Curse

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

One skill that is better than an entire line is bad for the game imo, but that's imo.

Hehe, sure, but that was only because of the extreme pressure it provided. With the current duration it allows you to make a strong push but also forces the Dervish to have a decent skillbar outside of just Grenth.

~Z

DutchSmurf · Apr 16, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If target foe is casting...
If target foe is moving...
If target foe is attacking...
If target foe is at less than X% hp...

And to a lesser extent, some have clauses like:

If target foe is enchanted...
If target foe is not enchanted...

Too bad the list of skills that work like this is very short. Even the warrior doesn't have that many skill like this. I can think of only 4 that are really used. Like it or not, most skills are just +damage and at times have an extra effect. So although I really want more skills like this, it isn't going to happen. If we want to get a working solution for the assassin, we need to set our goals a little lower.

And there will always be chains. Assassins have very obvious chains, but other professions are just as guilty. Sever+Gash+Final, about the oldest combo in the game. Knockdown+Crushing is another example. Only thing with those is that you can actually use them in another order too, they just won't do their maximum damage. If you try to do the same with assassins, you get what I suggested earlier. Skill X. if it hits it does A, if it follows type Z, it does B too.

TheOneMephisto · Apr 16, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

And there will always be chains. Assassins have very obvious chains, but other professions are just as guilty. Sever+Gash+Final, about the oldest combo in the game. Knockdown+Crushing is another example. Only thing with those is that you can actually use them in another order too, they just won't do their maximum damage. If you try to do the same with assassins, you get what I suggested earlier. Skill X. if it hits it does A, if it follows type Z, it does B too.

The problem with assassin chains vs warrior chains is that assassins aren't doing anything useful outside of their chains, while warriors do massive pressure outside of their chains. On top of this, as you said, warrior chains are still more flexible.

I'd suggest something like multiple effects for each skill, if it hits do A, if it follows type Z do B, if it follows type X do C, if opponent is doing K do D also. That would get majorly complicated though.

Also, assassins really do need chains that actually do something besides damage. When you look at warrior attacks, you're not only seeing damage, you're seeing deep wounds, spikes, KDs, movement control, interrupts, etc. When you look at assassin attacks you see... plus damage, some degen, unblockable (woot?), one deep wound, and some other stuff that is too gimped or too conditional (why so many hex reqs???) to be used.

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And as TheOneMephisto said, people are making suggestions on making assasins more than just a gimmicky concept. To say that people are only complaining means that you arent even reading the thread.

Until his latest post that added something productive, Neo actually really was just whining. BTW, Neo, I'm so happy you contributed those ideas. Hurray, that's what I was waiting for! I really doubt that A-net would take the time to undo attack chains and totally revamp all those Assassin skills, though. I do also believe that this unique feature of the Assassin is something which can still be incorporated into the game. Using an attack should allow the next one in the chain to be used on ANYBODY. I don't think the attack chains themselves are too much of a problem. Each Warrior weapon line already has attacks that basically require a certain attack order. Crushing Blow and Gash simply MUST follow another one of your skills to get the main effect (without taking what other teammates can do into consideration). Warrior attacks that empty the adrenaline pool are almost exactly like Dual Attacks as well - you HAVE to use them after other attacks, otherwise the remainder of your adrenaline "attack chain" is shut down.

Only Impale and Assault Enchantments should be tethered to a target, although I belive the "mark" from the Dual Attack should last 30 seconds and not leave that target if you start using Attack Skills on somebody else. That way you can use a Dual Attack on someone, go off and attack someone else, and then within those 30 seconds be able to switch back over to the original target with Impale or Assault Enchantments primed.

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 16, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Too bad the list of skills that work like this is very short. Even the warrior doesn't have that many skill like this. I can think of only 4 that are really used. Like it or not, most skills are just +damage and at times have an extra effect. So although I really want more skills like this, it isn't going to happen. If we want to get a working solution for the assassin, we need to set our goals a little lower.

