Curse

The Ernada · Apr 12, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

The BoA nerf hardly did anything to SP assassins. Definately need to adjust the minimums on the other IAS stances. Or just nerf SP some more like Riotgear mentioned.

Zuranthium · Apr 12, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Those kind of builds do not deserve to be good enough to be playable, so suggesting Shadow Prison needs to be buffed to compensate for the BSS nerf is ridiculous. Any change that would make assasin spikers more powerful is categorically moronic.

You people overrate the BoA Assassins. *roll eyes*. With IAS out of the picture (other IAS skills will get needed nerfs if it's still a "problem"), a 15 second Shadow Prison is definitely needed to keep the skill useful. Right now, however, I'm more interested in testing a Locust's Fury + CONJURE Assassin. Hello DPS.

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 12, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I dont know how it is possible to miss the point of my posts so many consecutive times. So here it is again, plain and simple:

Competitive games need to be balanced based primarily on rewarding player skill.

This game is not currently balanced that way, but I do not advocate intentionally not using "skill-less" spells based soley on this characteristic. Play to win. However, this is a thread about the skill changes that were made, and the skill changes that we believe should come. So here I can get up on my soapbox and preach about how Guild Wars should be. Anyways:

- Assasin spikers do not reward player skill.

- Shadow stepping not only fails to reward player skill, but in fact does exactly the opposite and eliminates several facets of the game that do .

From this it is very easy to see that Shadow Prison needs to be brutally nerfed until it is unplayable. Shadow Prison doesnt deserve to be 'kept viable'.

Quote:

Right now, however, I'm more interested in testing a Locust's Fury + CONJURE Assassin. Hello DPS

If I had it my way, neither of those skills would be playable either. Set and forget enchantments dont reward player skill. Perhaps you're beginning to sense a theme here.

Thom Bangalter · Apr 12, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Neo: e-babies plz?

The Ernada · Apr 12, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You people overrate the BoA Assassins. *roll eyes*. With IAS out of the picture (other IAS skills will get needed nerfs if it's still a "problem"), a 15 second Shadow Prison is definitely needed to keep the skill useful. Right now, however, I'm more interested in testing a Locust's Fury + CONJURE Assassin. Hello DPS.

~Z

SP isnt useful now? It's the freaking easy button to getting a one man spike and you want a buff on it?

Alex the Great · Apr 12, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I had a joygasm when I saw they fixed mending touch. I would've preferred the condi removal to scale for your spec in prot as it is still superior on a ranger than it is on a monk, but whatever. At least the bastards will stay blind.

oi.....I may be made a blind bastard but dont touch my Burning arrow or "The Frog" gets it in the head

and I mean it too

lacasner · Apr 13, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

*Waits for huge awesome test weekend in order to give Anet a chance to restore build diversity and build creativity to PvP*

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 13, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

*Waits for huge awesome test weekend in order to give Anet a chance to restore build diversity and build creativity to PvP*

So... how are you enjoying your stay, here in your very first week on the planet?

Ensign · Apr 13, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The problem I've found with running Deep Freeze is that Frozen Burst does so many of the same things I want to do. The AoE snare effect is nice, but in practice I'm usually paying 10 extra energy for the additional range (which is offset by the 3s cast time.)

That lets you put down AoE snare in two locations, yours and wherever you aim, ala your midline and theirs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Where Shackles really shines is when the opposing team is taking pressure and has to fall back.

Nah, that's where Deep Freeze -> chained Frozen Burst really shines. Single target snares are of course solid when someone's trying to retreat, but I wouldn't say Icy Shackles is anything spectacular in that role.

Peace,
-CxE

Zuranthium · Apr 13, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

SP isnt useful now? It's the freaking easy button to getting a one man spike and you want a buff on it?

We've been here before, but, it's a very easily disruptable skill bar. SP is still useful, sure, just not WORTH IT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

- Shadow stepping not only fails to reward player skill, but in fact does exactly the opposite and eliminates several facets of the game that do .

Shadow stepping fails to rewards player skill? Wow, tell that to EVIL. You're simplifying the entire idea. It's not just "click a button and auto-spike". Timing has a lot to do with it. If teleports "Nullify" character positioning, then they REWARD player reaction abilities. One door opens as another closes. The very fact that the option is there, however, ADDS a facet to the game. It most certainly does not take away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If I had it my way, neither of those skills would be playable either. Set and forget enchantments dont reward player skill. Perhaps you're beginning to sense a theme here.

Yeah...those are 2 skills on the character's bar. I guess you can't think of anything interesting to do with the other 5/6. Too bad.

I really do not like your viewpoint. It is so limiting. Your argument is also fairly weak, as you're arguing that ANY long-term enchantment should suck because it doesn't require much skill to use. Every single skill in the game doesn't to be drowning with complexity.

~Z

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 13, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Long-duration enchantments aren't necessarily bad for the game, so long as they allow you to do something more with the rest of your bar. The classic example is Divine Boon. You can't really make any interesting plays with Boon on its own, but you can combine it with all kinds of other effects to get quick heals on an attractive recharge and heal + prot in a single cast.

