Curse

yeah_hi · Feb 21, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask; I wasn't sure.

I'm not much of a PvP-er. I don't dislike it, I just haven't got into it (yet) - it seems quite daunting.

This weekend my alliance is having an AB event (it's more of a 'turn up, dive in' event than a co-ordinated team build event), so I made my way to Guildwiki to have a look at individual AB builds. There are so many there, I got a bit overwhelmed with the choices, so was wondering:

In your opinion, is there a build that's pretty easy to master if you're a complete beginner? I can roll pretty much anything. Things like weapon swaps/energy hiding (are they even used in AB?) are all a bit foreign to me right now, so anything that's relatively easy to pick up and run with would be great. I'd like to be at least some use to the team that's unfortunate enough to be lumbered with me.

Any advice appreciated - even if it's just things to avoid (mending W/Mo yay!) - thanks.

erk · Feb 21, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeah_hi

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask; I wasn't sure.

I'm not much of a PvP-er. I don't dislike it, I just haven't got into it (yet) - it seems quite daunting.

This weekend my alliance is having an AB event (it's more of a 'turn up, dive in' event than a co-ordinated team build event), so I made my way to Guildwiki to have a look at individual AB builds. There are so many there, I got a bit overwhelmed with the choices, so was wondering:

In your opinion, is there a build that's pretty easy to master if you're a complete beginner? I can roll pretty much anything. Things like weapon swaps/energy hiding (are they even used in AB?) are all a bit foreign to me right now, so anything that's relatively easy to pick up and run with would be great. I'd like to be at least some use to the team that's unfortunate enough to be lumbered with me.

Any advice appreciated - even if it's just things to avoid (mending W/Mo yay!) - thanks.

There are no "great" builds, you will find they all have counters. So ultimately it will come down to tweaking the character you most prefer playing to suit AB. I don't have much faith in the Wiki AB builds most are only 75% complete. The first thing you have to remember is that AB is about capping shrines, not fighting other players, so there are very specific NPC enemies you will encounter all the time. Domination Mesmers, Curses Necros, Bow Rangers, Warriors, Air Elementalists, and Monks. You have to be able to deal with most of these or be sure you are always in a party that can. A running skill is handy, res sig. is a waste of space. If you are playing properly there will be little time spent fighting other players. For starters bring a hex removal skill, unless you are lucky enough to be in a party with a monk, until you learn what they chuck at you, then you can free up that slot as you develop better tactics,

The first thing you need to do is learn the 5 maps, where everything is, the NPC types that are on the 7 shrines, as the shrine names mostly do not relate to the NPC type on them.

I run a Ranger/W, Ele, Necro, Warrior with a couple of build options for each so when I am in a guild party I just ask what should I bring. If I am in PUG I just use the Ele or Necro because the fighter classes need more healing.

One thing to remember is don't build a tank. There are no points to be gained by standing still and taking a battering when you should be running around capping shrines to win. Dolyak sig is right out!

And if you are a team leader, don't forget to call targets!!

Blame the Monks · Feb 22, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Some tips:

- Build to kill other players, not NPCs. Sure, fire eles are great at blowing up NPCs. But they suck at fighting the short term small scale battles of AB, and anyone can kill an NPC. Run a build that can do what needs doing -- killing other small teams to take and defend cap points.

- Kill quickly, move quickly. Don't waste time trying to degen people out or apply pressure. You want to drop targets quickly or move on. Burst asses, rits, mesmers, anything that can frontload damage and win decisively- and quickly work well.

- Don't run monks (imo). You are better off with four offensive players, minor self heals, effective shutdown, and deadly offense. You shouldn't be standing in one place fighting for the extended time where a monk matters (30 seconds or more) that often anyhow. Its also handy if you can bring your own hex/condition removal as needed.

- Bring interrupts, speed boosts, and snares. Speed boosts to quickly get where you want to go and overtake the enemy, snares to ensure kills (or to deter that annoying stance wammo from following you around), and interrupts to shutdown key attacks and heals.

