Curse

The Ernada · Apr 14, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Just because a skilled player plays a certain build really well doesnt mean that the build isnt very very easy to play. And please, I didnt say ALL assassin builds are like SP assassins. And I never said I wanted the whole class deleted. Dont be putting words into my mouth.

I WASNT the one who keeps yelling about buffing SP. I was arguing against a buff like that because certain people were screaming about how worthless it was and yet they call us whiners?

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

So what? You pick one skill out a thousand that doesn't require skill to use-and this is somehow ruining the game?

Actually, the vast majority of skills in Guild Wars require very little skill to use. Many of them are too spammable - spam doesnt reward skill. Many have effects that last too long - set and forget spells dont reward player skill. Some spells have such a narrow radius of usage that a monkey could understand when to use them. Some skills are genuinely bad for the game and remove required skill, ala Shadow Prison. I believe that under these categories I have encompassed at least 3/4 of the skills in guilds wars. So no, Im blowing one the problems with a single skill out of proportion. Im using Shadow Prison as an example of a larger trend that goes well beyond assasins or shadow prison.

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Spare me the hysterics. Dom mesmers, water eles, mind blasters, warriors and monks of all stripes, all of these builds see heavy use and take skill to play. Furthermore there are templates from the non core classes that require skill (weapon rits, moebius sins, etc) and see play.

Mostly correct, except for Mind Blast Eles. The role of offensive nuker in Guild Wars has been pretty terribly implemented, its spells should be more versatile and devastating, rewarding player skill by rewarding those who choose their spots and times for unleashing carefully. This is a thin line to walk since one would have to be careful not to make a spike imbalanced. In their current form, Mind Blast Eles are just button mashers.

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Frankly I'd much rather have a game with a few skill-less templates (SP spikers, hex stackers are the only ones that spring to mind) with some diversity rather than everyone one using the same build-even if the components of said build require skill to use.

Nowhere did I state that "only" FPS games require skill. But FPS are a good example because your success is determined solely by your performance in the game. Guild Wars is not such a game. Build making is part of the strategy of Guild Wars PvP. Building to give yourself an advantage over your opponent is part of the game by design. Pretending that a metagame where the build-making component was marginalized is anything but broken is delusional, no matter how much fun you thought that was or how much skill you thought it took to play.

I like diversity as much as the next guy, but only as long as player skill remains the number one deciding factor in determining the winner of any one match. Builds were meant to be a part of Guild Wars, but only a part. Right now, due to the nature of map selection (homefield advantage for the lower ranked team) one team has an overwhelming, often unstoppable advantage. Build making needs to be a minor detail, an art that can help a team tailor their tools to match their style. Nothing more.

I can only speak for myself, but I didnt sign up to play rock-paper-scissors. Im here to play Guild Wars.

Symbol · Apr 14, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo LD

Actually, the vast majority of skills in Guild Wars require very little skill to use. Many of them are too spammable - spam doesnt reward skill. Many have effects that last too long - set and forget spells dont reward player skill. Some spells have such a narrow radius of usage that a monkey could understand when to use them. Some skills are genuinely bad for the game and remove required skill, ala Shadow Prison. I believe that under these categories I have encompassed at least 3/4 of the skills in guilds wars. So no, Im blowing one the problems with a single skill out of proportion. Im using Shadow Prison as an example of a larger trend that goes well beyond assasins or shadow prison.

The majority of skills in GW are unplayable as far as organized PvP goes. I'd consider that a far greater problem than "skill".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo LD

Mostly correct, except for Mind Blast Eles. The role of offensive nuker in Guild Wars has been pretty terribly implemented, its spells should be more versatile and devastating, rewarding player skill by rewarding those who choose their spots and times for unleashing carefully. This is a thin line to walk since one would have to be careful not to make a spike imbalanced. In their current form, Mind Blast Eles are just button mashers.

I disagree. Mind blast as a form of energy management is if anything less mindless than other options (like attunements and the eprodigy of yore). You actually have to pay attention to what you're targeting and how much time you spend casting mind blast vs something else, as well as carry a +E set and switch to it when necessary. Otherwise you can very quickly find yourself in a energy hole where you have to resort to mind blasting wars to get your energy back up. As for the rest of the bar, it depends. Carrying searing heat/tenai's heat for example can be quite effective in the right build, as these are skills that are dangerous if used well and useless if used badly. Fireball is another skill that rewards spotting AoE opportunities, the blast radius is small but the recharge is quick so you can get quite a bit of extra damage by being on the ball. Then there's other utility that you can fit on that bar that often takes skill (like ward vs foes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo LD

I like diversity as much as the next guy, but only as long as player skill remains the number one deciding factor in determining the winner of any one match. Builds were meant to be a part of Guild Wars, but only a part. Right now, due to the nature of map selection (homefield advantage for the lower ranked team) one team has an overwhelming, often unstoppable advantage. Build making needs to be a minor detail, an art that can help a team tailor their tools to match their style. Nothing more.

