Curse

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I'd think the problem there would be it made a bad player look better than he/she actually is, and makes a good player look worse than he/she actually is.

But there are lots of builds like that in the game already? And since none of them are top-tier, it makes me wonder why the "good" player is using it?

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 16, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

For the third time now, Zuranthium, this is not just about Shadow Prison. Shadow Prison is an example of a larger trend of skills that either DO see lots of play or DID see lots of play in the past. The whole point here is that guild wars pvp, even at the top of the ladder, has a had a HISTORY of being INFESTED with things that dont reward player skill. I will bring out my abbreviated list, yet again: (it actually gets bigger and bigger as I remember more things from metagames past)

Avatar of Grenth, Aegis, Light of Delieverance, Heal Party, Shadow Prison, Ritualist spirits, Necro Hexes, Paragon Shouts, Energizing Finale, Steady Stance, Mantra of Recovery, Recall, Shadow of Haste, and Conjures.

All of them are bad for the game. All of them either are or have been dominant in high level pvp at some point. Dont say for a second that this argument is not relavent to high level pvp. And I could care less about flavor. Diversity is expendable if Rewarding Player Skill demands it.

Im going to sleep now, I'll get around to responding to Squidget's post in the tomorrow.

The Ernada · Apr 16, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Of all the skills on an SP sins' bar, Shadow Prison probably rewards player skill the most.

That doesnt really say much since 1234 button mashing requires no skill at all. I still dont see how SP requires as much skill as you say it does other than using it at the right time (which isn't a very narrow window of opportunity at all with SP on your bar)

And I could say Diversion took less skill than a simple interrupt because it didnt require precise timing the way an interrupt does. Diversion has been nerfed quite a few times because it was that good and easy to use.

You're right about the combo system of the assassin that makes them little more than a gimmicky build though. But SP makes the button mashing combo even easier to execute. I've always thought the concept of assassins was stupid in a game like GW though. A potential one man spike is just bad design, no matter how fragile that character is.

TLLOTS · Apr 16, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I've sort of strayed from the topic of Shadow Prison, but debating whether Shadow Prison takes skill away from assassins just seems laughable to me, because it implies that the assassin class rewards 'skill' to begin with. All the current SP assassin template proves is that if you can only use your skills in one way and that combo is moderately effective, the build will be powerful even in the hands of bad players. Who would have guessed?

You're right of course, the combo system is the biggest culprit for the Assassins problems. I have to wonder though just how hard it would be to at least partially undo the combo system. Since I honestly don't expect ANet to ever do away with it entierly, perhaps instead they could just give Assassin attacks a base effect, e.g. +damage or a condition, and if it follows an appropriate attack, then you get an extra secondary effect. You could even then have skills which have differing effects for more than one attack type, e.g. if the previous attack was a lead attack it knocks down the target, while if it was a dual attack it would add extra damage. Then there'd be the potential for the combo system to be something really really interesting, where you only bring 3 or 4 attack skills, but you mix up the order you use them in depending on what you want to do.

zakaria · Apr 16, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

..But SP makes the button mashing combo even easier to execute.

Good luck on unloading combo on kited foe that doesn't give you chance to finish it. SP is one of the best skills that fulfills sin's task (spiking/ganking)

Quote:

I've always thought the concept of assassins was stupid in a game like GW though. A potential one man spike is just bad design, no matter how fragile that character is.

IMO..developers thought that they are pumping fresh bloods to GvG mechanic by introducing prof is specifically designed for solo splitting and has the capabilities to survive alone in 1v1 environment, what happened is that everyone abused his utilities skills in secondary profession (W/A, R/A, E/A) that made sin more weaker and resulting one dimensional build that we see it till now.

Shadow stepping wasn't meant to be in hands of other professions because it was simply devastating, it was suppose to be unique feature just for sin.

Elrodien · Apr 16, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

I would have thought the developers knew damn well that other professions would use 'sin skills. Their problem is that they have no idea how a new professions skills are going to integrate into the game until the skills are out there and being used and abused.

Btw, I really hope they continue with this more dynamic skill balance format. Its what they should have been doing from the start.

DutchSmurf · Apr 16, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The combo system, not Shadow Prison, is what keeps assassins from becoming more than a gimmicky class for bad players. You must use these skills in this exact sequence or they don't even hit the opponent. Even if they weren't conditional, most of the assassin skills aren't interesting to begin with. One skill poisons the target, another skill does +damage, and most of the things with actual interesting effects are dual attacks like Horns of the Ox and Twisting Fangs.