The other day my guild ran this combo and it just destroyed people:

1. burst ass
2. burst ass
3. MoR mesmer with warmonger, shatter chant, preturn, etc
4. burning ranger

Everyone had a self heal, the team had a crapload of interrupts, and was pretty mobile.

Builds that work well:

Burst asses
Axe Warriors
Burning arrow rangers
Dom mesmers
Imba rits
dervs

Builds that don't work that well:

healing rits
paragons
anything that relies on degen

Builds that are grossly overrated:

monks
MM
hex spammers
touchers

P.S. But final point -- don't stress it too much. AB is as laid back as it gets, so just play how you enjoy.

erk · Feb 22, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Some tips:

- Build to kill other players, not NPCs. Sure, fire eles are great at blowing up NPCs. But they suck at fighting the short term small scale battles of AB, and anyone can kill an NPC. Run a build that can do what needs doing -- killing other small teams to take and defend cap points.

I don't agree, half the time you end up in a capping race and you don't even fight an opposing party until quite late in the game. It's pointless as a party of 4 to try and cap a shrine that has 3 * NPC and 4 * players defending it unless its' one of the last to cap and you are ahead.

BTW. A classic n00b thing I see almost every time I play PUG on Etnaran Keys for Kursicks, or Grenz Frontier for Luxons, is that the team in the middle gate will run to the Ranger shrine, then thinks this is RA and not AB, they try and run up the hill to fight the party that has already capped the Res shrine and has NPC support, they usually loose and waste valuable time.

Divineshadows · Feb 22, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Builds that don't work that well:

anything that relies on degen

I agree with your points aside from this one. Cripshot rangers with hunter's shot is great in AB for stalling individuals from moving from one point to the next. Just crip and move on. Trying to kill with just a cripshot is typically a waste of time, but the degen does help when you're with your main team.

Mantra of persistence + crippling anguish + imagined burden is another fun build to play in alliance battles. It cannot cripple nearly as many players, but crippling two players for 30+ seconds trying to move between points or catching them just as they come out from their rez point can be key.

Both are degen builds, but their main effectiveness in AB is the snares that they provide. Party team movement buffs like charge or fall back (from a paragon secondary) are money in AB.

Riotgear · Feb 22, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

- Don't run monks (imo). You are better off with four offensive players, minor self heals, effective shutdown, and deadly offense.

I run a monk all the time there, it helps a lot. The only thing you need to make sure of though is that you're running a monk alongside three other extremely aggressive players. There are plenty of other aggressive players out there, and if your group starts getting fragmented as soon as a burst sin targets your squishies and pushes "I Win", then you're going to quickly lose steam.

Just make sure you bring something to handle burst sins, you WILL encounter them and your teammates will NOT be able to help you against them. Natural Stride or Shield Bash are quite effective.

Quote:

Builds that are grossly overrated:
...
MM

MMs in AB benefit from ridiculous amounts of corpses, can steamroll shrines, and make your group very hard to attack. How are they overrated?

Play style also varies by match, but here's what to expect:
All maps: You can not cap a rez shrine if they own it and outnumber you. Ever. If this happens, go somewhere else.

Saltspray: Go where the other team isn't. Speed boosts and snares are your friend. Saltspray almost always devolves into mob vs. mob, and aggressive cap groups that can run from end-to-end and clean up when the mob moves out can win the match.

Keys/Frontier: Your team is dumb. If the point outside your front gate gets capped, they will waste their time fighting the mob instead of taking the side teleporters. Don't be dumb. Gank the rez shrine EVERY time it's abandoned. If you're starting on the side closer to the rez shrines, take a side teleporter, cap a side shrine, then cut to the rez shrine so whoever's occupying the outer side shrines can go by, then cap behind them. Otherwise you'll get stuck in a pointless fight.

