Curse

Lord Mendes · Mar 23, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Before I start, I urge the mods not to move this thread to Sarderlac Sanitarium. I know that this is a suggestion but I would like to get an opinion from the PvP community. Anyway, I will try to keep my Anet bashing to a minimum.

I have been playing Guild Wars since release, and I can honestly say that this game is the best PvP game I've ever played. Guild Wars has some really good game mechanics and promotes skill and intelligence in a balanced environment; definitely a game that can be played at a competitive level. However, the lack of skill/map balance and the unnecessary changes have crippled PvP. Many people will agree that Guild Wars PvP is now broken beyond repair and that this game will never realize it's true potential PvP-wise.

I believe that the way Guild Wars was marketed is the main reason why it is not advancing as a PvP game. If you pick up any of the Guild Wars boxes or manuals you will see that the serious types of PvP (GvG, TA, HA) are barely mentioned. It is all about PvE and killing monsters with your friends around the world for free. This has attracted so many casual/cheap PvEers/RPers, and so little PvPers that Anet cannot devote enough time catering to them since they represent such a small portion of the players. Therefore, PvE is weighing down the PvP side of this game, which is a travesty considering that the PvE is pretty mediocre.

My solution to this problem is simple: Guild Wars PvP Edition.
Basically, what I am proposing is separating the PvP element of Guild Wars and selling it as an individual game. This will allow much more focus on the PvP part, as well as much more exposure as a balanced competitive PvP game.
This kind of game would not be very costly for Anet. The skills are already there, and the characters/maps/weapons/mechanics have already been taken care off. You would just need 3 or 4 Devs to ensure the skills and maps are balanced (read: Ensign), 3 or 4 Devs to improve/enhance general PvP (ATs, the ladder, fix HA, stop leavers in the RA, etc), 3 or 4 Devs to come up with some new/cool weekend PvP modes (sealed play weekend, summer '06 weekend, etc), a small marketing team, a good PvP oriented CR team (read: Mr Dan Gray), a good tournament organization team (read: Khonsu), and a strong Alpha team consisting of experienced PvP players. The names given are just silly examples, but I assure you that Guild Wars PvP would be much better if the above people were actually in charge of these things and worked on them as a priority.

This will ensure that people are constantly working to make this game better and more balanced, all while being promoted as a strong PvP game. The market for competitive PvP games is massive, and if this game is marketed and balanced correctly it will attract many players and generate loads of income for Anet, all while producing a great competitive game.
Imagine how cool it would be to have a balanced Guild Wars, with a strong ladder and tournament system in place, fun casual arenas, systems in place to help players find guilds, cool PvP weekend events, and a massive PvP community with loads of competition. This could all be possible if Anet marketed the game to a PvP crowd and invested enough money into making this work, and I can guarantee that this will be a money maker if done well.
If this edition proves to be half of what I expect it to be, Anet could even offer some sort of subscription fee and the game would still be a huge success. I think the most sensible option would be to charge a one time fee for a CD key, and a relatively cheap three month subscription fee.
You could buy the game with all skills and weapon mods unlocked, and earning faction would enable you to unlock vanity weapon skins and armor which would only make your characters look better. This would be pretty cool because it would allow the grinders to have something to play for, as well as add a bit of (unnecessary) grind to the game. Looking good is a big part of PvP as well xD.

I believe that Guild Wars PvP has the potential to become the best competitive online PvP game, the game being played for the big bucks, the balanced game where player skill prevails, yet the lack of resources and time invested into this part of the game have caused the PvP side to suffer drastically. Creating a PvP version of Guild Wars will ensure that the game is marketed correctly and attracts many competitive gamers, all while generating a bundle of extra cash.

skillsbas8 · Mar 23, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

I like the idea.
Too many people view gw as a cheap RPG knockoff to wow. A-net would actually obtain a much larger PvP fanbase if it markets this more effectively.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 23, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Doesn't this like....already exist?

The pvp edition I mean. Not the competent alpha team etc.

Lord Mendes · Mar 23, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Doesn't this like....already exist?

