Curse

Adjira · Feb 21, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I strongly prefer 6v6 because there is too many spike with the new system in 8v8

Seraphic Divinity · Feb 21, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

In my Honest opinion, and I believe I speak for a significant amount of people who have yet to vote or post:

We have:

4v4 PvP play

8v8 PvP play

12v12 PvP play

yet we -don't- have a 6v6 PvP play if you -DO- take out the 6v6 HA and re-make it 8v8.

Main problem with 8v8 HA is that you -must- confront the enemy, and BECAUSE of this, 95% of the metagame winners are spike teams; the other 4% are teams that know how to capitalize off of spike teams and the last 1% are lucky teams...

In GvG you do -NOT- have to confront and attack a team, therefore spike teams are not a viable option unless you plan on splitting and spiking... which also is really not the case here.

In HA, there are several maps where you -must- confront the enemy full force and battle to the death. 8v8 allows for 3 monks to keep one team alive for a LONG time and 5 people to spike. It's extremely easy to do a 5 person spike...

ALSO, This forces CAMPING teams to be confronted. The reason Spirit way is so popular is BECAUSE they -MUST- be confronted head on to win. You can NOT win a match in HA by avoiding or splitting Spirit Way Teams, it's impossible (unless they suck). Therefore spirit way teams simply create their base of spirits and camp. It's simple, and they know that the enemy must in fact move forward or waste time. In GvG this is NOT the case. Why? Because in GvG you can not camp one area and hope to have the other team convenienty walk into your death pit. In GvG you can 'force' splits, you have the option of taking care of several objectives (cap flag stand, kill NPC's, defend base, stop flag runner). HA does not allow for this in that the only objective in a lot of maps is direct confrontation.

YES, 8v8 was good back when the ability to spike was VERY limited, but with the recent buff to rits, and the NEW metagame 8v8 Heroes Ascent with FORCED confrontation to win is -BAD- in that it is minimizing ANY strategy involved to a Camping Spike rather than a strategic pressure build.

Here's an idea. Do like Hero Battles and have Towers that add bonuses to teams holding them (i.e. mending shrine, energy shrine, ??warrior shrine??) and that would make Heroes Ascent AMAZING for 8v8 play because with THESE objectives it's impossible to FORCE direct confrontation without strategic elements.

/SIGNED

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 21, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphic Divinity

Here's an idea. Do like Hero Battles and have Towers that add bonuses to teams holding them (i.e. mending shrine, energy shrine, ??warrior shrine??) and that would make Heroes Ascent AMAZING for 8v8 play because with THESE objectives it's impossible to FORCE direct confrontation without strategic elements.

/SIGNED

Anet is not making new maps for HA any time soon .. we must deal with that fact ... the current discussion is in regards to how to optimize the EXISTING maps.

tacitus · Feb 21, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

yeah look at all these spike teams in 8v8 its great that 6 man teams cant spike

.. oh wait a min they can.

I wonder if the reason spike is so popular is because maps like broken tower reward sheer damage teams like spikes over shutdown or pressure. Nah lets still blame spikes on 8 man team even tho you can spike with 6 people.

8v8 all the way once kill count maps are dealt with more builds will see the light of day and it will be much better playing in ha again.

As for taking longer to make teams it also means more interaction between players. In some cases this ios bad cause you need to find 1 or 2 randoms to make up your party but overall it increases your friend list and allows can sometimes help people when pugging since guild teams may require another 2 players. However it does limit the full pug teams since they need more players but that should be balanced out overall.

Efrin · Feb 21, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I strongly prefer 8vs8 because it requires better co-ordination, diffrent tactics and its much funnier. It was a bit harder to start a group, but that wasnt a big problem. HoH was more interesting because as I mentioned before it required more co-ordination, diffrent tactics for splits etc. and also teams werent so squishy as in 6vs6. I enjoyed playing HA again, even as Monk against diffrent spikes, spike-pressures etc.

I didnt like Kill Count Maps (Broken, Courtyard), Kill Counts favored builds like crazy Spikes (Icy Veins, Rit Spike) and insane AoE (2 Ass, 2-4 Ele) builds, it disqualified builds like heavy conditions/hex degens on those maps (frag stealing and lower chance to get frags

) and also sometimes not fair ganking >.<.

In my opinion 8vs8 HA would need small changes like:
- Longer casting time or/and a bit smaller Dmg on spike skills (Gaze, Icy Veins)
- 1vs1 Kill Counts or Altar Holding instead

Thats all I think.

Mirado · Feb 21, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Efrin

- 1vs1 Kill Counts or Altar Holding instead

Thats all I think.

lol, 1v1 kill count...whats the point?

Seraphic Divinity · Feb 21, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Anet is not making new maps for HA any time soon .. we must deal with that fact ... the current discussion is in regards to how to optimize the EXISTING maps.

