Curse

JR · Apr 16, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

These is the staple build we ran last season, and is still solid now post skill-update (in fact arguably better due to the "Shields Up!" nerf).

The Build:
http://gwshack.us/ca85e
(Our home map for this period was Druids Isle)

The idea behind this was quite simple a very versatile and fluid split build, able to adapt to multiple situations with none of those sissy caster classes. Basically the build splits into three component parts:

Primary Split:
Burning Arrow Ranger and the Crippling Slash Warrior.
Both of these characters are built to be tough to take down. The Ranger comes as standard with Natural Stride and Mending Touch (and has to be on top of Mending the Warrior if necessary). Warrior has Disciplined Stance to cover his Healing Signet.

Secondary Split:
SoR Runner
This guy is a tank, and a solo splitter. He can hold off pretty much anything in your base, run flags through resistance, or give healing support to the Primary Split if necessary. Probably the most fluid character in the build, as he can be in any place at any time, and has to decide where he is most useful.

Main Team:
Earthshaker Warrior, Shock Axe, Crippling Shot Ranger, LoD Infuse, RC
Again every character here is capable of split, with some self heal, and only the Shock Axe not having self condition removal. Most common situations would involve sending the Shock Axe to our split, to push harder there. Also as common sending the Crippling Shot Ranger back to our base to chase out the odd Assassin, Warrior or Ranger there. The Earthshaker generally stayed at the stand. Having the Hard Res on a Warrior... a bit strange, but not much you can do with a build full of physicals. Guardian the Warrior against interrupts when trying to Res.

Some common strategies with this build
Just a few map related strategies we found worked well with this build. Obviously I can't be too specific, as it depends on your opponents reactions and build also.

Burning Isle:
Rush the Sentinels as a full team and kill the first one. SoR Runner, Crippling Slash Warrior and Burning Arrow Ranger push through (Dual cripple reduction ftw here). Rest of the team plays defensively until your opponent realizes the threat and starts to send people back. Once their offense is weakened you can probably afford to push harder. Generally they will eventually realize their offense can't push you out of their base with the SoR support, and may send a Monk back. If they only have two Monks in their build, this is where you turn the pain train on and start pushing hard. If they have three, then chances are one is already back in their base, and it is a battle to see who will win at either end. Most often as your build is better designed for this kind of split, you come out on top.

Druids Isle:
Don't repair the vine bridge. Initial split of Crippling Slash and BA Ranger through the opponents trench, with the SoR Runner if you feel it is necessary (though on Druids you are probably playing against another split, so usually not a great idea if it isn't your home map). This means if at any point you have them pushed back into their base, they are effectively bottled there. It helps you control flags and gank teams. If the SoR Runner didn't split, he can wait for the back up flag and see if anything splits into your base. If something does you have three options.

If the Cripshot can chase it off solo, you may want to have the SoR Runner take the flag and the Cripshot go back.
If the Cripshot can't handle it, but the SoR Runner can, have the Cripshot come back and pick up a flag.
If neither of them can handle it alone, keep both back and have either a Warrior or the Burning Arrow Ranger come back to run flags.

(This also applies to other maps where you may split three ways)

Frozen Isle:
Split immediately with the SoR Runner, Burning Arrow Ranger and Crippling Slash Warrior into their base down the side passage. The rest go to the flag stand. The Cripshot can run flags until you see how things go. Basically trying to power through with your builds splittability right from the start, and then change to adapt as necessary.

Corrupted Isle:
Quite probably a simple 'your split vs their split' match up, if you get this map. Adapt and collapse/shift as necessary. A good idea to make sure you leave the SoR Runner in your base from the start, to prevent any early NPC kills.

Enjoy!

zakaria · Apr 16, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Your CS warrior is W/Mo or W/A ?...it showing that you have Dash but your secondry prof. is Mo !!..GWShack is bugged ?!

