Curse

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squidget

These changes are fine, though not great. Conjures remain somewhat playable, though I'd be unlikely to run it in any meta where I can expect frequent strips.

The more important thing is that Arenanet is doing multiple small buffs as things come up, rather than saving everything for massive 'balance updates.' Even if I'm indifferent to the specific changes, it's encouraging that they're implementing changes as needed. This style of balance updates is a huge step forward for the game, and long overdue.

QFT, Arenanet is doing much better lately.

/kudos

Riotgear · Apr 14, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

IOn Enchant removal: Enchant removal has always been rather weak, but it needs to be, or else monks are worthless because you just remove their prots mindless.

I wasn't saying it needed a buff, I'm saying that in a conjure-heavy meta, it would be worth devoting a skill slot to something on a short recharge. Considering the number of water eles around as well, in a meta where the opposition relies heavily on long-recharge enchantments to keep the juice flowing, it would definitely be worth it to pack a short-recharge remove.

I'd rather have shatter on a spike anyway.

Quote:

The rending stuff on dervishes are pretty strong too, which means you get to run hexes AND dervishes!

I was thinking W/D, personally.

Ensign · Apr 14, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Conjures are still really good. I'm starting to think they were pretty good before the buff and were simply overlooked. They might need another slight tap on damage.

The recharge change is just annoying, it simply makes the skill more fragile if that ever starts to matter. It really doesn't though, spot removals are still at a low point. Your Conjure really only gets blown up if you're getting spiked, which isn't exactly frequent.

Peace,
-CxE

Ser Jaremy Ryker · Apr 14, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Conjures are still really good. I'm starting to think they were pretty good before the buff and were simply overlooked. They might need another slight tap on damage.

The recharge change is just annoying, it simply makes the skill more fragile if that ever starts to matter. It really doesn't though, spot removals are still at a low point. Your Conjure really only gets blown up if you're getting spiked, which isn't exactly frequent.

Peace,
-CxE

A while ago a thread in campfire got ressurected talking about HB and conjure. I added in a piece about conjure's viability on its own as a damage buff and did a simulation of two warrior builds with and without conjure.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=116224&page=2

Sacrificing an attack skill for conjure would still result in similar spike damage but a much higher pressure-based damage. What it comes down do is evaluating whether it is worth loosing the utility of another possible skill like shock (note conjure and shock does not work well together as after a short period of time you don't have enough energy to use both consistently).

So, I'd have to agree they were good (not necessarily best) even before the buff and still warrant consideration.

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The recharge change is just annoying, it simply makes the skill more fragile if that ever starts to matter. It really doesn't though, spot removals are still at a low point.

I guess after Avatar of Grenth went away, everyone simply decided to ignore enchantment removal all together. Silly, because Drain Enchant is good again with Mantra of Recovery.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Apr 14, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Drain Enchant is good again with Mantra of Recovery.

True enough, but don't forget just about every dom mes skills is equally buffed under MoR and are not bad without it. So the question for the dom mes is, "do i want to use MoR to make Drain playable on this bar or push some other skill to the point of nearly being broken?"

Patccmoi · Apr 14, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

The really strong point of conjure is their ability to just prevent RoF from affecting your main attacks. While RoF can usually help a lot against a hammer warrior, Conjure just prevents that. It's actually very strong on Dervishes for the same reason. It doesn't matter if your attack speed is slow, with monks near reliance on RoF to get the bars up. So in that sense, the damage nerf/buff doesn't matter all that much and ya i think Conjures were always good. When you see monks at low health kiting around and just throwing RoFs but never getting any real result out of it and not managing to save people, that's where you see Conjures shining.

The recharge nerf annoys me cause of the fragility it adds to the skill, but then again attunements are usable with the same recharge and are about as high priority for strips. You might see more Corrupt Enchant or the like if Conjures become really popular, it's an elite that's so easy to fit on absolutely any class, even warrior though it wouldn't be my first choice, and it's good without any investment (but shines as you pour points in it, such a good elite).

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

RoF is a monk's knee-jerk reaction agianst surprises. Its what a monk desperately uses when everything else is recharging or nothing else works. Its an all purose spell that is thrown at problems to make them go away until you can cast something better. Because it tends to get far outperformed by GoH, RC, and other slower spells (if you have time to cast them) I tend to only use RoF in those do-or-die situations. This typically means its one of the more uncommon spells on my bar that I use. I so would hardly say that monks "rely on it to make red bars go up".