I understand that 'more changes' are not planned at the moment, therefore it supports my previous arguments declaring the metagame is bad, at best, in that the spike teams are dominating, not by strategy, but rather by convenience.

How convenient is it when a team has to walk directly into your spike to attempt to win? In my opinion it could not be more convenient than that.

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 21, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphic Divinity

I understand that 'more changes' are not planned at the moment, therefore it supports my previous arguments declaring the metagame is bad, at best, in that the spike teams are dominating, not by strategy, but rather by convenience.

How convenient is it when a team has to walk directly into your spike to attempt to win? In my opinion it could not be more convenient than that.

I didn't say "more changes" weren't coming .. I said "new maps" aren't coming ... big difference there. I believe net is still committed to making whatever changes are feasible with the existing maps.

For example ... they implemented killcounts because everyone complained about the whole "capping and holding the altar" mechanic. They didn't see the whole spike dominated metagame "thing" coming ... maybe they should have ... but honestly no one else saw it coming either ... because spikes DID NOT dominate the initial weekend of testing.

But now they DO know that everyone hates the current killcount mechanic .. and I am confident that it will be gone soon.

The changes don't come as fast as we would all like ... Anet is vey cautious when implementing changes ... and overall that is probably a good thing...

Randomway Ftw · Feb 21, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

For example ... they implemented killcounts because everyone complained about the whole "capping and holding the altar" mechanic.

Wrong, it wasn't everyone, it was a select few people who made rash decisions based on a flawed metagame(6v6), or people who don't know much about the issues who complained about the altar maps.

Bread Fan · Feb 21, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

For example ... they implemented killcounts because everyone complained about the whole "capping and holding the altar" mechanic. They didn't see the whole spike dominated metagame "thing" coming ... maybe they should have ... but honestly no one else saw it coming either ... because spikes DID NOT dominate the initial weekend of testing.

......

You are so wrong. It was blatantly obvious that spikes were going to be favored over balance with kill count. I predicted it as well as many others did. Anet of course realized this but they went ahead with the 8v8 week anyways instead of doing king of the hill on broken and courtyard. As it stands now those two maps are a waste. Only at the beginning do the teams even care about the altar, the rest of the time its all about kiting.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Voted for somewhat preferring 6v6.

My feeling is that if Guild Wars were well balanced, 8v8 would be better, as the extra two characters tend to be more interesting ones in flexible builds and it would allow for more advanced tactics on the HoH maps. However, as the game is currently balanced, 8v8 is really a disaster area. After the last skill update, I lost quite a bit of faith in Arena.net's ability and desire to do a good job balancing Guild Wars - not only were serious problems overlooked, but new, *obvious* problems were created that tell me that Arena.net does not understand what they are trying to balance.

Hence, for now, I'm voting for slightly preferring 6v6, as balance problems are less of an issue in 6v6. If Arena.net ever takes balancing Guild Wars seriously, I will again support 8v8 play in HoH.

Peace,
-CxE

coleslawdressin · Feb 21, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphic Divinity

I understand that 'more changes' are not planned at the moment, therefore it supports my previous arguments declaring the metagame is bad, at best, in that the spike teams are dominating, not by strategy, but rather by convenience.

How convenient is it when a team has to walk directly into your spike to attempt to win? In my opinion it could not be more convenient than that.

Apparently your understanding is baseless. Part of my understanding from little snippets of rumors given by an ANET dev....... hints at new maps where split is a counter to spike.

Monk is my worst class and I am still good enough to infuse these nooby spikes in tombs. There are a couple of broken skills but I also heard that they are working on them. I don't think they should gimp tombs because new players whine about spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphic Divinity

yet we -don't- have a 6v6 PvP play if you -DO- take out the 6v6 HA and re-make it 8v8.

Main problem with 8v8 HA is that you -must- confront the enemy, and BECAUSE of this, 95% of the metagame winners are spike teams; the other 4% are teams that know how to capitalize off of spike teams and the last 1% are lucky teams...

GVG is 8v8 but I can't just go GVG with any 7 friends. You need at least 4 members, which is often inconvenient or impossible. You can't count GVG as grab and go PVP like tombs/AB/RA/TA.

Your garbage about confronting the enemy shows how clueless you are. Even if you run away and gank spike teams they are still going to defend and/or wipe you and push your lord. Even if you avoid lots of deaths you are probably going to end up engaged, split or otherwise, at VOD. If spike is winning because of broken skills they will fix them. If I run pressure builds, I don't avoid the enemy. I run right into the spike team and roll them before they get off 3 spikes. When people complain about spike in general like that, I can only assume you run with horrible monks and/or an ineffective offense.

masta_yoda · Feb 21, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

yes going back to 6v6 because of spike isnt really a good enough reason to change. 1v1 against spike builds is easy to win. the problem is that they just have too much of an advantage in kill count especially 3 way. All they do is farm the weaker team and you cant do anything because they can probably get 5 kills before you can get 1.