Yes map selection is a problem. But it's not a fundamentally hard problem and a fix is reportedly in the works. Apart from that what is there? Looking at top ranked teams all I see is variants of balanced builds. Granted those builds may occasionally use dervishes, assassins, or ritualists, but is that such a bad thing?

If success was 60-70% skill and 30-40% build I'd be happy, that strikes me as a good balance and I don't think (map issues notwithstanding) that we're that far from there today.

Riotgear · Apr 14, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If "player skill" was the only thing that mattered we wouldn't be playing Guild Wars, we'd be playing a FPS.

As someone put it in another thread, FPS is largely about physical twitch, GW is more about mental twitch. Please tell me how factors that make it more difficult for player skill to determine the outcome of a match are good for the game.

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Longing for the good old days where everyone played dual esurge, dual gale war balanced because it required skill is totally asinine-

I'd say GWFC was probably the closest to "balanced" the game has been. Arguing that things used to be worse at one point does not change the fact that they also used to be better at a different one. The meta is much better now than it was a couple patches ago, but that does not mean there isn't noticeable room for improvement.

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For the 123456 BoA build, maybe.

MAYBE?

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Frankly I'd much rather have a game with a few skill-less templates (SP spikers, hex stackers are the only ones that spring to mind) with some diversity rather than everyone one using the same build-even if the components of said build require skill to use.

When nerfing a skill-less template doesn't damage templates that do require skill.... why not? How would nerfing Shadow Prison do anything other than make it harder for bad players to win?

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Are you going to suggest the way EvIL played with 2 sins was skill less?

Again, EVIL will play whatever wins, whether it requires skill or not. Nobody thinks the bugged SOGM required skill, but you'd have to have been an idiot to not run it, which is why the top teams ran it. SP/BoA requires no skill to use effectively. Shadow Prison sucks the skill requirement out of any build with it, it always has, because it basically lets your melee stop being melee and do caster spike instead.

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Awesome post, Patccmoi!

Some solid points as well Symbol!

I think Neo needs to be forced into a chair Clockwork-Orange style to see and read about some things. Hehe, sorry buddy.

~Z

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Again, EVIL will play whatever wins, whether it requires skill or not. SP/BoA requires no skill. Shadow Prison sucks the skill requirement out of any build with it, it always has, because it basically lets your melee stop being melee and do caster spike instead.

SP/BoA has nothing to do with EVIL. The Assassins they used didn't have very strong builds at all (such a thing was impossible when Assassins first came out) and would be even worse if played these days. EVIL was using something that was NOT top-tier at all, but they LIKED it and were GREAT at using what was available to them.

Aside from that little tidbit, though, it's totally brainless to call SP...brainless. Read what Pat wrote at the end of the last page. The easiest of all Assassin builds would certainly be the 123456, but it's not the scariest thing out there in terms of melee pressure. So who cares. Not-Great players that got owned by it, I suppose...

~Z

Div · Apr 14, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If "player skill" was the only thing that mattered we wouldn't be playing Guild Wars, we'd be playing a FPS. Like it or not builds matter. Out of match strategy matters. Longing for the good old days where everyone played dual esurge, dual gale war balanced because it required skill is totally asinine-that was a pathological metagame with only one really viable build at high levels of play, and IMO almost as bad as the other extreme of builds deciding the outcome before the match starts.

The game is different now. There is a huge amount of diversity in builds. Warriors aren't limited to one secondary. Monks use more than one bar. Mesmers and elementalists use elites other than esurge or ether prodigy. The non core professions all see play (and each have more than one viable build). The obvious imbalances of the past few months are gone or severely toned down (jagged bones, rit spikes, soul reaping abuse, Grenth's, rending sweep + hexes, wearying + Melandru's, etc).

Actually by definition if there is little diversity and all the teams only play one build (or a very similar build), the winner is decided by whichever team has more player skill. Now it's all about finding the perfect build (or copying it from observer mode) and outpowering everyone else with inferior builds. So yes, I'd say it took more skill to play the dual gale dual esurge since everyone's playing mirror matches, and the winner goes to the one with the best skill, not the best build.

