Curse

Martin Alvito · Feb 21, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Strong preference for 8v8. I understand the concept behind the new mechanics (remove incentives to run holding builds) and applaud the effort but consider the overall result a failure.

If you feel that you must do something about holding builds, please do us this favor: revert Broken Tower and Courtyard to the traditional format. Converting the Hall of Heroes over to a format other than consistent altar holding will solve any "holding build problem" that some players felt existed.

To put it simply, my regular play groups have a strong preference for no kill count mechanics in any way. Unfortunately, kill count mechanics tend to favor spike teams over traditional teams for a variety of strategic reasons. Balanced and traditional pressure builds are crowded out of the metagame, and the end result is an imbalanced "spike or anti-spike" metagame similar to the overabundance of blood spikes around June and July of 2006. Such limiting of the meta is just no fun.

Please make the kill count mechanic go away and give us back our 8v8. We don't feel that this is too much to ask!

Bargamer · Feb 21, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Never PVPed more than a handful of matches, (and that long ago) but I had to speak out. Finally an instance where people show a little recognition to the Ritualists, and all we hear are "Nerf! Nerf now! Nerf hard!" ARE Rits imbalanced? Is that why people say it takes no skill? Is that why people show us so little love, and are largely ignorant about us in both PVE and PVP, except for ONE SHINING WEEK? I think it was surprise factor; So many people were ignorant about Ritualists in PVP that when a few freethinkers broke free of "Hey, feed Energy to our Order Necros," the effect was devastating.

Seriously, let us have our day in the sun. It wasn't going to last, and we all knew it. If it wasn't Rits, then it would have been some other spike builds; I heard Paragon. It would as well been Ele Spike or something.

But, eh. Whatever. I don't PVP, and I never intend to. I do agree with Rene, though I also have some of the probable answers. Why should PVP metagame affect PVE so hard? Probably because it's a lot simpler to keep track of one skill and compromise one way or another than make an entirely new skill or a whole other database for the "PVP" stats of the same skill. The other reason is, PVE monsters have limited AI, and you can redo a wipe during a Mission, Explorable Area, etc. You don't have that luxury in PVP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rene Saliere

*PvP and PvE not only have many mutually exclusive attractions to players, but mutually exclusive tactics and skills.

Charqus · Feb 21, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

I slightly prefer 8v8....
I think the waiting longer for the team make the people in it feel more serious about it and less likely to leave.
I liked 6v6 because thats really when I started playing HA but I do prefer 8v8.

Jedbacca · Feb 21, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Think there are some other forums this poll should be placed as well.

MaaKotka · Feb 21, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

I strongly prefer 8v8. Take kill counts out and get old atlarholding back, but leave hoh to have rotating victoryconditions where one of them is old altarholding.

Riotgear · Feb 21, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Finally an instance where people show a little recognition to the Ritualists, and all we hear are "Nerf! Nerf now! Nerf hard!"

Just because something used to suck does not mean it wasn't overbuffed.

That argument fails in particular this time because rits are not doing anything particularly new, they're just doing it really damn fast. Everything's on a very short recharge, all of it's non-projectile, and then of course there's the 1/4-sec cast Obsidian Flame.

Quote:

Is that why people say it takes no skill?

Because spike requires three people to have a brain (your two healers and your caller), and the other 5 spots can be trained monkeys as long as they have Ventrilo and can associate "Three!" with a button-press.

Quote:

Seriously, let us have our day in the sun.

See above. Imbalance does not solve anything, the best thing to do with a gimped class is to make them good, not make them overpowered. Unfortunately, as Ensign's writeup in another thread should show, Rits are probably going to be doomed to gimmicky crap forever because their skills are so conditional.

Quote:

Why should PVP metagame affect PVE so hard?

Spike skills don't tend to be effective in PvE anyway, that's what crap like Spirit Rift and Explosive Growth are for.

Bread Fan · Feb 21, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Anet you can take this game and stuff it up your ass. I am tired of being a guinea pig. If you have a testing team, fire them. It's quite obvious what HA players want. Please post PvE polls in HA next time so PvP players can influence the outcome.

windcaller · Feb 21, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

voted 8v8 as it brings alot more versatility than 6v6.

Stixxx · Feb 21, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Well Gaile it all depends, if you want to keep (crappy) Kill Counts and (imbalanced) ritualist skills the way they are, then 6v6 would seem like a better option.
If you want to change broken tower and courtyard to something fun and reasonable (NOT kill count), keep HoH objective random, and keep the skills balanced, then 8v8 is the way to go.

All I can say is that the kill count issue seems like a more pressing issue than the team size, because as you should know from your "testing", kill counts + imbalanced skills = crappy HA.

For me, the ideal system would be an 8 man HA with broken tower and courtyard as altar maps, HoH with a random objective, and balanced skills.

Agree on this 100%.

God Apprentice · Feb 21, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damus

And then 90% of the people replying on the thread want the old 8v8, the old map, and the old mechanics back. I suppose they also want the old skills back too, like the pre-nerf met shower and the pre-nerf vim. nuff said.

Uhm, no. I believe it's the mechanics that are wanted back, the skill updates from those times can stay as they are, especially since no one is saying "Oh and Gaile once we have our 8v8 back can you undo every skill/mechanic rebalance ever done?"