Like I've said before, Im not interested in what is possible or what is practical - only what is right. And it does not matter how short the list is right now, since two of the central pieces of my argument are:

1) How long that list ought to be, and
2) How even if the list must be short, I would be content as long as the skills on the list are far superior to the skills not on the list, when (and only when) employed by a skilled player.

Quote:

And there will always be chains. Assassins have very obvious chains, but other professions are just as guilty. Sever+Gash+Final, about the oldest combo in the game. Knockdown+Crushing is another example. Only thing with those is that you can actually use them in another order too, they just won't do their maximum damage. If you try to do the same with assassins, you get what I suggested earlier. Skill X. if it hits it does A, if it follows type Z, it does B too.

I already answered this several pages ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

The difference is that a warrior does not have to chain his skills if he doesnt want to. Chaining plus-damage attacks together can provide a spike, and knocklocking someone can create a large amount of pressure. But these are just options. There are a near infinite number of ways that the warrior can choose to unload his attack skills by varying his order, target selection, and timing. A key feature of many many of those skills is that they only work well in certain situations (ala Bulls Strike or Prot Strike) so he must use those intelligently rather than throwing them out on recharge.

In contrast, there is the assasin. There is one and only one way to optimally play a typical assasin. Every 20 seconds, you select a target and 123456. Where as a warrior it is rewarding to wait until you sense the optimal time to unleash, this is hardly true for an assasin. Where as a warrior it may be prudent to only unload some attacks and save the rest for later and some other target, as an assasin, there is often only one choice: unload everything.

A big difference here is that warriors have meaningful auto-attacks, and their attack skills are merely extensions of these. Warrior damage is among the best in the game, and taking a beating from a bunch of warriors quickly accumulates into big pressure even if they are using no skills. This is why they can afford to wait for the opportune time to unleash. On the other hand, assasin autoattacks are fairly pitiful, but their attack skills are very powerful. Thus, the are their skills, making them more akin to a caster than a warrior. The only time that they are worth anything is during their 123456 spike. Do you know how many times on observer mode, sins dont even bother attacking between their spikes? They just sidestep back and forth, waiting to combo again.

Surely you can see the difference between a warrior flickering in and out of frenzy and rush to best optimize DPS, timing his bulls strikes to punish kiters, saving his shock until the moment he senses its KD will be most useful, and throwing his adren skills whatever manner he deems most effective - and an assasin with who sidesteps back and forth (or possibly contributes some irrelevent plinking damage) and unloads 123456 every 20 seconds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Until his latest post that added something productive, Neo actually really was just whining. BTW, Neo, I'm so happy you contributed those ideas. Hurray, that's what I was waiting for!

Imo my posts have been more full of suggestions than whining, I just chose to keep my suggestions generic since my complete list of changes that I would implement is very long. In my previous post I decided to be a little more specific. Your welcome, btw.

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Really, though, an Assassin with 2 Offhands + Death Blossom or 2 Offhands + 2 Duals does not have to simply sit on one target all the time. It's truly not the system's fault that MOST Assassin players choose to do 123456.

However, granted, it's not perfect either; RE: simply using an attack skill should open up the next attack universally. That's the reason why Lead + Offhand + Dual chains totally suck and have never seen high-level play (ignoring the fact that Lead Attacks + Lead Requiring Offhands are all underpowered...aside from Black Mantis Thrust and Wild Strike).

