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Apr 19, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36
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#1 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Forgot the Ghostlyyyyy [ftl]
Profession: Mo/N
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HA Mechanics - The community fixing HA
I think its time the HA community opened a discussion about the mechanics of HA and how it effects the state of the game as a whole and rather than post in old threads full of cries and whines I’ve decided to open a new thread to begin real debate and discussion instead of all this mindless trash. I'm hoping one or two of the moderators will see this thread for what i want it to be and edit/delete all the trash out of it.
The goal of this thread is to make HA healthy again I don’t believe there is a thread in this section that is open and actively discussing our needs adequately, I want a thread here that gives everyone a chance to express what they want, why and how Anet can make changes to the mechanics that will improve the game for us. Now what I really don’t want is people to say remove mechanic X and all will be fixed I want to know why it should be removed, how to modify and why your changes are better. I know many people have written some really nice posts in this section in many many threads, which are now locked because of the snowball effect of whines and flames of frustrated players. I really want those people to post those ideas and put them here in what I hope becomes a very active quality thread because quite frankly nobody wants to listen to endless whines nobody takes them seriously and it doesnt help. I believe an active HA is good for the game its an active breeding ground for forming new guilds many of which go on to be active in both HA and GvG. It gets new players noticed by more experienced players because its an arena that is easy to form PuG groups more so than any other arena in the game. This is how I met my current guildies and I’m sure if you ask around most competitive guilds formed in similar ways. A healthy HA is good for the game as a whole so lets try to give Anet good ideas to fix it and hopefully they might listen. Rules of the thread No crying, whining or taking over the thread with crap you state your opinion, give your reasons and get your point across as best as you can I do not want 2 or 3 people taking over a thread and arguing their points over and over it gets us nowhere hijacks threads and prevents reasonable debate and discussion. A lot of the current threads in this section are like this. ------------------------ My Opinions We all know that HA is broken at the moment mainly because of new mechanics that were introduced mainly Kill count, which is by far the worst. Kill Count – I see what Anet were thinking on its introduction they believed it would stop teams being overly defensive and stop degenerate holding builds from winning Hall of Heroes as much. However what has happened is the opposite far from balancing things out builds are more limited than ever before there are less build choices and ganking, spike and nuke-way is the build style of choice this mechanic makes the arena less about skill and far more about luck. Its very easy to lose when two teams gank you and there is nothing you can do about it this is not about skill at all its random and frustrating. The worst part of the mechanic is a dumb idiot who likes to run to the spot where he last died on respawn, he’s also slower to kite than anybody on your team and happily will draw his bow and attack a spirit/enemy despite the fact you ran away and he should be following you. Did I mention he’s worth 2-4 points when he dies? At the very least make the Ghostly Hero stand on the respawn Altar instead of running around. I don’t know how to fix this mechanic I think it is impossible better off having an extra 1v1 map or some kind of HoH based mechanic in Broken and courtyard instead. King of the Hill – Most people seem to think this mechanic is fine however I think it is fatally flawed. Why you ask? Well watch King of the Hill matches on observer and notice most teams will resign and give up with 2 minutes remaining on the clock? Effectively giving the holding team a free win, If a team resigns with 2 minutes to go there is little chance for the other team to overtake the current holding team in this mechanic this is a big flaw. The current points system means teams can’t win so rather than waste time they just resign and go back in again its because of this flawed points system I’ve seen both opposing teams resign with 4 minutes still left on the clock, wow what a great HoH match that was?. The old altar system was more exciting because you had a chance to win right until the last seconds of the match (if your ghost was alive) these really are the epic games everyone wants to be part of you really feel you earned those victories. We need game mechanics that give people a chance to win for as long as possible and that’s why I suggest we make King of the Hill a scaling points system. The system stays as it is with teams getting a point every 30 seconds they hold but the points system changes obeying the following rules: The match is 8 minutes long the team that holds the Altar