Only solution for it is dropping all the "needs to follow" parts of the skills. Of course not all skills will need to be changed, since skills like Repeating Strike work fine. But make some of the skills something like this:
Fox Fangs Off-Hand Attack. Fox Fangs strikes for +5...25 damage if it hits. If it follows a lead attack, Fox Fangs cannot be "blocked".
Wild Strike Off-Hand Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...30 damage. If it follows a lead attack, any Stance being used by target foe ends.
Jungle Strike Off-Hand Attack. If it hits a foe that was Crippled, it does +1...25 damage. If it follows a lead attack, it does +10...25 damage.

Critical Strike. Dual Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. If it follows an off-hand attack, Critical strike results in a critical hit, and you gain 1...3 Energy.

Something like that. Doubt it really works, but it is an idea.

Patrick Smit · Apr 16, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Making it not a part of a chain makes button mashing on assassin even worse as not checking if the chain went wrong doesnt get punished anymore. Assassins would ventually become even more damaging, ind diverting the chain is becoming futile.

DutchSmurf · Apr 16, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Making it not a part of a chain makes button mashing on assassin even worse as not checking if the chain went wrong doesnt get punished anymore. Assassins would ventually become even more damaging, ind diverting the chain is becoming futile.

Why would they become more button mashing then a dervish/paragon/warrior at the moment are?

Neo-LD · Apr 16, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

If I were to start fixing assasin attack skills, the linking of lead-offhand-dual would be the first thing to go as well, so I like that idea. However, Dutchsmurf, if you leave in place a system that still rewards using "skill 2" immedeately after "skill 1", (even though they technicially dont have to) then I believe you'll find that people will still play sins as 123456 bots. There would be little reason to use those skills out of order or in reaction to certain situations, if they are still always most effective in the chain.

Imo, the best-implemented attack skills in the game, and the ones that I would immedeately start pumping into the assasin class, are ones that reward a player for recognizing and reacting to situations they dont control, and/or anticipating their opponents actions. Such attack skills have clauses like

If target foe is casting...
If target foe is moving...
If target foe is attacking...
If target foe is at less than X% hp...

And to a lesser extent, some have clauses like:

If target foe is enchanted...
If target foe is not enchanted...

Elrodien · Apr 16, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Imo, the best-implemented attack skills in the game, and the ones that I would immedeately start pumping into the assasin class, are ones that reward a player for recognizing and reacting to situations they dont control, and/or anticipating their opponents actions. Such attack skills have clauses like

If target foe is casting...
If target foe is moving...
If target foe is attacking...
If target foe is at less than X% hp...

And to a lesser extent, some have clauses like:

If target foe is enchanted...
If target foe is not enchanted...

You hit it on the head I think. This would bring the skill to a 'sins bar. Great idea

Byron · Apr 16, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I've always been on the opinion that shadow prison is used so heavily because all the other sin elites are either trash or of a specific use. If not for recall, I'm not sure that any sins would get play in this meta, tbh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The combo system, not Shadow Prison, is what keeps assassins from becoming more than a gimmicky class for bad players.

Very much QFT. Sins seem to be bad for reliable gvg play in general. Say the off-hand doesnt hit- now you sit around for xx seconds. Simply unacceptable in balls-to-the-wall GvG play. At best, I think, normal dagger attacks can serve as some kind of linebacking.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 16, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Dagger attacks should have a guaranteed effect that always happens, and a bonus effect if used in the correct order.
Or just scrap the combo system altogether.

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

For the third time now, Zuranthium, this is not just about Shadow Prison. Shadow Prison is an example of a larger trend of skills that either DO see lots of play or DID see lots of play in the past.

BUT. IT'S. NOT. There are many different ways to utilize the skill. Energizing Final (and other Paragon abilities), Rit Lord Defensive Spirit Spam, Shadow of Haste, Overpowered Hex Spam, and Steady Stance are the only things on your list that I would label as having been exclusively bad for the game. Grenth was simply overpowered (I rather like pushing the game into having more Healing + Ritualist Prot abilities rather than all Enchantment Prot) and MoR, LoD, Heal Party, Aegis, Recall, and Conjures are just fine.

And if you don't like flavor...go play Counterstrike and munch on some potato chips?

~Z

The Ernada · Apr 16, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

Good luck on unloading combo on kited foe that doesn't give you chance to finish it. SP is one of the best skills that fulfills sin's task (spiking/ganking)

And that's why some are aguing that combos are a bad concept. Either they're "useless" or in certain builds they're brainless button mashing made even easier with skills like SP.

NEO-LD's suggestions were excellent by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

And if you don't like flavor...go play Counterstrike and munch on some potato chips?