-------------------

In talking about unique Assassin abilities, I would really like to see attack skills that cause you to lunge/jump forward. In other words, the attack has a range of "Nearby" rather than "Adjacent" and if you aren't already right next to your opponent, the attack will move you up to them. In terms of game mechanics, they are basically very, very short range teleports. Leaping Mantis Sting, Golden Fox Strike, Fox Fangs, Falling Spider, Palm Strike, and Nine Tail Strike are the attacks that I would look to add that component to. Possibly Unsuspecting Strike as well.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Apr 16, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

In talking about unique Assassin abilities, I would really like to see attack skills that cause you to lunge/jump forward. In other words, the attack has a range of "Nearby" rather than "Adjacent" and if you aren't already right next to your opponent, the attack will move you up to them. In terms of game mechanics, they are basically very, very short range teleports. Leaping Mantis Sting, Golden Fox Strike, Fox Fangs, Falling Spider, Palm Strike, and Nine Tail Strike are the attacks that I would look to add that component to. Possibly Unsuspecting Strike as well.

O man, gale + falling spider would be intense.

But IMO, before working on unique assassin abilities, ANet needs to fix the combo system.

Living Parasite · Apr 16, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

The Combo System and 8 Skill Slots don't go together at all. You've reserved 3-4 skills for your combo. Rez Sig, and you've got 3-4 left. IAS, that's 2-3.

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

The Combo System and 8 Skill Slots don't go together at all. You've reserved 3-4 skills for your combo. Rez Sig, and you've got 3-4 left. IAS, that's 2-3.

That does not make sense. They aren't using up anymore skillslots than a Warrior would. An Assassin only NEEDS two attack skills - some kind of Offhand + Twisting Fangs. Pretty much the same as a Hammer Warrior who just needs a Knockdown + Crushing, a Sword Warrior who needs Cripslash/Sever + Gash, and an Axe Warrior who needs Eviscerate/Dismember + something else to spike with.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Apr 16, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That does not make sense. They aren't using up anymore skillslots than a Warrior would. An Assassin only NEEDS two attack skills - some kind of Offhand + Twisting Fangs. Pretty much the same as a Hammer Warrior who just needs a Knockdown + Crushing, a Sword Warrior who needs Cripslash/Sever + Gash, and an Axe Warrior who needs Eviscerate/Dismember + something else to spike with.

The problem with saying that is that a warrior technically doesn't need any attack skills, because he can do his job without doing anything but clicking on targets. All the attacks a warrior brings enhances his potential, from increasing spikes (eviscerate, final), increasing pressure (dragon slash), increasing movement control (bull's, cripslash), etc.

An assassin, on the other hand, is similar to a caster in that when he isn't using attack skills (or casting I guess), he's fairly worthless. Therefore, an assassin is his skills, to quote "Why Nuking Sucks". So an assassin either has to bring attack skills that he can chain/keep up for enough percentage of time that they do something (mobeius), or he has to bring attack skills that have a great effect in the time that he is using them (SP+chain).

An assassin's attack skills aren't enhancements, like the warrior's, they pretty much make up the assassin. Since his daggers do next to nothing, he relies on the +damage from skills to actually do anything.

Patccmoi · Apr 17, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

I agree that the combo system could use some reworking definitely, but honestly i could also see Assassins as becoming much more versatile by just reducing the lead/offhand requiring lead recharge a lot (shouldn't be more than 2-4s in general) and giving some interesting uses or effects (this i agree is lacking overall. There's too little interesting effect out of dual attacks. And i really like too all the 'while casting, while moving, while attacking' etc. clauses for those effects). And likely a nerf to the offhand-dual-offhand-dual combos (my suggestion to that has always been to make BSS an offhand requiring a lead or even a lead attack that just poisons).

The thing is, i don't believe that the lead-offhand-dual combo is such a bad system although i agree a better one could've been put in place to begin with. I played R/A quite a bit with Jagged-Wild Strike-Temple Strike-Exhausting Assault-Horns-Apply Poison-Natural Stride, and you actually have very good pressure that you can use as you wish. Jagged is always ready, and if Wild Strike fails to hit you can just reuse it again in a few seconds so block is no big deal. You can switch target at will and just restart your combo. Most of your skills have interesting effect (daze/blind, interrupt with exhaustion, kd, condition degen with Jagged since it does poison on top for -7 degen on a target, stance removal on Wild Strike which is useful if you face some non-block stances like MoR). The damage isn't that good because you don't have CS and Dagger is capped at 12, but the pressure/disruption you can put on people is actually really interesting, and if you want more damage you can switch a skill for DB.