Read the OP imo.

minor · Mar 23, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

I had kinda this same thought a while back.
I ll try to make the point in one easy snap.
PvPers get 25% of the game;the pvers get 75%,but we both pay the same price almost.
I paid 40 dollars for the nightfall pvp unlocks. What did i get?
A bunch of skills that pvers got as well, and a few new halls.
The programming for this was not a major effort imo, compared to the pve side.
They got a truckload of maps, monsters, etc plus all the same skills .
If GW took my 40 bucks and used it to work on pvp instead of pve, then maybe we could get really great pvp.

Lord Mendes · Mar 23, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

If GW took my 40 bucks and used it to work on pvp instead of pve, then maybe we could get really great pvp.

This will never happen because most players are PvE players. If you have a seperate game, then you are guaranteed that the PvP part will be worked on if it generates any cash (which it will).

Vermilion · Mar 23, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

The thought of basically having GW where all resources are invested in PvP is certainly enticing. Having more forms of PvP would eventually become a necessity, but implementing new arenas and such would be easier I guess. How it would be implemented would have to be carefully thought out..although it only matters if the idea is actually considered, which unfortunately I don't see happening. Besides the fact that Anet would more likely shut down their servers before offering a monthly fee for a game. -.-

JR · Mar 24, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

This is an idea that has been brought up many times before. It's a good one, but sadly far fetched to think ArenaNet would go for it, due to the financial risk involved.

PvE in Guild Wars is in some ways a safety net for ArenaNet. They know even if they manage to completely stuff up the competitive PvP, they will always have the sales to PvE players as the backbone of the business. It is a lot harder to mess up PvE, and thus it is a safer bet. Producing a pure PvP game is a risk, because you either get it right or you really don't. You are considerably narrowing your target market, and have to hope what you produce is good enough to pick up the players.

Symbol · Mar 24, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

At this point I'm willing to settle for timely skill balances-didn't they promise more frequent updates?

Thomas.knbk · Mar 24, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Read the OP imo.

I did.
There is currently a version of guild wars that gives you access to all the PvP content, including UAX. I was under the impression that it was a seperate package and you didn't need a PvE edition to link it to.

Patrick Smit · Mar 24, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

What JR suggests popped up in my mind as well. COnsidering that, it may even be "good" to have PvP linked to PvE content, as that means that cashflow will also support PvP support, in terms of balances, servers that need to be up 24/7 etc. I think they should stick this strategy, although it may be less focussed on PvP therefore. The added advantage is, that there will be a part of the PvE player pool that will become fed up with PvE grind, and set their eyes upon PvP. Some will become nice PvP players as wel, and some will just never learn.

AusEqualsFtw · Mar 24, 2007, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Also consider that your solution can make PvP less popular? For us die hard PvP nerds who know what Guild wars PvP is all about, it would be our total moneys worth. but for those new to guild wars and cannot be stuffed buying both PvE and PvP parts i cannot help but assume PvE would flourish and PvP not.

what you mentioned is only a problem to a small minority, there is not enough of us to make a difference.

kvndoom · Mar 24, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

"No monthly fee" is both a boon and a curse for Anet. On the one hand, it's a hell of a selling point for an online game. On the other, it means that their income is static (read: 0) when nobody's buying. The people who already own the game have spent their money and no new cash is coming from them until new content arrives (if they choose to buy said content).

As has been stated, PVE will sell way more copies than PVP.

The question is, would Anet be willing to slightly alter its business model to save PVP? I would suggest a $3 to $5 monthly fee to have PVP access on your account (this includes allowing PVE toons into PVP areas). Something minimal, pennies a day, the cost of a fast-food lunch, that won't be missed.

Downsides (only one):

GW is no longer "free" if you choose to PVP.

Upsides:

This money will go directly into paying the salary of someone who will balance skills and develop PVP content. If PVP isn't being focused on due to manpower, then here's the solution.

This is a very small investment per month, and the premises of properly balanced GW PVP is good enough that thousands will gladly pay the small sum to help the game reach its potential.

The PVP community will essentially be "voting with its wallet," so Anet only has to look at the increase / decrease of PVP access fees from one month to the next to see how the public feels. This would also light a fire under their asses to be more in touch with the PVP community because angry people won't pay for a product they aren't happy with. Keep Gaile on the PVE side, but hire a PR person who exclusively communicates with the PVP crowd.