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Wrong assumption on your part - it's "ALL" about your build these days. Such a bad exaggeration.

It IS true that if only one general build was prevalent, the team with the most skill wins. But that's incredibly stagnant as well. I'd prefer to have much more varity and a little bit more of a rock-paper-scissors variable.

~Z

Symbol · Apr 14, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Please tell me how factors that make it more difficult for player skill to determine the outcome of a match are good for the game.

Where did I say this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'd say GWFC was probably the closest to "balanced" the game has been. Arguing that things used to be worse at one point does not change the fact that they also used to be better at a different one. The meta is much better now than it was a couple patches ago, but that does not mean there isn't noticeable room for improvement.

Of course there's room for improvement, I just think Neo-LD's position is extreme to the point of absurdity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

When nerfing a skill-less template doesn't damage templates that do require skill.... why not? How would nerfing Shadow Prison do anything other than make it harder for bad players to win?

I don't believe I've said anything one way or the other about Shadow Prison. Personally I couldn't care less what happens to it, if it gets nerfed into oblivion that's fine by me. If it stays the way it is, that's also fine.

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

Actually by definition if there is little diversity and all the teams only play one build (or a very similar build), the winner is decided by whichever team has more player skill. Now it's all about finding the perfect build (or copying it from observer mode) and outpowering everyone else with inferior builds. So yes, I'd say it took more skill to play the dual gale dual esurge since everyone's playing mirror matches, and the winner goes to the one with the best skill, not the best build.

Yeah, no shit. If everyone is playing the same build then player skill is the sole determinant of the outcome. But to call that a desirable state of affairs is ridiculous, because you've removed a huge component of the game (build making and pre-match strategy) entirely.

zakaria · Apr 14, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If you dont think that Gale Warriors, ESurge Dom Mesmers, Prodigy Emos, CripShot Rangers, and BoonMonks were/are among the most skillful character templates in the game, then God help you - because I cant.

Ironically all these templates that you are talking about have been nerfed, can you ask yourself why Anet nerfed them if these templates need skillful players to run ? because it didn't..

LightningHell · Apr 14, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

Ironically all these templates that you are talking about have been nerfed, can you ask yourself why Anet nerfed them if these templates need skillful players to run ? because it didn't..

They were nerfed due to them overshadowing other builds, not because they didn't require skill.

Riotgear · Apr 14, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

it's totally brainless to call SP...brainless.

I could buy a G15 and bind a key to F1-T-1-2-3-4-5-6-F2-C-Space, and farm fame with my eyes closed. If that's not brainless, I don't know what is.

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Where did I say this?

Dismissing player skill as unimportant or "for FPSes" would imply that GW benefits from things which de-emphasize player skill, which in turn would make it more difficult for player skill to determine match outcomes.

As far as "build wars" goes, you could compare builds to races in RTSes. They work differently, and they allow you to project your ability through something that is most compatible with your personal preferences. They should determine how you need to react, not determine whether or not you are capable of reacting.

In essence, build diversity allows skill to be separated from style, and allows players to spend less time fighting the game mechanics. "Build wars" does the opposite by overly punishing or rewarding players based on how they prefer to play rather than how well they play.

DutchSmurf · Apr 14, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I could buy a G15 and bind a key to F1-T-1-2-3-4-5-6-F2-C-Space, and farm fame with my eyes closed. If that's not brainless, I don't know what is.

I would love to see you try that. Somehow I have the feeling that you won't get far.
The problem of the BoA-assassin is that almost everyone can play it at a more or less decent level. Since most players in GW aren't that skilled (there is a reason why people using heros won in HA that often) you get a situation in which 2 not so skilled players fight each other. One uses the BoA-assassin, the other person something else, BoA-assassin wins. If the same BoA-assassin fights a skilled player who thought about his build, the skilled player will probably win. Why? Because the skilled player took a counter. Being either hexremoval+stance, a knockdown or something else. If the skilled player didn't take a counter and still got killed, he isn't a skilled player.
In GvG the BoA-assassin isn't a real problem at all. As ganker I really doubt if they are faster then the assassins used by EviL. And at the stance they do no presure except trying to spike every 20 seconds. Unless the assassin is skilled, you won't see many kills there (I think reacting on an overextending warrior requires skill).

The assassin becomes a bigger problem in the smaller arenas. So to give this post something to discuss, let me add a suggestion to fix the problem. Change Expose Defenses too:
For 5...17 seconds, if target foe isn't the target of another hex, that foe cannot "block" your attacks.
So a bit like Shadowy Burden. Means you either snare him with SP, but then he can block your attacks OR you cannot be blocked but he can run away. Might make it "isn't the target of another assassin hex" so you still can use it in hexbuilds.