And Assassins can work this way fine and could use all the Lead-Offhand-Dual combos really easily and switch target at will and reuse if the skills are blocked IF the recharge wasn't so retarded. I mean an attack skill with 10s recharge better have a REALLY REALLY good effect. DShot, Bull's Strike, Chilling Victory, they do. Jungle Strike? ya, right.

I know that a whole new system would be better. But i also know that they're not gonna do it, or it's at least EXTREMELY unlikely with GW:EN and GW2 in the work that they will take time to basically rebalance a full class from nothing. So while you might be only interested by what would be the best in a perfect world Neo, i'm interested with what can actually be implemented realistically to fix the Assassin problem. And i don't think that much is needed. A massive recharge reduction to lead/offhand requiring lead, a small nerf to the straight offhand-dual attack (and they could even have short recharge but some side effect. For example, a straight offhand could be 5/4 but have for side-effect 'the next dual attack skill does half damage' so that they're useful to reach the EFFECT of the dual attack quickly, say horns or twisting fangs, but not usable for 1-shot-kill combos). Along with a small buff to unusable utility (cause you know Assassins DO have nice utility skills potentially. Iron Palm, Entangling Asp... the problem with those is that their recharge is absolutely attrocious and Deadly Paradox only lets you use them in pretty bad Deadly Arts build because there's just no emanagement on sins to use spells), you could actually have a well-rounded profession that can do pressure in its own way and have much more interesting role than 123456 spikers.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 17, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Comparing an assassin combo to Eviscerate + Executioners is perfectly fair. In both cases, you'll typically use the skills in a certain sequence and they have an effect. Sure, you can save your Executioners for later and it still works, but randomly hitting people with Executioners isn't generally as good a play as chaining the two together.

The difference, of course, is that Eviscerate + Executioners is two slots, while sin combos are usually as much as four. When you make a warrior, you need to have a certain skill or combo that will allow you to quickly spike a target down because, through all the trickery and creativity, making red bars go down is what you're ultimately trying to do. You bring Executioners on a warrior for the same reason you bring Gift of Health on a prot monk - because, like it or not, you do need that basic red bar effect to do your job.

Of course, for warriors, there exists a huge variety of interesting skill-based utility skills that you can bring in addition to your one or two damage skills. When you build a GvG warrior, there's this incredible competition for skillslots, because there are so many powerful utility effects you want. You have to choose between tricks like Protector's Strike, sustainability like Healing Signet, fast adrenal gain like Enraging Charge...the list goes on and on, and how you build your warrior says more about your style of play than your skill at build creation.

For assassins, you fill four of your slots with a contrived 'combo', then select from the lackluster utility an assassin has available. There's some decent stuff that allows moderately interesting tricks (D-dagger, AoD, Shadow Prison and the like), but you can't fit enough of it to really make the guy a threat outside of his combo.

When an assassin combo consists of two skills and we have enough versatile utility to fill the rest of the bar, then maybe we can set about comparing them to warriors.

Zuranthium · Apr 17, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

What's also incredibly annoying about an Assassin is that you MUST have 12 in Dagger and 13 in Crit Strikes. The break points for the energy bonuses in Crit Strikes should be at 3, 7, and 12. Forcing the Assassin to go 12/13 means they basically HAVE to use a Major Rune to get Crit Strikes up to 13 if they want to have enough points to spend in another skill line or two to gain that much needed utility.

~Z

DutchSmurf · Apr 17, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Another problem is indeed that there are skills in the Critical Strikes line that shouldn't be there in the first place. Assassins are the only ones with attackskills linked to their weapon who aren't in the right attribute. With 3 of their strongest attacks there (Twisting Fangs, Critical Strikes and Unsuspecting Strike) you are forced to use 2 attributes already. Add points in Shadow Arts for your healing and you have no points left.
A warrior uses his main weapon for damage, tactics for healing and then can choose a 3rd one for whatever he wants. Also because most Strenght skills doesn't become that much more effective with more points in it.

