Curse

Thom Bangalter · Apr 13, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I've found from playing bars loaded with warrior hate that generally, teleporting warriors still give the spike away, because they stand around looking for a target before they teleport to him, because they are bad.

If they were good, they'd just kill shit.

Bankai · Apr 13, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

2 Warriors running towards a target is less noticeable than 2 warriors and 2 massive smoke screens.

Arkese · Apr 13, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Say whatever you think - I know that as a monk I prefer to play against a eurospike rather than against a pressure spike.
Vs eurospike you can easily see it coming, and even know if it's your frontline, midline or backline.
Vs pressure spike you never know if it is the warrior changing target or spiking, there's a big chance you'll be on the floor while miserably looking around and hoping they don't use their minds at that moment and get your teammates, and the spikes are much more powerful.

djbartek · Apr 13, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Limit shadowstepping to earshot range instead of radar range and it might prove much less ridiculous.

I would agree on that, but only on Recall, Shadow Meld(rotfl nerfing already useless skill

) and Shadow of Haste(if it's stats were brought back to their previous form). This change wouldn't have impact on normal shadowsteps(Return, Dark Prison) but it could hamper shadowsteps that are imo already ok(AoD, Shadow Walk).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

The non-elite offensive shadowsteps are balanced by their recharge imo and aren't much of a problem. The elite ones seem ok now i think.

Maybe they're balanced in GvG(I don't play), but at the same time they're pretty useless outside of it(using it more than once, twice in RA,TA is a miracle).
Damn I wish they made two different sets of recharges on them: one for GvG, and another for other forms of PvP(if it was only possible...) :-(

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Offensive teleporting is retarded, and takes the skill out of playing warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Adding a Dagger requirement is an easy way to remove the use of many or certain shadowsteps from adrenaline spike builds, also adding an adrenaline reduction of 1 or 2 strikes for any shadowstep skill can also be a disinstentive. If the reason for suppressing shadowstep effectiveness is another class, than a disability needs to be set for use with that other class, not assassin, assassin cannot abide by other classes strengths, assassin skills need to compensate for assassin weakness.

I think I don't need to comment that any more than BahamutKaiser did.

Seamus Finn · Apr 13, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Offensive teleporting is retarded, and takes the skill out of playing warrior.

This is true in a sense, but at the same time it nearly assumes that otherwise playing warrior takes skill. Of course, I can still run an easy-to-use and effective pressure war by using a steady stancer.

Death's Charge and Dark prison have big recharges, I probably wouldn't bother with them on a warrior just so 1 spike every minute might be harder to pick up on. As someone who monked through the whole eurospike phenom, I am surprised no one brought up that finding the wars after a port was never the problem. The actual spike of euro spike wasn't that great; the problem was trying to infuse a target while on your ass via gale and stacked with diversion and shame(since they shattered your veil). At 10 energy, I believe a warrior can still run SP but needs outside support(a weapon of fury rit for example), but all things considered, I can't really say that shadowsteps on warriors are a problem for the game at all. Remember, bad plays can always just caster spike.

Sinful Doom · Apr 13, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

This is true in a sense, but at the same time it nearly assumes that otherwise playing warrior takes skill. Of course, I can still run an easy-to-use and effective pressure war by using a steady stancer.

Playing a traditional warrior and not a gimmick warrior does take skill. Prior to teleportaion and this other crap the player ablility of people like Last Of Master, Bloodlight Eye's, The Custodian, (list could go on) was very noticable from any other warrior.

From a monk aspect yes I could see a "bad" warrior stand there waiting on a countdown in eurospike but always found it easier to either pre-prot or infuse vs warriors converging on a target. Plus with non-teleportaion warrior spike, characters can have a better awareness and pre-kite. If any of you here tomb and also monk go try and infuse vs dervish teleport spike and tell me its easier than if they had to run at a target...

TheOneMephisto · Apr 13, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

This is true in a sense, but at the same time it nearly assumes that otherwise playing warrior takes skill. Of course, I can still run an easy-to-use and effective pressure war by using a steady stancer.

Running a good warrior does take a lot of skill. How often do you see steady stance nowadays? You have to be able to know how to beat enemy prot, switch targets quickly, when to unload and when to save, how to converge for spikes without giving away targets, positioning, and countless other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Remember, bad plays can always just caster spike.

Eurospike WAS caster spike. The warrior's were just teleporting deep wounds with a 1/2sec attack added on.

Seamus Finn · Apr 14, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Eurospike WAS caster spike. The warrior's were just teleporting deep wounds with a 1/2sec attack added on.

That was sort of my point... Yes playing the general frenzy warrior is not a skill-less position. My point was, however, that you can play a war bar that requires little skill and still be effective(during the double fame weekend my guild had great success with steady stancers. Why they aren't more popular at the moment I am not sure. Conjure maybe?) Anyhow, teleporting wars ARE pretty much dead aren't they? I don't see how bringing up tele-wars can have any meaning in the thread given that fact(it takes the skill out of a class that can't really use the feature anyhow?).