for the longest period of time during the match gets 1 bonus point. Maybe some kind of clock for each team should show for how long each have held the Altar. Minutes 8-3 a team gets 1 points for holding the Altar at set 30 second periods of time. 9 points total available during this period. Minutes 3-1 a team gets 2 points for holding the Altar at set 30 second periods of time. 8 points total available during this period. Minutes 1-0 a team gets 3 points for holding the Altar at set 30 second periods of time. 9 points total available during this period. This fix should mean that everyone plays on for longer in these matches giving holding builds a much harder time in winning than the current system. Relic runs – In 1v1 relic runs are fine as they are we just need a few map bug fixes such as the 2 man body block in sacred. HoH Relic I think is fine it’s the best mechanic in HoH itself at present although I do think the first team to cap the last relic in HoH should be the winner the slowest team should not win a 15-15-15 match they were the slowest. The only problems with HoH relic is when a team decides they cant win and gank you. I even witnessed a SF spike make little to no effort in one of these matches on observer and then shamelessly gank the yellow team who were just about beating Consume Chicken at the time in a close match. Capture points – All kinds of weird things go on here luck again becomes a big factor in who wins and who doesn’t a big problem is this style of PvP is only available in factions with alliance battles and of course hero battles. The fact that there is very little practice for this mechanic in the current maps in HA is a big issue, many people get to HoH and are unsure what they need to do tactically to win and can lead to some teams spoiling the match for one of the other teams. Making Broken tower a capture point map may help but in reality I think capture points are best left out of HA and a different mechanic added. Capture points really are not so much about player skill especially when the 3rd place team decides its smart to take the 2nd place teams cap points those matches tend to give the current leading team a huge advantage as the other two teams fight each other over a few points while the leading team happily racks up points with there current Altars. 1v1 matches – No changes are required its fair to all build styles just needs the odd bug fix for map issues and everyone is happy. In fact arguably it wouldn’t be the worst idea to make every single HA map a straight 1v1, less luck, bugs, and stupid mechanics will be involved and we will know for sure that the current holding team earned victory. Skill balance updates - Seriously this is the biggest reason the game is in decline the lack of skill rebalances and bug fixes to skills really stagnates the meta a lot. Soul Reaping abuse has been around forever, many skills have been left overpowered for months at a time with no changes and worse still 100’s of skills remain useless and unused because they are simply too limited and inferior. I really hope Anet do regular balance updates every few weeks in the future. ------------------------ In the end what I am looking for is ideas from the community to balance out mechanics so that, All Build styles be they Conditions, Hexes, Interrupts, Energy denial, AoE, Spike, Melee Pressure all have reasonable chances to win in each mechanic with no mechanic specifically favouring one or the other too heavily, I don’t want the mechanics dictating the meta too much. Variable mechanics we must have 2-4 variable mechanics so that nobody is able to readily abuse the mechanics of matches in order to hold Hall of Heroes I think Anet are correct in having a rotating system in HoH. Skill>Build pure holding builds need to be a thing of the past. |
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Apr 19, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14
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#2 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
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Totally agree with above post except for one thing. I think the point value of holding should go from 8-5min 1 point, 5-3 2 points, 3-1 3 points, and the last minutes should worth 4 points and last 30 seconds is 5 points. This will usually make the team holding last wins the match but obviously with some exceptions.
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Apr 19, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51
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#3 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: W/E
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Kill count should be removed from HA for the following reasons. Many players dont like it, also it promotes aoe and spikes giving balanced teams really sort of no chance. Furthermore it limits the amount of builds you can play, for example you cannot play heavy hex now or shall i say you can, but you wont get far. This cause problems because not only does it ruin the balanced triangle of HA because for example, spikes hate heavy hex. But it forces players to play a certain section of builds which players dont like. They like free will, being able to make and run a build or use any build they desire and succed.