And when that little problem is fixed, you get to the next problem. Warriors have combo's of 3 attack skills. Being either Crippling Slash+Gash+Sun and Moon, Evis+Crit+Exec, knockdown+crushing+random hammer attack. For the assassin to get the same, the lead+offhand+dual must be the best possible option. As Patccmoi said, a big decrease in recharge times might do the trick. Although Unsuspecting (4 sec) + Wild Strike (4 sec) + Critical Strike (6 sec) is an option. Only the added effect of that is..., wait, there is no added effect. So a global reduction in recharge might do the trick.

Rydrallen · Apr 18, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I do not think the assassin class is underpowered. On the contrary it's the warrior class that is overpowered and eclipses the assassin. A warrior can inflict consistent damage by normal attacking. The skills on his bar are luxuries that enchances his offensive potential.

An assassin, on the other hand, cannot pressure using normal attacks. The skills on his bar are not luxuries that enchances his offensive potential, rather, these skills are his offensive potentials. And of course on top of that the assassin has lower AL.

A class that can pressure, spike and tank VS a class that can only spike? The whole concept is imbalanced.

Patccmoi · Apr 18, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

I do not think the assassin class is underpowered. On the contrary it's the warrior class that is overpowered and eclipses the assassin. A warrior can inflict consistent damage by normal attacking. The skills on his bar are luxuries that enchances his offensive potential.

An assassin, on the other hand, cannot pressure using normal attacks. The skills on his bar are not luxuries that enchances his offensive potential, rather, these skills are his offensive potentials. And of course on top of that the assassin has lower AL.

A class that can pressure, spike and tank VS a class that can only spike? The whole concept is imbalanced.

The thing is, Assassin is closer to a caster than a warrior. And in that sense, their skill being their offensive potential is fine (that's what casters are!).

What i think they mostly lack in that sense is

1) Energy management that DOES NOT require you hitting. Something in Deadly Arts if possible, or even in Critical Strike (like throw a dagger and if it hits you gain x energy, w/e). Another option that i always wished they had was a Deadly Arts ranged weapon (say throwing daggers or shuriken) that would be similar to a wand but half cast range, dealing physical damage BUT with crit properties. This would allow them to stay behind a bit more between combos and have more energy to use their spells and a Deadly Arts assassin could still have some use for Critical Strikes.

2) A buff to their shutdown/disruption abilities (Deadly Arts/Shadow Arts). Because this SHOULD be their strength over warrior to have something else to do between their combos. But atm it's not really cause most are unusable.

If that happened, an Assassin could be used much more as a caster type char. Having possibly a small combo they can throw to spike assist, but also using more hexes/spells between combos to deal damage and mostly disrupt/shutdown targets.

It would be a much better class concept than '1 man spiker' which is just BS in GW.

Symbol · Apr 18, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Skill should be the number one deciding factor in deciding the outcome of any given match, but it isnt right now. Im suggesting ways to fix that. What-is-so-difficult-to-understand-about-this. I would much rather reward those that outplayed their opponent in the game, rather than those who outguessed them beforehand. And I disagree that builds should have a direct material impact. They should be elements of style, nothing more.

I don't believe the game is at the dire point that you describe. Outside of certain builds/map combinations (hexes on Jade...) a well designed balanced played well can usually come out on top.

As for the rest, I disagree. I think out of match strategy adds depth to the game. Players should be able to gamble based upon what they think opponent is running-with all the attendant risks and rewards. It should never guarantee them a win of course, but it should matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo LD

This part doesnt make any sense. I believe you are trying to tell me that I should stop complaining about skills that dont require skill, because they dont see any play?