Doom, I will say that Dervs are still pretty strong with a skill like shadowwalk due to the 3/4 attacks like mystic, but the first attack is still a hammer-speed swing. You will have to forgive on that one since I don't HA much...

Mesmer in Need · Apr 15, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I agree some shadowstepping is bad. If you use, say death's charge to get to your target you dont have to use any of the planning or anything to get to your target. But skills like recall, death's retreat, and recall are fine. Mainly recall because i like the deep.

djbartek · Apr 15, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

I agree some shadowstepping is bad. If you use, say death's charge to get to your target you dont have to use any of the planning or anything to get to your target. But skills like recall, death's retreat, and recall are fine. Mainly recall because i like the deep.

Shadowstepping is bad on WARRIORS who can port wherever they want without worrying too much about their survival(super high AL). The biggest fault of AN was letting other classes use them effectively, shadowsteps should be designed to work for sins ONLY(they were designed so sins can have at least a CHANCE to harras backline casters without being dead half way).
I hope that AN will have guts someday and they will put "lose all adrenaline" mechanic to shadowsteps because the biggest problem isn't imo shadowstepping itself, but the fact that warriors can use them without a real penalty(and, like some people say, they are even better at utilizing them than sins).

Blame the Monks · Apr 15, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

the biggest problem isn't imo shadowstepping itself, but the fact that warriors can use them without a real penalty

No, the biggest problem with shadowstepping is that it can pug three people rampaging your base with nothing you can do about it because they can instantly recall back and power play your other team. Infinite movement in spikes is a far cry from infinite movements in gvg where the game is won or lost by positioning and splits so often. Shadow prison warriors, on the other hand, were rendered obsolete by the eurospike nerf, which is why no one runs them.

djbartek · Apr 15, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

No, the biggest problem with shadowstepping is that it can pug three people rampaging your base with nothing you can do about it because they can instantly recall back and power play your other team. Infinite movement in spikes is a far cry from infinite movements in gvg where the game is won or lost by positioning and splits so often. Shadow prison warriors, on the other hand, were rendered obsolete by the eurospike nerf, which is why no one runs them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Limit shadowstepping to earshot range instead of radar range and it might prove much less ridiculous.

I would agree on that, but only on Recall, Shadow Meld(rotfl nerfing already useless skill ) and Shadow of Haste(if it's stats were brought back to their previous form). This change wouldn't have impact on normal shadowsteps(Return, Dark Prison) but it could hamper shadowsteps that are imo already ok(AoD, Shadow Walk).

I have agreed already that ss-ing whole radar range IS retarded, BUT only with the 3 skills I mentioned above.

Living Parasite · Apr 15, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Defensive Teleports do add flavor to the game and should be kept.

Patrick Smit · Apr 15, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

If an offensive shadow step is retarded, then a defensive one is equally retarded, and also takes away "skill" in play as u dont need to position and kite carefully, but u just push a button to instant escape.

Cirian · Apr 17, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Defensive teleports are excellent for escaping hex snares and/or cripple, and they're not perfect - they can be countered too. I'm not a fan of the offensive teleport and chain unloading though - what a crock that is. There are some offensive shadow steps that I find interesting though, like administering Blackout. (Shadow Walk -> Blackout -> cancel Recall if you need to get away).

Ultimately I think Teleports are less difficult to balance than say... Stealth.

Zuranthium · Apr 17, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

If an offensive shadow step is retarded, then a defensive one is equally retarded, and also takes away "skill" in play as u dont need to position and kite carefully, but u just push a button to instant escape.

Instant escape at the cost of energy. And you most definitely DO still need to kite. When using Return, it's absolutely ideal to kite a Warrior away from the team until you're at a good spot where using the spell wastes his time limping back over to the fight.

Defensive teleports are far less "retarded" than Blocking stances.

~Z

Riotgear · Apr 18, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Ultimately I think Teleports are less difficult to balance than say... Stealth.

Considering stealth is a terrible mechanic, this doesn't really say much.

Sinful Doom · Apr 18, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

When using Return, it's absolutely ideal to kite a Warrior away from the team until you're at a good spot where using the spell wastes his time limping back over to the fight.~Z

One of the biggest reason's I think teleportation is complete trash in this game.

jummeth · Apr 18, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

I do enjoy the after effects of tele warrior adreno spike thing. Now Monks have got a bad habit of not pre-protting and mid-lines also have a bad habit of not pre-kiting or kiting at all.

Everyone seems to have forgotten these things, so a pair of warriors can converge much faster on a spike since everyone is packed together. Since the two warriors have moved back to using weapon elites, the spikes are just so much more punchy. <3

Blame the Monks · Apr 18, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

I do enjoy the after effects of tele warrior adreno spike thing. Now Monks have got a bad habit of not pre-protting and mid-lines also have a bad habit of not pre-kiting or kiting at all.

Everyone seems to have forgotten these things, so a pair of warriors can converge much faster on a spike since everyone is packed together. Since the two warriors have moved back to using weapon elites, the spikes are just so much more punchy. <3

I disagree. Its not that good players disappeared or forgot, its that bad players can get so much higher on the ladder because the game is imbalanced.