Symbol · Apr 14, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Dismissing player skill as unimportant or "for FPSes" would imply that GW benefits from things which de-emphasize player skill, which in turn would make it more difficult for player skill to determine match outcomes.

WTF, "player skill unimportant" or for "fps"? Where....did...I...say...this? This is getting ridiculous. If you can't actually read and understand what I'm writing instead of creating absurd caricatures to tear down, then don't bother replying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

As far as "build wars" goes, you could compare builds to races in RTSes. They work differently, and they allow you to project your ability through something that is most compatible with your personal preferences. They should determine how you need to react, not determine whether or not you are capable of reacting.

That analogy falls over because builds are almost infinitely customizable by the player, and race design is set in stone by the game designers. Being able to gamble by building towards an opponent's perceived weaknesses is a fundamental part of game design-builds shouldn't just be aesthetic choices as you seem to imply.

The game only becomes "build wars" when one isn't able to design a build that can handle a wide variety of contingencies.

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I could buy a G15 and bind a key to F1-T-1-2-3-4-5-6-F2-C-Space, and farm fame with my eyes closed. If that's not brainless, I don't know what is.

Ridiculous. You are NOT going to win HA by spiking random targets. It does tell us something about your abilities, however, if you think the BoA was THAT strong.

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Dismissing player skill as unimportant or "for FPSes" would imply that GW benefits from things which de-emphasize player skill, which in turn would make it more difficult for player skill to determine match outcomes.

As far as "build wars" goes, you could compare builds to races in RTSes. They work differently, and they allow you to project your ability through something that is most compatible with your personal preferences. They should determine how you need to react, not determine whether or not you are capable of reacting.

In essence, build diversity allows skill to be separated from style, and allows players to spend less time fighting the game mechanics. "Build wars" does the opposite by overly punishing or rewarding players based on how they prefer to play rather than how well they play.

QFT, especially the part in bold. Builds need to be elements of style, manifestations of personal preference. Not determining factors. I really cannot express in words how much truth is packed into that post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

That analogy falls over because builds are almost infinitely customizable by the player, and race design is set in stone by the game designers. Being able to gamble by building towards an opponent's perceived weaknesses is a fundamental part of game design-builds shouldn't just be aesthetic choices as you seem to imply.

You are disagreeing with the most truthful part of the must truthful post that this forum has seen in a long time. Stop being beligerant and you might be lucky and learn from it. Races in RTS's typically have a very diverse selection of tactics available to them, so the way that they must be played is hardly set in stone. In an RTS every race can deal with any given situation, but must do so in a different way. Race selection is merely an exercise in style, preference, and comfort level with the available races.

For example, take Warcraft3:TFT, in its current patch. Human, Orc, Undead, and Elf are pretty excellently balanced compared to eachother, and each has unique elements which would make a player want to select it - but none is innately more powerful than any other. I myself choose Elf because I prefer their range and speed advantages, love the denial ability and beatdown power of the Demon Hunter (Hero), and am personally most comfortable with them. But by selecting Elf, I have no innate advantage over someone who picks, say, Human. We simply prefer different styles. When we face off, the game will still be decided by skill.

This is directly comparable to the role that builds should ideally play in Guild Wars. Perhaps you prefer to slant towards offense and melee beatdown. Perhaps you prefer to slant towards mobility and denial. All of these styles can and should come into play, but only as elements of style. Build should represent a preference about how to get the job done. It should never be involved in whether you can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

Ironically all these templates that you are talking about have been nerfed, can you ask yourself why Anet nerfed them if these templates need skillful players to run ? because it didn't..

Dead wrong. They were nerfed because of ArenaNet's faulty balance policy. Their tactic is simply to buff things that are used infrequently (they must be underpowered) and nerf things that are popular (they must be overpowered). This is a fairly retarded strategy. Skills should be balanced soley on how much player skill they require to use. Skills like Vow of Strength, Wanderlust, and Shadow Prison must be kept intentionally weak. Skills like Diversion, Bulls Strike, and Distracting Shot must be kept intentionally strong. If builds that require player skill are dominating the metagame, then we have reached balance nirvana. They shouldnt have screwed the whole thing up by nerfing those builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Ridiculous. You are NOT going to win HA by spiking random targets. It does tell us something about your abilities, however, if you think the BoA was THAT strong."

Please go look up "sarcasm" and "exaggeration" in the dictionary.