A warrior with Conjure up is more of a threat than a warrior without Conjure. The Conjure warrior requires more shutdown and has a much easier time setting up kills without support. Multiple conjure warriors running around solo-spiking people is a great pressure threat. Is that 150 damage a lead-in to an adrenal combo, or was it just a random prot strike? Should I prot the guy? What should I prot him with? Forcing the enemy monks to answer these kinds of questions rapidly is a great way to force them into mistakes.

Conjure also has its drawbacks, though again, they're not necessarily obvious. It eats one of your utility slots (which means a lot for a warrior) and consumes a lot of your energy. Furthermore, you're pretty much forced to use elemental weaponry all day, which keeps you from regenning energy with Zealous. At the same time, Conjure gets the most mileage out of fast-attack skills like Protector's Strike, and those skills are notorious energy hogs. This forces you to play in pushes, since constant spamming of skills will leave your energy bar at a permanent low.

Is Conjure good for the game? The meta is in flux and right now, it's difficult to say. However, I wouldn't write it off as a skill-less gimmick out of hand. While it may not be as obvious as an Eviscerate to the face, good players will utilize the damage much more effectively than bad ones.

Riotgear · Apr 13, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadow stepping fails to rewards player skill? Wow, tell that to EVIL.

Competitive teams run things based on how effective they are, not how much skill is required to use them.

Quote:

Timing has a lot to do with it. If teleports "Nullify" character positioning, then they REWARD player reaction abilities.

Better reaction ability increases your ability to counter ANYTHING. Saying that something is fine because it tests reaction time is about the second-most-meaningless argument for a balance change right behind "it gets owned by Diversion!"

Putting additional strain on reaction times should require more work, not just dropping SP on your bar for EZ-Spike.

EDIT -- Conjure as a meta seems sketchy. It would probably make enchantment removal (specifically Corrupt, Grenth or Rending Touch) more popular, as it would provide a way to both own the enemy team's damage output AND take down prot. Conjure's cooldown is nasty, removing it or especially D-shotting it would hurt bad.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 13, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

The biggest issue I have with Conjure is that it usually ends up taking the slot of my heal sig. I miss that a lot. Who cares if you have 50 dmg auto attacks though.
In theory it's also bad because the enemy monks will swap to a +10AL vs. your element type of shield. In reality it hardly matters though.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 13, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

In theory it's also bad because the enemy monks will swap to a +10AL vs. your element type of shield. In reality it hardly matters though.

If you're running multiple conjures they obviously need to be seperate elements, which reduces the effectiveness of this tactic. I suppose it's possible for enemy casters to switch to the appropriate shield based on which warrior/paragon/ranger is on them, but I have yet to meet a team with the micro to do that. Not saying it's impossible, just that I haven't seen it yet.

Riotgear · Apr 13, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

In theory it's also bad because the enemy monks will swap to a +10AL vs. your element type of shield.

You could kind of do that before, just by seeing which shield reduces the autocrits the most.

red orc · Apr 13, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

long enhanc can make the game more interesting. If allow you to use counters more effectvly. You can use the foe enhance to set up a spike, to regain enrgy, to degen, etc...
Lets take the conjure that someone complained before he's loosing his health sig for and counter it with the not so popular 'Envenom Enchantments', in relation to a degen nacro. Now you just made the conjure into a liability. You also have more posibilities as to when to use enhanc counters and to what perpose. Will you remove long term enhanc for a long term advantage or are you going to remove a short term one for immidiate result.

The Ernada · Apr 13, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

We've been here before, but, it's a very easily disruptable skill bar. SP is still useful, sure, just not WORTH IT.

Not worth porting to your target and making him a sitting duck without the hassle of haivng to chase your target and negating any kiting the target will do?

And you can't handle the current 20 second recharge? It already takes out a lot of skill needed in melee and you want more room for error by lowering the recharge?

ayame ftw · Apr 13, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

im not pleased by the nerf to BoA, sins are made for spiking, its was the only 5e speed booster.
and if anet wants to see people use other sin builds, they should make the other skills more useful. If u look at all the possible combinations of lead-offhand-dual u don’t have a lot of choices that give a effective result.
Shadow prison build if u want to port and kill and there is no real reason to get out fast
Or
the Aura of displacement build to retreat fast.
Then u have some other build that relay on caster shutdown with ether a hex or daze
And that’s it! U cant do anything else with sin’s in PvP.

I’m still really surprised that there is no attack speed booster in the sin line...every melee class has a speed boost (paragon, ranger, warrior, dervish)

If anet wants to nerf the spike capability of sins, that’s fine by me… if they remove kill count. People just use sins a lot these days to ‘steal” kills on kill count maps. So basically no kill count = less (no) sins

DutchSmurf · Apr 13, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

I’m still really surprised that there is no attack speed booster in the sin line...every melee class has a speed boost (paragon, ranger, warrior, dervish)

You can argue that their double strikes are some kind of attack speed boost.

Riotgear · Apr 13, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

and if anet wants to see people use other sin builds, they should make the other skills more useful.

Other possibilities (LF+Conjure, BH, Moebius+DB) already exist.

Quote:

So basically no kill count = less (no) sins

Building a class to be able to able to dish out brainless spikes and not do much else is bad design. Bad design does not need to be entertained, it needs to be buried and replaced with something better.

Kill count is also a broken mechanic, so please leave it to a separate argument. Nobody here likes it.