Capture points and kill count also dont promote much skill. You spend about 4 mins running around 2 minutes fighting. Its really quite boaring, its nothing like how HA was in the past where you could have thrilling macthes right up to the last minute and enjoy every minute of it, throwing in skill and tatics everywhere. For this reason do i say that bring back alter capping, it was effective, it worked, it kept the builds played in check and gave everyone a chance promoting skill. People have complaind i hear about holding builds, but as you are aware all holding builds where beatable. It just required and immence amount of skill and the right stuff for the job just like if you dont have loads of hex removal to fight a heavy hex team you lose. Everyone enjoyed alter maps and it was an enjoyable way to play for no macth was never the same. The adrenline rush of trying to keep the hero up or saying you do this, you do this knowing that each little thing your team mates where doing was contributing to your victory. I could go on and on about why kill counts not as good, or why alters better, and go very deep but for the sake of time i wont and as im sure they will be mentioned later on i think it wont be nessercary. Anyway being that anet want feedback. Not handing out the best suggestions but im trying. What about this to spice up HA like add a map like this: But interms of productiveity i believe alter capping would definately be the way to go. could be things like you have to fix a catapult and use it to kill the enermy hero or something. Like have to huge catapults on either side of the map and you have to run like say 3 repair kits to fix it. And first one to shoot it and destroy the enermy Ghost wins, anyone of your team in that area as well or range at which the bomb falls could die (sort of like a teaser if you understand me). Itll motivate people to get out of the area when their about to win so that they dont get a dp. Also you can say in order to activate it you have to get a chain which can only be carried by two players. Well its just an idea due to the fact so many people are complaining about old maps, might be something that could be added in a rotation if taken seriously. You never know it might work, what do you guys think. But basically what i am trying to highlight is that anet should look at the extream. New inventive ideas (extreme) if they want to spice up HA although im all for the old HA. But in doing so they should also keep the old ones like alter cap. What do you guys think? Last edited by Death_From_Above; Apr 19, 2007 at 06:04 PM // 18:04.. |
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Apr 19, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56
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#4 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Tomb Refugees [ToRe]
Profession: Mo/Me
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Quote:
King of the Hill and old school altar capping both frequently eliminated teams at or around the 2:00 mark; the former by getting so far ahead of the other teams in points and the latter by just spiking out the enemy ghostly at 1:59. IMO, they could consider bringing the old altar capping mechanics back... ghosts could spawn every minute on the minute on the altar (since it would be pretty stupid to have them spawn at 1:00 when it could take a good 30 seconds to get his ass back on the altar). This would keep teams in the match until the end and eliminate the need to go back and get the ghost, which invariably relieves the holding team of at least a little of the pressure that would otherwise be applied if they were actively fighting for the altar. Holding shouldn't be a walk in the park; but I agree that eliminating both teams with substantial time left on the clock should be avoided wherever possible. EDIT: Really though, the problem with old-school holding wasn't the fact that it promoted defensive builds per se, it was the fact that your build only really had to be designed to take pressure from your enemies for the last two minutes of the map (since everyone would just stand around until then). The elimination of DP might change things here; since teams trying to uproot a holding build now don't have any reason to wait around for three quarters of the match. Most (sane) people would probably still avoid capping until they absolutely had to, but that's just how it goes. Maybe old-school holding without DP is worth a shot. Last edited by Nadia Roark; Apr 19, 2007 at 06:03 PM // 18:03.. |
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Apr 19, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39
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#5 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Pwn Appetit [NJoy]
Profession: W/
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I think a better solution to rotating objectives is instead MULITPLE objectives, this would give teams different options to score points and they could persue the option that favors their build most.