Mental Leteci · Feb 21, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Ritspikes won't disappear with 6v6, everything is the same.

tullers · Feb 21, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Please bring back 8v8

<3 Love you

JR · Feb 21, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

This poll is utterly pointless.

You are asking people to judge whether or not they like 8v8 with what are still unfinished and very sketchy win mechanics, which still need a lot of work and polishing before you can hope to see them enjoyed fully. Coupled with this your week of testing was plagued by the imbalance of certain skills. Weighed up against this as an alternative you have the memory of 6v6 with the old flawed win condition, and again: balance issues that had a strong negative effect on play in Heroes Ascent.

I have faith that the more intelligent posters here might be able to look past these issues and make an objective and well thought out decision, but the vast majority wont. It is ridiculous to expect people to make a sound decision either way untill you actually address the other issues with HA that have a large impact on the impression given.

That said - I did argue that 8v8 should be implimented before the other mechanics changes were added, but that was because the skill balance within Guild Wars is focused on 8v8 play - so that is by far the best base from which to experiment with other changes to gameplay.

I would honestly consider locking this trash if I thought it would make a difference.

wayn3h · Feb 21, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I would like 8v8 back. Though I would like it back in pretty much its original form. None of this kill count crap. These two kill count maps completely negate any reason to run anything other than spikes with fast recharges... (Rt spike anyone?). Maybe keep one killcount and change the other back to the old school altar style. Though personally I would like to see them gone altogether.

Actually I totally agree with Lord Mendes. This solution means there is no reason to run 100% holding builds, but still encourages variety.

Barrett · Feb 21, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

6v6 is too small a party for HA
i mean if u wanted to go do some Ha with your freinds and theres like 8of you how do u do it
more people = more fun = more of a challenge
Also i mean with 6people u never know how much dmg to have how much heal to have 8man was easy to balance out
6man to me seems alot harder to balance
but thats what i say

Diddy bow · Feb 21, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

i Prefer 8v8 im not really a hard core HA player but i find everthing to be a bit of a gimmick in 6v6

Swift The Cunning · Feb 21, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

I think 6v6 alll the way because my guild is small and when we want to do HA we will almost never have enough people for 8v8. If we ever do have 8 we want to do GvGs. When we only have 6 people online we can atleast then do HA. I also believe with 8v8 it brings back the old builds like spike builds which has no real creativity and doesnt exactly take all that much skill to play. With balanced you are using a variety of proffesions and it actualy takes alittle more skill to play with coordination ect. (no flaming me on these comments please

)

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 21, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

As far as numbers goes:

6v6 has several advantages that are "outside" team play:
* PUG formation is WAY less painful
* You can run a guild grp with only 6 people on (a frequent occurrence)
Since the HA format relies so heavily on PUGs and impromptu groups, these are significant advantages

However, once you get in, 8v8 is just more fun.

I consider it a tossup and am fine with it either way.

MORE IMPORTANTLY

I'd like to reiterate the sentiments of previous posters to:
* Return Broken Tower and Courtyard to their previous objectives
* Keep HoH the rotating objective (including Killcount)

As far as the Spike problem goes:
* Spikes will ALWAYS be a problem in HA ... even if you nerf rits. Simply because it is a tight enclosed 8v8 format where splitting is not feasible. You can fit WAY more defense and utility in a build if you only need to put in 8 offensive skills (one per bar) so a mixed spike will ALWAYS be the most effective build ... it is a problem with the overall format not a Rit-specific problem (though the current rit skills certainly exacerbate it).

Ray · Feb 21, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Eight versus Eight. Enough said.

Bastian · Feb 21, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

As far as numbers goes:
6v6 has several advantages that are "outside" team play:
* PUG formation is WAY less painful
* You can run a guild grp with only 6 people on (a frequent occurrence)

I think this is a common misconception because it seems obvious that 6v6 would mean quicker party formation. I, however, have found quite the opposite.

1) When 6v6 came back after the 8v8 week, I found my friends list shrinking again, and the people that were on were not interested in going in HA.

2) When I went to HA to look for a group, I found very few people even advertising for PUG's.

3) I believe that it is easier for guild groups to form for 6v6, however, that means less people PUGing in HA districts. When it is 8v8 I believe it is easier to find groups because there are a lot of people that don't have enough guildies/friends on to form a full 8v8 group. This means that they go to ID1 and advertise for 1 or 2 spots. This gives more opportunity for people looking for PUGs to get in groups quicker. I have had enormous success adding more friends to my list this past week than any time during 6v6.

4) From what I saw there were consistently more people in ID1 in 8v8 than 6v6. I usually had to spam the change district option in order to get in (even with 3 districts). In 6v6 this has never happened to me.

5) In 8v8 I saw both unranked and ranked PUGs forming. In 6v6 I saw mostly unranked PUGs forming. While it is good that people are going in there getting their deers, people with rank want to be able to get into HA too.

6) I honestly believe that the biggest reason people want to remain 6v6 is because it weakens spike teams. Which is the best reason for keeping it 6v6. However, I see much more degenerate play in 6v6 (such as abusing soul reaping). In 8v8 you can bring the counters for these types of builds. I believe Patccmoi's post to be the best possible situation if ANet retains the same maps. However, creating new maps with a bit more space to use would be ftw as well, IMO.