Leave that garbage in the general section. Frankly, I've been sick of your attitude here.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 16, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Grenth was simply overpowered (I rather like pushing the game into having more Healing + Ritualist Prot abilities rather than all Enchantment Prot)

One skill that is better than an entire line is bad for the game imo, but that's imo.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 16, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If I were to start fixing assasin attack skills, the linking of lead-offhand-dual would be the first thing to go as well, so I like that idea. However, Dutchsmurf, if you leave in place a system that still rewards using "skill 2" immedeately after "skill 1", (even though they technicially dont have to) then I believe you'll find that people will still play sins as 123456 bots. There would be little reason to use those skills out of order or in reaction to certain situations, if they are still always most effective in the chain.

Imo, the best-implemented attack skills in the game, and the ones that I would immedeately start pumping into the assasin class, are ones that reward a player for recognizing and reacting to situations they dont control, and/or anticipating their opponents actions. Such attack skills have clauses like

If target foe is casting...
If target foe is moving...
If target foe is attacking...
If target foe is at less than X% hp...

And to a lesser extent, some have clauses like:

If target foe is enchanted...
If target foe is not enchanted...

Absolutely. The good conditionals are the ones that turn up in every match, like moving or attacking. Weaker conditionals are things that are overly metagame or build dependent - several of the based assassin skills have this stupid "while hexed" clause that forces you to either run a hex build or bring some quick-casting hex on your bar. If you bring your own hex, you pretty much have to accept that the enemy monks will know what's coming and be well-prepared (except Shadow Prison, of course.)

The other problem with assassin skills is the effects. There are a couple decent effects spread around the assassin skill trees - knockdowns, cripples, deep wounds, and the odd interrupt. Unfortunately, most of the attack skills just apply +damage or degen or something else that really doesn't force the enemy monks to care at all. Having an attack skill that deals random degen conditions is almost a detriment right now because of RC, unless those conditions are burying something that's going to actually kill the target.

The only really unique effect in Dagger Mastery is Exhausting Assault, which I think could be interesting if it were ever made playable. There could definitely be some skill involved in building exhaustion on key targets and keeping track of the other team's exhaustion. I'd only worry about it because Exhaustion works so much better in multiples (you don't want to force teams to choose between multiple assassins and no assassins at all), but it's a mechanic that I think is at least worth exploring.

djbartek · Apr 16, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Leave that garbage in the general section. Frankly, I've been sick of your attitude here.

Because he and few others try to point out some positives of sins and suggest how to change them to be better, while others only complain how "sins should be scraped because they add something to the game we don't want".

Oh and BTW next time when there is new thread about new update maybe rather than "New skill update" title it "A class for noobs-complaining about sins". It will better describe its content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If I were to start fixing assasin attack skills, the linking of lead-offhand-dual would be the first thing to go as well, so I like that idea. However, Dutchsmurf, if you leave in place a system that still rewards using "skill 2" immedeately after "skill 1", (even though they technicially dont have to) then I believe you'll find that people will still play sins as 123456 bots. There would be little reason to use those skills out of order or in reaction to certain situations, if they are still always most effective in the chain.

Imo, the best-implemented attack skills in the game, and the ones that I would immedeately start pumping into the assasin class, are ones that reward a player for recognizing and reacting to situations they dont control, and/or anticipating their opponents actions. Such attack skills have clauses like

If target foe is casting...
If target foe is moving...
If target foe is attacking...
If target foe is at less than X% hp...

And to a lesser extent, some have clauses like:

If target foe is enchanted...
If target foe is not enchanted...

Good one, but I see one problem: sins dagger dmg without their attacks is REALLY bad, so unless their effects will be really good or recharge times very low(1-4 s max), this change will hamper sins even more(considering you will make the better effects of them to work only when the requirement is met)

TheOneMephisto · Apr 16, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Because he and few others try to point out some positives of sins and suggest how to change them to be better, while others only complain how "sins should be scraped because they add something to the game we don't want".

Oh and BTW next time when there is new thread about new update maybe rather than "New skill update" title it "A class for noobs-complaining about sins". It will better describe its content.

The only sin template that I think is any good is maybe a mobius strike, but it's so fragile that it never sees play either way.

Everyone else is suggesting ways to make drastic changes to the thinking of how a sin's attacks should be built, suggesting changes that will possibly allow the sin to become used without becoming gimmicky.

The Ernada · Apr 16, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Because he and few others try to point out some positives of sins and suggest how to change them to be better, while others only complain how "sins should be scraped because they add something to the game we don't want".

Did you even look at what I quoted? Or what I even said. I took issue with the snide comments and attitude he took. Leave that crap fpr the PVE crowd and just stick to discussion here, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Oh and BTW next time when there is new thread about new update maybe rather than "New skill update" title it "A class for noobs-complaining about sins". It will better describe its content.

This is exactly the kind of garbage I was talking about that isnt needed.

And as TheOneMephisto said, people are making suggestions on making assasins more than just a gimmicky concept. To say that people are only complaining means that you arent even reading the thread.