My suggestion is to make all Altar maps have the same multiple objectives. Objective 1) Altar Capping: This would be the old style altar capping mechanic. You would need to take your ghost to the altar, he performs the claim resource skill and upon completing the skill he claims the altar. REWARD 5 Points Objective 2) Altar Holding: Every minute that your team controls the altar you have completed 1 successful hold. REWARD 1 point Objective 3) Kill Count: Whenever a DEATH occurs on a member of your party BOTH opposing teams are rewarded 1 point. What this fixes are a number of things : 1) No kill stealing (wether or not this exists is still a mystery to me, but this would eliminate kill steals) 2) Spike/vs Pressure, this method allows all forms of builds equal opportunity as degening a team, e-denial, DPS, spike, it doesnt matter if an opponent suffers a death points are awarded to both teams (in a 3 way map) this mechanic would still function in a 1v1 situation as well. 3) Farming weak teams. This method does not reward both teams farming a weaker team for points, creating a "race" to kill the weaker team faster. This will prevent EARLY ganking however later in the map teams can decide to gank depending on the situation (and unfortunately teams could decide to gank just to spoil the win for a certain team, this is tough to prevent) Using all 3 objectives above it will force teams to fight by the altar in order to get that capping bonus. It will put pressure on a winning team to not let an opponent cap, it puts pressure on teams that are tied to go after each other because they wont break the tie by killing the weaker team. Which leads to the tiebreaker mechanic. Tie Breaker: When 2 teams are tied with the most points at the end of the timer, the team that is not tied gets sent back to HA. The 1v1 that follows will be in 1 min. intervals until one team is victorious. When 3 teams are tied for the most points. It goes into a quick sudden death mode, where the first team to suffer a casualty is booted from the map and sent back to HA. The 2 remaining teams then duke it out for 1 min. intervals. By allowing teams multipe ways to score points, teams can make tactical decisions to increase their chances of winning. The capping bonus will allow alot of last minute wins if a team manages to make an "epic" last second cap. And I can picture some pretty intense battles. |
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Apr 19, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55
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#6 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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My thoughts and suggestions
1) Replace Broken Tower Kill Count with Capture points system - each surrounding rez shrine awards 1 point every 30 seconds - teams rez at their rez shrine every 1 minute - center shrine awards 3 points every 60 (30) seconds - if scores are equal at the end of the match team holding the center wins - if noone holds the center team with most capture points wins - if noone holds center and teams have equal amount of points team who scored the last kill wins. 2) Replace Courtyard Kill Count with King of the Hill system - each team has a rez shrine with a priest who rezzes fallen party members every 1min - teams must capture the center altar with their ghostly hero - every 30 seconds you get 1 point for holding the altar - if scores are equal at the end of the game team holding the altar wins - if noone holds the altar team with most points wins - if noones holds altar and scores are all equal team with most kills wins - if kill count is equal, last kill wins. (kill counter needs to be present) 3) HOH Capture points (the map layout of HOH makes this mode not reach its full potential, like in alliance battles where the map is so large that it is easy to sneak around and capture various points without being seen. The HOH map just isnt right for capture points for that reason AND it does not have multiple routes to the points. So trying to achieve the alliance battle style capture point system just wont work.) Instead i think it would be better to focus the capping around the central altar, which runs in line with the whole objective of winning the favour of the Gods. Each team will spawn with a point capped and then make its way to the center... they can all make the following decisions i) try to hold the center altar ii) try to split off and cap the surrounding altars - surrounding shrines award 1 point every 30 seconds - center shrine awards 2 points every 60 seconds (or 30) - if scores are equal team holding center shrine wins - if noone holds center, team with most shrines captured wins - if teams have equal number of points, team with the most kills wins - if kill count is the same, team with the last kill wins. (kill counter needs to be present) the biggest difference with this is that there will be increased attention to the center altar. Murder Ball - only problem with this map is situations where all teams have the equal scores and the outcome of the match is decided on who caps last. Which basically means the rest of the match is pointless if 3 decent teams are fighting. Only time when any team can clearly win by 2+ relics is if one or two of the teams in the fight have very little snares and are bad at body blocking and have no speedboosts. But fortunately most teams who reach HOH have these utilities. - It is a fun and relaxing map to fight on until the last 1-20 seconds when it gets very hectic and panicky. - not sure what can be done to prevent this rush. - i think this mode is necessary, to add to the diversity in the HA map rotation. King of the Hill - i see nothing wrong with this map, people just need more practice on it on the most part. Interrupts are key to winning this. |
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Apr 19, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26
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#7 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Tomb Refugees [ToRe]
Profession: Mo/Me
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One thing though that irritates me about cap points (and I think I like the idea of splitting up the Broken/Courtyard map objectives) is that there is currently no provision in the HUD that shows which teams control how many (and if so, which) points on the map. Part of the reason why I hate HoH capture points--besides the reasons you already mentioned--is that it's impossible for me to know who has capped what points; or if they're in the process of capping, how close they are to controlling it.