Div · Apr 16, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Resurrection chant on the earth shaker...interesting hard rez idea :P

Also, since I don't see a prot spirit or SoA (in fact, two copies of SH), can you explain the reasoning behind it?

JR · Apr 16, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Fixed a couple of uhm... mistakes.

Tingi · Apr 16, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

why does your cripslash warrior have Crippling Slash AND Sever?

JR · Apr 16, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tan Blademaster

why does your cripslash warrior have Crippling Slash AND Sever?

Because we used cripslash before it was cool. Updated again.

Avarre · Apr 16, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Overall, looks pretty solid.

Mobile offence and defence, decent 8v8 power... you pretty much already know whatever I would say about it.

Rather unusual place for a rez chant, seems like it would get interrupted pretty easy as a frontline char with a long cast. One hell of a cointoss relying on guardian, but what can you do (unless you wanted to be ridiculous and bring some outlandish res).

Good job.

Div · Apr 16, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Rather unusual place for a rez chant, seems like it would get interrupted pretty easy as a frontline char with a long cast. One hell of a cointoss relying on guardian, but what can you do (unless you wanted to be ridiculous and bring some outlandish res).

Wammo with rebirth gogogo! And you can benefit from the protection prayers too! The question is: why not something like sight beyond sight+death pact signet/flesh of my flesh

JR · Apr 16, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Wammo with rebirth gogogo! And you can benefit from the protection prayers too! The question is: why not something like sight beyond sight+death pact signet/flesh of my flesh

Weren't willing to run Death Pact without another hard res in the build, too risky. Flesh would have been an option, except we really wanted to keep the self condi removal on that Warrior. We also tried Signet of Return with Remedy Signet, but unspecced it's just trash.

Basically we decided that we needed a hard res, and it was going to have to suck. We simply chose in which way it would suck the least.

Avarre · Apr 16, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Basically we decided that we needed a hard res, and it was going to have to suck. We simply chose in which way it would suck the least.

Warrior Vengeace train could be pretty damn scary. So long as you could cover it, a lot. And didn't mind random deaths. And if the skill had a less retarded uptime ratio. And if and if...

Aside, I would have to agree. Deathpact with only three sigs and no other res is not something I would like to have. I'd be tempted to fit hard res on a ranger (Natural stride as a cover for it) rather than a war, though, as the positioning would likely be further back. The downside of potentially having your hardres on the other side of the map is quite large, though.

Zakaria (below) : I think having incredible split power as well as a decent amount of disruption (rangers) provides a great deal of active defence against hex teams. I would probably put a purge sig on a monk, or perhaps on a warrior, but no more than that - in the case it became necessary to fight through hexes. 3 veils does provide some defence against hexes (preveil for major hexes like migrane), but if pushed into a situation where tactics can't help a purge could be useful.

Granted, hexway (especially current variants) are fairly splittable and therefore splitting is not a sure-win solution. In that case, it would come down to player skill and effectively using splits, veils and disruption to overcome their build power. I'd be happier with a purge somewhere, to be honest - I'd like JR's view on that, as he has far more experience.

zakaria · Apr 16, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Why i feel that 3 Holy Veil isn't enough to counter heavy hexes teams ? anyone agrees with me about this point ?

Elrodien · Apr 16, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Its nice to get an insight into how you think out your builds. Thanks

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

6 copies of Mending Touch. Makes me giggle. Some questions:

-Why Sprint over Enraging Charge for the Shock Axe?

-What did that Crip Slash bar not have when you previously had to run Sever with it.

-With the buff to Signet of Rejuv, would you put it on the Healing Monk and then put Guardian on the RC over Shield Hands?

Ohhhh AND - Don't you think the Hard Rez would be better placed on the Cripshot? Not only because the 6 second downtime on the Ranger hurts the team less than 6 seconds of downtime on the Warrior, but also most definitely because of positioning and Natural Stride.

~Z

Burton2000 · Apr 16, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I would definatly like to know how you would beat a hex team on Jade Isle. Besides that I like the build because I love to split.

