play without friends, why turn it into a huge HA whinefest (it's not like we need another...).

Well, the truth is that the PvP in this game has always been hard for people without contacts - In that it shares much with high-end WoW, or any other socially intensive game.

There is a very simple solution to the problems, and that is to join a guild that does whatever it is that you want (TA, AB, HA, GvG, knitting, whatever). Make sure they play on "your" times and hang out with them.

And if you don't feel like joining a guild for whatever reason - Well, there are plenty of single-player games out there for you to enjoy. GW is a team game. Always was.

Undressed · Mar 08, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

People are getting too nostalgic about the "old days" while they weren't so much better than what the current state offers. Nature's Renewal, Airspike, Iway, Bloodpike, generally lame holding builds (cap --> enter holding mode). The so-called veterans QQ because they cannot hold halls the whole night as they used to. The problem also lies in the design of the maps/mechanics with relic runs being the most tactical imo and the rest mostly poor brainsinks. Now Anet could have tried to balance around 8vs8 and not break an old system making it unattractive for the huge playerbase it had.

Anet also (very important) "insisted" on its "HUGE Balance" updates policy, pre-season, post-season, whatever. Instead of fixing everything obviously overpowered over the night/day they let them roam freely throughout the halls, allowing their "abuse" to the end. The rest is e-drama with people blaming others instead the lack of quality balance.

I agree with a TA-aequivalent to AB. 12 from your alliance vs. 12 from the other. No guests, nothing, but a message similarly like HA. The blabla Alliance has won a battle in favor for the Kurzicks etc. with further options to use "Factions" like unlocking Traders, Merchants, Storage and other NPCs for your Guildhall.

Riotgear · Mar 08, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undressed

I agree with a TA-aequivalent to AB. 12 from your alliance vs. 12 from the other. No guests, nothing, but a message similarly like HA. The blabla Alliance has won a battle in favor for the Kurzicks etc.

That would get a bit too spammy, and would be like broadcasting HA wins other than HoH.

I don't think it even needs that, just allow groups to pick which 2 other groups they want to join with. Add a new title track if neccessary, who cares, the main issue with both places has always been player quality control.

jummeth · Mar 08, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

HA is dead now, thanks to some failed developing ideas, and simple stuborness and unwillingnes to listen to the player base. Its kinda obvious that Arena Net customer feedback division have only one employee, a shredder.

All thats left are the gvg big boys who play World of Warcraft while waiting for their guild to assemble a team.

I think its mostly a case of ANet listening to a bunch of morons over at GWOnline -.-

8v8 (with all its problems) should be back. It allows balanced which I dearly dearly miss, sure there are a lot of spikes and gimmicks still, but at least you can have more variety than SP/BoA; N/Rt, or ParaSpike. Which is pretty much it in HA.

In 8v8, at least there were different flavours of Blood Spike, IWAY(played properly), the numerous ViMway (lol) and quite a few balanced.
It was also a testing ground (ish) for GvG builds.

Lord Mendes · Mar 08, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

There were still problems, but back then HA was still relatively new, meaning people are still more likely to play it. The 6v6 isn't really the main reason for HA dying, it's the fact that nothing's changed about it.

In order of what messed up HA the most to the least:
- Game objectives. It was both decent and crappy (you know, usually one or the other depending on the FoTM at that point in time) when it was all altar based, but it is just mostly crappy now.
- 6v6. This screwed up HA so much, and turned HA into a r/p/s arena.
- Lack of skill balances. I don't know whether Izzy is to blame for this, but not enough time is being put into skill balance. Shadow prison sins, Grenth dervs, (pre-nerf) paragons builds, SOMW spike, jagged-way, etc, made HA a crappy gimmicky arena, especially post-nightfall.
- Heroes. Very little PvPers played when heroes were introduced to HA, and many HAers (at the time) started playing GvG and never went back.
There are many more to the list, but meh...