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

You are totally correct about that.

~Z

Samurai-JM · Apr 14, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

They nerfed this and then buffed Brutal Weapon to the point where it is better than the old Conjures. Just go /Rt. That is armor ignoring damage and it can't be removed!

Riotgear · Apr 15, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

That is armor ignoring damage and it can't be removed!

Conjures last significantly longer than BW, which is important since warriors running Conjure bars are already tight on energy. And of course, there are the problems of BW being totally incompatible with Aegis and getting nerfed by prot attempts.

Im In A Build · Apr 15, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

you can always weapon switch to cast conjure which should be done since you can also get it to last 20% longer that way crip slash+conjure lit+gale=plolololol

Div · Apr 15, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Only big problem I see with the recharge nerf is if the warrior using it dies. It's the only real time you'll face big enchantment removal on warriors...

Zuranthium · Apr 15, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

True enough, but don't forget just about every dom mes skills is equally buffed under MoR and are not bad without it. So the question for the dom mes is, "do i want to use MoR to make Drain playable on this bar or push some other skill to the point of nearly being broken?"

Yeah, but the MoR Mesmer doesn't have infinite energy. The skillbar needs balance. Having both Shatter and Drain Enchant on the bar is strong.

~Z

Patrograd · Apr 15, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I think that a warrior who has had his conjure stripped is still a warrior, still capable of killing stuff left right and centre. Its an inconvenience, nothing more.

I should think that the correct solution would be to use anti-melee skills that punish enchanted warriors, stuff like blinding surge or icy shackles for example. I think this would be a stronger play than making room on your bar specifically for a spot enchant removal for the conjure.

Ronin Rangerin · Apr 15, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

I think that a warrior who has had his conjure stripped is still a warrior, still capable of killing stuff left right and centre. Its an inconvenience, nothing more.

Exactly, the warriors probably taking out of tactics to get the 10 atts in the element anyway; so when stripped, hes the same warrior he was before people started using conjure, in killing capacity.

And if youre low on energy just switch to your zealous for a bit...

Patrick Smit · Apr 15, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

RoF is a monk's knee-jerk reaction agianst surprises. Its what a monk desperately uses when everything else is recharging or nothing else works. Its an all purose spell that is thrown at problems to make them go away until you can cast something better. Because it tends to get far outperformed by GoH, RC, and other slower spells (if you have time to cast them) I tend to only use RoF in those do-or-die situations. This typically means its one of the more uncommon spells on my bar that I use. I so would hardly say that monks "rely on it to make red bars go up".

RoF outperforms GoH when it comes to damage mitigation, GoH is better for a reliable heal.

Seamus Finn · Apr 15, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yeah, but the MoR Mesmer doesn't have infinite energy. The skillbar needs balance. Having both Shatter and Drain Enchant on the bar is strong.

~Z

Drain at around 10 insp gives somewhere around a 3 energy gain. Mesmers bring GoLE if they want an easy button for emanagement and are subbing ele and bring power drain on an MoR bar to get potential crazy energy gains. Even auspicious I have found to far outclass Drain and give interesting side effects (Aegis on mesmers as emanagement). So yeah, my point is that drain isn't worth the slot in most situations.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 15, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yeah, but the MoR Mesmer doesn't have infinite energy. The skillbar needs balance. Having both Shatter and Drain Enchant on the bar is strong.

~Z

Power Drain or GoLE imo. Drain just isn't worth the slot.

Blame the Monks · Apr 15, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

RoF outperforms GoH when it comes to damage mitigation, GoH is better for a reliable heal.

Rof is a staple on almost any monk bar because it is very fast, cheap, good recharge, can target anyone, doesn't require a high investment to be effective, and it scales with skill. Good monks use rof to feel out damage, top off bars and prevent the next hit, and negate large packet damage such as eles and wars. The only flaw rof has is it doesn't work well against degen or small packet damage, which is where goh comes in.

And just because it is in the prot line doesn't mean it is a prot. Like ZB or mend condition, the prot line has many heals or conditional heals. Rof is also a heal, not a prot. Prots make the damage you take get reduced, as in PS, soa, aegis, and so on. Heals make bars go up. Rof is makes your bar go up based on the next damage you take, but doesn't really reduce damage. Think of it as healing for 2x the damage you take next up to 54 or w/e, but don't ever think of rof as reducing damage, because it doesn't in any meaningful way.