EDIT - Found the fundamental disagreement here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

The majority of skills in GW are unplayable as far as organized PvP goes. I'd consider that a far greater problem than "skill".

I suppose thats it then. If you really value diversity more than rewarding player skill, then you are truly lost. Diversity is a luxury. A passive desire. An afterthought. Rewarding player skill is, or should be, the core of every serious competitive game.

Riotgear · Apr 14, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

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Originally Posted by Symbol

WTF, "player skill unimportant" or for "fps"? Where....did...I...say...this? This is getting ridiculous.

Post #76.

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The game only becomes "build wars" when one isn't able to design a build that can handle a wide variety of contingencies.

It works in reverse as well, such as when Blinding Surge was making melee practically unplayable.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Ridiculous. You are NOT going to win HA by spiking random targets.

Random? Please read the key sequence again.

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Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

I would love to see you try that. Somehow I have the feeling that you won't get far.

While I was exaggerating, I'm not sure there was much else I did while I was on a cheap fame run from SH+Assassinway not too long ago. :P

Nor does that change the point, which is that SP is, in fact, brainless.

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In GvG the BoA-assassin isn't a real problem at all.

Did anyone say they were?

EDIT --

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The majority of skills in GW are unplayable as far as organized PvP goes. I'd consider that a far greater problem than "skill".

Many of those skills are crap that are designed to fill the same role (i.e. Sundering Shot and Power Shot). Many of those skills are poorly-designed and awful (i.e. Discord). Many of those skills don't have a context to be useful (i.e. Keystone Signet). Many of those skills are not designed for organized PvP, but less-organized contexts and PvE to ease the understanding of the game (i.e. Backfire).

However, if they added 50 skills tomorrow which were utterly useless, it would not make the game any better or worse. Skills which aren't used are, by definition, not causing any problems. What matters is how many options ARE available.

DutchSmurf · Apr 14, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Nor does that change the point, which is that SP is, in fact, brainless.

How is SP more brainless then skills like Ether Prodigy/Heal Party, Rush (and any other speedboost), Apply Poison, Cripshot, Gale, ect, ect, ect, ect. There are some skills that require skill to use it seems. Interrupts are the easiest to notice. Monks are an example too. According to you 90% of the skills in GW don't take any skill to use.
So really, what makes SP brainless? Because it is a teleport+slowdown? Is a teleport alone brainless too? What about slowdowns? Or is it the combination? Is Conjure Flame more brainless then Kindle Arrows? Is Gale more or less brainless then Shock? Is Backbreaker+Crushing+random hammer attack more or less brainless then SP+chain?

Thomas.knbk · Apr 14, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Post #76.

I don't wanna get in this fight or anything but I think you misunderstood that.

Symbol · Apr 14, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Post #76.

Learn to read. Nowhere in that post did I claim that skill was"unimportant" or "for fps"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It works in reverse as well, such as when Blinding Surge was making melee practically unplayable.

Sure, because ridiculous hard counters like pre-nerf blinding surge are a symptom of lazy game design and lead to "build wars".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

However, if they added 50 skills tomorrow which were utterly useless, it would not make the game any better or worse. Skills which aren't used are, by definition, not causing any problems. What matters is how many options ARE available.

Yes, which is why complaining about whether they take skill is really completely pointless. By and large the skills that DO get used are those that aren't mindless, because they get more powerful as the player gets better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

You are disagreeing with the most truthful part of the must truthful post that this forum has seen in a long time. Stop being beligerant and you might be lucky and learn from it. Races in RTS's typically have a very diverse selection of tactics available to them, so the way that they must be played is hardly set in stone. In an RTS every race can deal with any given situation, but must do so in a different way. Race selection is merely an exercise in style, preference, and comfort level with the available races.

That's fantastic and all but GW isn't an RTS. Having the choice of playing a risky specialized build (aka gimmick) that can exploit an opponent's weaknesses is a fundamental part of the game. Build advantage is a fundamental game mechanic. Skill should come first so one should rarely if ever be at an unsurmountable disadvantage (aka balanced builds should have the tools to handle everything), but builds need to be able to have material impact simply to allow the sorts of out of match strategizing and mind games that you would remove entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I suppose thats it then. If you really value diversity more than rewarding player skill, then you are truly lost. Diversity is a luxury. A passive desire. An afterthought. Rewarding player skill is, or should be, the core of every serious competitive game.

Do you seriously not understand that if a skill is unplayably bad then any pissing and moaning about whether it requires skill to use is completely and utterly moot? I shouldn't have to explain this to you.