No, I'm saying that saying the "vast majority of skills in Guild Wars require very little skill to use" is a moot point when the "vast majority of skills" are just plain bad. Skills that don't see play, for whatever reason, just don't matter.

Now if they were to be reworked to be viable at some point, I'd like to see it done in such a way that rewards skillful play and not button mashing, but as it stands...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If that is indeed what you are saying, then Im confused. I've been making the case for rewarding player skill for a long time before this thread, and my targets for offending skills have included Avatar of Grenth, Aegis, Light of Delieverance, Heal Party, Shadow Prison, Ritualist spirits, Necro Hexes, Energizing Finale, Steady Stance, Mantra of Recovery, and Conjures. Forgive me, but those skills dont seem to quite fit into the category you imply.

I actually agree with you on most of those skills, except possibly LoD/Heal Party.

About the assassin:

The main problems are three fold
(1) Rigid combo system
(2) Heavy dependence on primary attribute
(3) Bad utility in supporting skill lines (I'd actually say that shadow is worse off than deadly at this point)

That said I think certain assassin builds don't get enough credit here. Moebius for one is a build that isn't fragile at all, and one where you can build a lot of flexibility onto the bar. When your main damage dealers are on a 2s recharge, and your combo openers can be recharged by moebius it's hard to claim that (1) matters all that much.

If I were to rework (1), I'd make it so that any dagger attack could hit at any time, but you only get the +damage if you chain them in the right order. But the ancillary effects (cripple, deep wound, etc) would always come into play.
The key thing would be to make sure that these effects are worth it. Here's a list of dagger attacks I would actually use outside of a combo:

Black Mantis Thrust
Exhausting Assault
Golden Lotus Strike
Disrupting Stab
Horns of the Ox
Twisting Fangs

BMT because it's a reliable cripple, exhausting because it's a nice interrupt (two chances to hit) with a fairly debilitating effect, GLS for the e, disrupting stab for the spell disable (though it really needs to be a fast attack to be worth it). Horns for the KD and Twisting Fangs for the deep wound + bleeding.

Honestly though, I agree with Pat. If the recharges are sufficiently low lead-offhand-dual will be viable. Not optimal, but viable.

(2) is a problem that can only really be fixed by changing the CS breakpoints or by putting more utility into critical strikes. I think having some sort of semi-decent self heal into CS would do a lot to open up build possibilities. (3) is self explanatory, at least deadly arts has good stuff like siphon speed, expose defenses, and impale which make it worth investing in for those alone. Shadow has what? A few crappy self heals and some shadow steps that teleport you randomly? BFD.

Zuranthium · Apr 18, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Another option that i always wished they had was a Deadly Arts ranged weapon (say throwing daggers or shuriken) that would be similar to a wand but half cast range, dealing physical damage BUT with crit properties. This would allow them to stay behind a bit more between combos and have more energy to use their spells and a Deadly Arts assassin could still have some use for Critical Strikes.

This idea is brilliant! Shurikens - a one-handed weapon with the attack speed of a Spear and the same damage/double-strike properties of a Dagger. Now we also need some kind of Deadly Arts off-hand item. Maybe a smoke ball?

~Z

Lodurr · Apr 19, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

This idea is brilliant! Shurikens - a one-handed weapon with the attack speed of a Spear and the same damage/double-strike properties of a Dagger. Now we also need some kind of Deadly Arts off-hand item. Maybe a smoke ball?

~Z

Seriously, Patccmoi just won.

The Ernada · Apr 19, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

This idea is brilliant! Shurikens - a one-handed weapon with the attack speed of a Spear and the same damage/double-strike properties of a Dagger. Now we also need some kind of Deadly Arts off-hand item. Maybe a smoke ball?

~Z

Nah. I think the assassin would wield a shuriken or throwing dagger in each hand for balance issues and sticking to the concept especially since you mention the double strike properties.

But I agree that would be pretty damn cool.