The Real Roy Keane · Mar 08, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undressed

People are getting too nostalgic about the "old days" while they weren't so much better than what the current state offers. Nature's Renewal, Airspike, Iway, Bloodpike, generally lame holding builds (cap --> enter holding mode). The so-called veterans QQ because they cannot hold halls the whole night as they used to. The problem also lies in the design of the maps/mechanics with relic runs being the most tactical imo and the rest mostly poor brainsinks. Now Anet could have tried to balance around 8vs8 and not break an old system making it unattractive for the huge playerbase it had.

Anet also (very important) "insisted" on its "HUGE Balance" updates policy, pre-season, post-season, whatever. Instead of fixing everything obviously overpowered over the night/day they let them roam freely throughout the halls, allowing their "abuse" to the end. The rest is e-drama with people blaming others instead the lack of quality balance.

Sticky this plx.

NeHoMaR · Mar 09, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I forgot to say some people that are now r9 to r12, played in the HA "golden age" when was very easy to farm fame just pugging (even doing EOE Bomb) Now that same people make "PRO" guilds and/or teams in HA (or for GvG), and only play balanced builds, hating every single FOTM build out there. Teams/Guilds I will never be welcome, yeah never, because I am stuck at r6, and will be stuck forever at least something good happens.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 09, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undressed

People are getting too nostalgic about the "old days" while they weren't so much better than what the current state offers. Nature's Renewal, Airspike, Iway, Bloodpike, generally lame holding builds (cap --> enter holding mode). The so-called veterans QQ because they cannot hold halls the whole night as they used to. The problem also lies in the design of the maps/mechanics with relic runs being the most tactical imo and the rest mostly poor brainsinks. Now Anet could have tried to balance around 8vs8 and not break an old system making it unattractive for the huge playerbase it had.

Please, this is exactly the kind of thinking that got halls screwed up halls in the first place, this is an example of a better than you attitude about how all players who want HA to go back to a fun working system are holding build lamers. Now I could start to refute your claims about the state of HA, but that is not what this thread is about, and I think a lot of people would appreciate that I don't turn it into one of those threads.

Reasons for lack of casual play include:

-Nerfing of mant effective and simple pug builds, IWAY, VIMWAY, EOE bomb (if you can call them effective)

-Lack of player,s many people quit over the time of HA being 6v6 leading to very few pugs forming, the big one IMO.

-Objectives changes hurt as well

tacitus · Mar 09, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Since the change to 6v6 and the introduction of heroes into ha (which took an age to fix) I have not pugged. HA for me went downhill even with the removal of heroes it was still rubbish with the 6 man teams and much needed skill balances nowhere in sight.

Before the introduction of 6v6 I normally played with guildies however we took pugs quite often when we were 6 or 7/8 and sometimes i joined other teams that were 6 or 7/8 when most of my guild was offline because ha was something fun to do. However since 6v6 was introduced many teams are full of guildies. If you have 4 or 5 why not just ta or do something else than try and find a pug, at least when you had 6/7 people there was incentive to find those players to get the team moving.

In short in 8v8 if you were a person or 2 short most teams were willing to find a pug to make up the numbers. In 6v6 this is not the case if your short by 2 players or most teams just don't bother finding the pugs and do something else.

In my experience ha was where most of my pvp contacts were made if I started again under the current system I probable wouldn't bother trying to get into pvp.

Elrodien · Mar 09, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

I think people look back with rose tinted glasses at 8 vs 8. There were still a lot of crummy builds back then (oh noes, ANOTHER Bloodspike....) and plenty of e-drama on the forums ( I seem to remember an IWAY thread which had 800 or so posts in it in the PvP section here ). I actually looked forward to 6 vs 6 when it came out because it changed something, and for a while it wasn't so bad as people strived for the best six man build. This intial enjoyment didn't last long

6 v 6 HA has become 'boreway'. Its the nature of things I guess - less players allowed in a team = less diverse builds. In that respect, changing back to 8 vs 8 is a good idea, but I think the whole HA format needs looked at. Throw the whole thing in the bin and start again from scratch. Perhaps then there will be enough interest in the HA game to get people back there and pugging again. And just maybe, the casual gamer can have his PvP when he wants it and balance is restored to the multiverse.