TheOneMephisto · Apr 16, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

6 copies of mending touch ftw. You know something is overpowered when you're using it on every monk primary and every character with an open secondary.

And if a hexway manages to get a couple stacks on you, you're basically done for. However, if you can push and disrupt right off the bat (2 rangers, ddagger, gale sometimes, KDs) before they get their hexes up, you have a chance 8v8 combined with some spot removals. I think that a purge on a warrior or ranger or a sig of devo + deny would help though.

JR · Apr 16, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

-Why Sprint over Enraging Charge for the Shock Axe?

Sprint is better for mobility and splitting. It's also just better for simple training.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

-What did that Crip Slash bar not have when you previously had to run Sever with it.

D-Dagger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

-With the buff to Signet of Rejuv, would you put it on the Healing Monk and then put Guardian on the RC over Shield Hands?

Monk bars listed vary a lot depending on who is playing which and what they feel like. Phel likes Signet of Rejuvenation, I'd prefer other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

AND - Don't you think the Hard Rez would be better placed on the Cripshot? Not only because the 6 second downtime on the Ranger hurts the team less than 6 seconds of downtime on the Warrior, but also most definitely because of positioning and Natural Stride.

Ranger could well hardly ever be with the center team, where the hard res is needed.

As for Hexes on Jade... Well most people who know MH know that Jade was our bane. Basically you can try and take people 8v8, this build does have the potential for that (which is why it is so flexible). If you know someone is running something *really* lame, you may consider charging into their base through the teleporters to get an early NPC advantage and then running them around.

Really though I don't really care. Jade is broken, and it's going to be fixed.

Clinically Proven · Apr 16, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Wow, awersome! A top build with commentary, ty JR.

Byron · Apr 16, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I love the MH style, but one thing bothered me. Playing 7v7 at the stand, I count 5 mending touches, and an RC, but only one hex removal (holy veil). I realize the idea is to be able to split and adapt, so that you could deter hex builds with tactics and interrupts, but... one holy veil? Hexes happen, imo. Frozen burst could really ruin your day.

TheOneMephisto · Apr 16, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Warrior Vengeace train could be pretty damn scary. So long as you could cover it, a lot. And didn't mind random deaths. And if the skill had a less retarded uptime ratio. And if and if...

If vengeance had something like a 2 sec cast, 60 sec duration, and 15 sec recharge, I would definitely consider using it. That would be so much fun.

Zuranthium · Apr 17, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Ranger could well hardly ever be with the center team, where the hard res is needed.

I should probably ask this then - how many times has your Warrior used the hard rez? Just doesn't seem like it would work to me. He's in the frontline, it costs him a lot of energy, it gives the other team a bigger opportunity to push you hard while he's standing there using it, and of course it's such Massively Obvious interrupt-bait. I've never even considered a Hard Rez on a Warrior so this is very new territory for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Sprint is better for mobility and splitting. It's also just better for simple training.

Hmm, with the Hammer Warrior + all the cripple around in the build I didn't see being able to train someone as much of a problem. For splitting Enraging Charge lasts just as long as a pure run buff and the fact that it ends when you hit someone doesn't seem like much of a problem to me since you have Bull's Strike + Shock as soon as you get into range. So I guess I'm still a bit confused there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

If vengeance had something like a 2 sec cast, 60 sec duration, and 15 sec recharge, I would definitely consider using it. That would be so much fun.

Whoah, that would be insanely overpowered!

Back in the days of Energizing Finale before MoR or Vengeance even got buffed, I seriously considered a Mantra of Recovery Mesmer with Vengeance on the bar. The real power of the skill, to me, is bringing back a mid-line caster. You're constantly giving them a full bar of energy and any attempts to kill the Vengeanced character to prevent his spell-spamming results in no DP.

Keeping the casting time/recharge as they are now and simply increasing the duration to 60 seconds would make the skill very, very playable IMO.

~Z