If you're going to insist on putting AB-style altar caps in HoH (-_-), please keep all the capture point status bars on our HUD, even if no one controls them. This way the team can react to caps as they're happening, rather than having to wait 30-60 seconds to guess who owns what based on how fast their scores are increasing. |
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Apr 19, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19
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#8 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
press 'U' =) |
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Apr 19, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23
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#9 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wales
Guild: Steel Phoenix
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Agree with pretty much all those points, more 1v1 maps is the way to go.
I'd also like to see DP added back into halls. |
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Apr 20, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50
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#10 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: none atm.. (formal [mini] guild)
Profession: W/E
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definitly agreed with dif system on broken tower and courtyard. 2 kill counts is just boring imo...
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Apr 20, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22
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#11 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Tomb Refugees [ToRe]
Profession: Mo/Me
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Quote:
I guess it's not really a big deal, but it seems like something of an oversight to me. |
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Apr 20, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30
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#12 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Another suggestion that can be brought into killcount is the holder of altar recieves a point every 30 seconds and the timer is reduced. I like the idea of the capture point game mode but sadly it is not working. A possible fix is making teams ressurect every 2 minutes instead of 1 minute to promote splits and offensive tactics instead of "cap center altar and hold ours" idea.
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Apr 20, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40
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#13 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Tomb Refugees [ToRe]
Profession: Mo/Me
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I still tend to the viewpoint that AB caps should be left in AB. HoH wasn't designed for that kind of game mode and barring a radical map overhaul it never will be. Cap points in HoH (with only one avenue to each point, as Lorekeeper mentioned) are just pointless and it's a waste of everyone's time.
In a wierd sort of way I hate it even more than kill count, because at least kill count originated in HA and was designed to shake things up for HA. Cap points just seems to me like ANet ran out of ideas for new victory conditions and just decided to inject random portions of other PvP formats into it. I mean, what's next? A (morale earning) Flag Stand on Dark Chambers? Please. If I want to play cap points, I'll go do some AB--and there's a reason why I don't. |
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Apr 20, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00
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#14 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I'd rather the AB joke be removed from halls. I don't expect Anet to make such a drastic change in anything less than a year. So I offer my suggestions on how to improve the current AB game mode in halls to make it more playable than in its current form.
Last edited by Living Parasite; Apr 20, 2007 at 04:03 AM // 04:03.. |
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Apr 23, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42
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#15 | ||
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Forgot the Ghostlyyyyy [ftl]
Profession: Mo/N
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Quote:
I definatly agree we need to have DP back it was one way to kick a holding team over long periods of time in HoH especially if both opposing teams knew what to do vs those builds. The combination of ressing on the altar + res sigs and even hard res can make it tricky to beat some teams at times DP really helps us out in that situation. Quote:
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Apr 23, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37
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#16 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
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There is an alter in Eternal Grove? I never knew that. I also agree with DP reinstated back to Halls. Taking out DP is like taking out half of the purpose of a pressure team. However, I don't think Halls should ever be 1v1. That will cause one team to hold it easily given that it will be turned back into a holding map. 3 team holding would be perfect since it allows two teams to work together and gank blue, and then fight each other. 4 or 5 teams in Halls would be too much since it'll turn Halls holding into a complete madness party.
All in all, I think deleting Kill counts will come first in priority. Altho I think that it wouldn't happen because i asked Gaile in game and she said that Devs are looking into it but she likes it and don't see the faults in it. which I think we all know what that means. |
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Apr 23, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54
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#17 | ||
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Forgot the Ghostlyyyyy [ftl]
Profession: Mo/N
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Quote:
Quote:
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Apr 23, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19
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#18 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Maguuma Stade
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Quote:
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Apr 23, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49
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#19 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Forgot the Ghostlyyyyy [ftl]
Profession: Mo/N
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Quote:
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Apr 24, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27
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#20 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
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If you enclosed the 2 team in the middle area of Halls. Wouldn't it give pressure builds an advantage? because there is no way to recover a bit by kiting as a team. It would also favor teams with heavy aoe since good teams will corner the other team.
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