I say just get rid of kill count for everything, make broken and cy old school holding.
hoh can be random but reverting it back to holding would be nice.
holding never really was a problem if two teams couldnt take the holding team off then your build definately has too little damage.

Jaden Stone · Feb 21, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Well I enjoyed the 8v8 week. We were actually able to run balanced and dominate, even on kill count. There were a lot of challenging matches because of the mechanic and facing dual rit spike or dual BoA savana was very stressful. Of course you cant win them all, but we did very well all week with balanced.

If the kill count objective is fixed/changed and halls remained random as is that would be perfect. There is so much strategy in HoH with 8v8 and the multi objectives and I do think it puts spike at a disadvantage which is a good thing.

I voted strongly for 8v8 simply because in this party size, skill > build and the return of good balanced teams will revive the competetive nature of HA.

Randomway Ftw · Feb 21, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

Part of my understanding from little snippets of rumors given by an ANET dev....... hints at new maps where split is a counter to spike.

New maps are good, but hopefully anet doesn't do something stupid and add
GvG style maps to HA, as with holding builds, spikes were never a real problem, the real problem is created by poorly though out mechanics decisions such as 6v6 and kill count. The lack of (or overdoing of) a skill balance is a factor as well.

wassup1444465 · Feb 21, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

I put my vote to 8v8. What most players voting for 6v6 don't understand is that although there are hordes of teams in 8v8 that are just playing rit spike, most of those teams don't go anywhere. They only advance to courtyard because of the sheer number of them, but more often than not that do terribly in halls. For every rit spike team that holds for more than a few halls wins, there are literally dozens who do not. Because of this, it is balanced that ultimately nets the most fame. I had the chance to play with Power for most of the week, and playing balanced got us 100+ fame per day because of its ability to hold halls. I then went and played with God Milk (who some of you might or might not remember). He did a ranger spike, and the results were pitiful. I doubt I got anywhere near 25 fame in the whole time I played with him. On top of that it was unbelievably slow.

That all means that the players will eventually have to realize that it is more wortwhile for them to try their hands at holding with a balanced build, which is much faster in killing on anything (ironically) but the kill count maps. It also provides the best hall-holding advantages possible. We are essentially at the same problem we had before with 8v8, except that the solution is now crystal clear: get rid of the kill count maps. That will be it for spike farming builds and probably most other gimmick builds, because there will be no clear advantage to running anything other than balanced.

Also, please don't accuse me of being "OMG TEH ANTI SPIKEZZZZ." I was in Deer, and you probably won't find somebody who supports the use of spikes more than me. However, my support to people for running them extends only as far as when spikes are the best build to run. Right now, with the way the maps are, they aren't the best build, but they are the most disruptive build because of the way they discourage others from running a balanced build. Change kill-count and 8v8 will be fine.

Roar · Feb 21, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I prefer 8v8 ... with NO KILL COUNT :P

Almighty Zi · Feb 21, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

In the game's current state: I somewhat prefer 6 v 6.

If the game was properly balanced: I somewhat prefer 8 v 8.

Chief · Feb 21, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I do not like forum polls because the accuracy is flawed and SHOULD NOT be used in determining the party size of Heroes’ Ascent. There are ZERO controls for this poll and a number questions are rolling around in my head.

Who is responsible for measuring this polls accuracy?
How are you going to determine that everyone who has voted in this poll plays Heroes’ Ascent?
How are you going to separate the ‘hard-core’ HAer, casual HAer or PvE voters?

There is no standard metric for gauging this polls accuracy. This poll is not necessarily the problem, but it is those players who are incapable of making an informed decision, those who vote blindly and those who vote toward the majority. I seriously hope that ArenaNet is not going to make a decision based on this poll.

Nonetheless, During the 8v8 testing, there was an over abundance of Rit-spike, Death-spike and BoA AoE groups, but these builds can be countered. The new mechanics lean toward builds that can surmount the most kills, thus favoring spike groups. Kill Count maps need to be adjusted/changed regardless if the team size is 8v8 or 6v6. How about introducing random environmental effects? I like the idea of changing Broken Tower to Capture Points and making Courtyard an Alter holding map, both similar to HoH.

Death_From_Above · Feb 21, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I have somewhat mixed feelings about this voting, firstly i would like to know if it is going to be a determining factor as what happens concerning tombs. As iv stated over and over again, many HA players dont use forms and therefore in most cases will have no knowledge of this voting system unless guildwars actually post it on their website or on log on screen. Therefore i would like to know hows this exactly going to be reliable in determining what players actually want if many dont end up voting due to the fact they dont even know, and adding on to this many HA players dont even bother use forms or create accounts for. Also i believe what seems to be the big problem at the mo is kill count. But anyways 8v8 all the way :P