Most PVE players whose PVP-indulgence rarely surpasses curiosity won't bother paying the fee, which might actually make RA fun (hey, one can dream!).
_______________________________

I don't want to see the two games separated. I do want to see both aspects of the game given equal treatment by Anet. I also want to see GW thrive and improve in the coming years and know that Anet is making good money.

BryanM · Mar 24, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

On the other, it means that their income is static (read: 0)

Bank interest is a magical and wonderful thing.

Lord Mendes · Mar 24, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Well, here is what I'm thinking.
We know that Guild Wars PvP can work because it has in the past. When it was a "top" priority (think Koreans and GWWC), Guild Wars PvP was pretty successful even though it got little very exposure as a PvP game and had a small PvP community. This, I think, proves that Guild Wars has the potential to be a great PvP game if it is kept balanced and marketed to PvP players.
Also JR, I agree that creating a PvP only game is a risk, but keep in mind that very little has to go into producing such a PvP edition because all the bases are already there. A bit of intelligent marketing, hiring a dozen extra people, and expanding/getting new servers will be the only costs involved in producing this PvP edition. I see this as a very small cost for a PvP game that has a great chance of being successful.
It's not like Fury where you are building the whole thing from scratch and you don't know whether the game will actually be accepted by PvPers.

Warskull · Mar 24, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

The PvP side of the game is not strongly balanced enough and not enough attention has been paid to it to make this work. Plus the PvP community has been beaten to death by A.net. There isn't enough interest left for this to work. Furthermore the PvP absolutely sucks for low and mid tier players. So someone who bought only the PvP edition would hate this game.

As for monthly fees for PvP, I would have quit and said "A.net doesn't balance this well enough for it to be worth $x a month" already if they tried that.

Kyune · Mar 24, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Well, alternatively (although it would probably take ANet's blessing with regards to IP associated with the game) the community could create and maintain an emulation of PvP in GW which would effectively be a branching of GW's PvP and PvE.

Legal issues aside, I'm not sure the time investment would be well-spent (for a fan-made GW pvp, would it take so long to hit that everyone will have moved on to other pastures and/or the next GW hits first?).

Examples of this being done in the past are the open source Megamek/Mekwars emulation of paper and pen Classic Battletech (who did managed to secure permission from Wizkids), and Project Visitor (10six revived and heavily updated/fixed from the old source) so it's not an entirely radical idea. But even if we did place our hopes on this, could a group of people willing to undertake such a project be reliably expected to bring it completion?

tomcruisejr · Mar 25, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

...This, I think, proves that Guild Wars has the potential to be a great PvP game if it is kept balanced and marketed to PvP players.
Also JR, I agree that creating a PvP only game is a risk, but keep in mind that very little has to go into producing such a PvP edition because all the bases are already there...

GW as a PvP only game is against A.Net's roadmap/philosophy. One of the founders, Jeff Strain, is a role player/pver. If you played since release, you should know that GW was intended as a PvE -> PvP game.

And as other people said, if you wanna make $$, you must cater the game to the majority. PvPers are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing minority.

Lord Mendes · Mar 25, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

And as other people said, if you wanna make $$, you must cater the game to the majority. PvPers are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing minority.

They are a minority because Anet are dumb and didn't market this game to the right crowd. Hell, I am not saying completely get rid of PvE, on the contrary, they should keep their cheap imitation of WoW and produce a PvP only edition MARKETED TO PvPERS. Right now it is just a cheap imitation of WoW with good but imba PvP because they attracted folks that don't care about PvP, and won't devote enough time to the fraction that does. This does not mean that there is no market for PvP games, this just shows that Anet didn't mark to PvPers.
@ Warskull
Having more resources devoted to skill balance + people working JUST to balance skills (unlike Izzy) + not being forced to balance 300 new skills every 6 months + ability to ninja a skill out of the game without upsetting 1 million PvEers = balance.
I would pay for that.

twicky_kid · Mar 26, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

PvP and PvE will be split in GW2.

Just have to wait to see more info.