Ancestral/Canyon: Are you on the disadvantaged team? Bring something that can mow NPCs without line-of-sight or you will never capture the interior. Are you on the advantaged team? Your top priority is to capture the rez shrines, but ONLY if they are abandoned. If they are occupied, keep both equipment stations under control (which almost always gives you a 4-3 shrine lead due to the 2 interior points).

For builds? My personal faves:

Warrior/Assassin
Strength: 3+1
Swordsmanship: 12+1+3
Tactics: 12+1

+33% Crippling +30HP Sword
-5dmg 20% +30HP Tactics Shield
Radiant insignia on everything.

[skill]Sever Artery[/skill][skill]Gash[/skill][skill]Final Thrust[/skill][skill]Frenzy[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Malice[/skill][skill]"You're All Alone!"[/skill]

Monk/Warrior
(CAUTION: I fail at monk. This build works, but can undoubtedly be improved by someone who knows what the hell they're doing.)

Protection Prayers: 12+1+3
Divine Favor: 10+1
Tactics: 8
(Or you can switch it to 9/9 and get +8 armor for meeting the shield req)

+5 energy +20% enchanting spear
+30HP Tactics Shield (inscription doesn't really matter)

[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Shielding Hands[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Disciplined Stance[/skill][skill]Shield Bash[/skill]

Patrick Smit · Feb 22, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

A monk in a good team can help alot against disaster and setbacks. When I ABeed i was capping usually with a monk supporting me, and the rest annoying players around us. I ran a renewal MS build to clean shrines.

I played degen necro as well, and it works pretty well when u can take life siphon, reapers, and parasitic as cover. That i supplement with disenchant like Gaze of contempt and chillblains for the stupid 55 and other invincibuilds that u frequently meet out there. Dash will help u get away. The degen necro isnt that effective against NPCees, but will pay of against players if played wisely.

In general most offensive builds, and builds that can support that, work well, avoid mobs and enemy parties, as suggested above, and cap untill u can hold them in their base. Single people can be taklen out if it is not a typical tanking build trying to take your time.

Shuuda · Feb 22, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

If your playing a Dervish I wouldn't recommend using an avatar elite, due to the match length.

As people have said, you should try to avoid big mobs, but if you see a single foe capping a shrine (eg a nuker) it's a good idea to try and stop them(a good assassin normally has little trouble doing this) because it's stupid to just let them cap shrine, AB is about capping shrines, but don't forget to defened them as well.

I've found as a luxon, if you go 3 - 5 - 4 on Grenz it is possible to cap the middle res shrine, and get an advantage in the match.

bungusmaximus · Feb 22, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

I always use something alongside this:
-Assassin
-Assassin
-Monk
-Blinding Surge ele
Good defense (blind+healing) and frontloaded damage (sins/air damage), pretty mobile, and every char is able to bring a speed buff.
Of course it's not the only build that works. Just experiment with the tips in this thread in mind and you'll be fine I guess.

Never use this:
-Tanking wammos (Can't kill)
-Invincible earth eles (Can't kill)
-55 monk >doh<
-Touchers (unless you feel like being an ass, in that case you should make a team with 4 of them

)
-Spirit pooping rit's (other variants are fine, as long as they are mobile)
-Thumpers (try to fit decent self heal on a thumper bar, no go)
-Dedicated nukers (they only clear shrines, but don't kill players)

It is a fact though that many AB players kinda suck, they just want to barge in and OMGWTFPWN stuff. I strongly recommend to play with friends/guildies if you want to have serious fun.

Patrick Smit · Feb 22, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

nothing wrong with a dedicated nuker, but maybe u can tell me why u think so? There are always some small skills available to help kill players. While capping is a delight. As long as u have two other offensive chars in an organized team, u will do fine. Most of the teams are so disorganized that u don't need more player killers.

bungusmaximus · Feb 22, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

nothing wrong with a dedicated nuker, but maybe u can tell me why u think so? There are always some small skills available to help kill players. While capping is a delight. As long as u have two other offensive chars in an organized team, u will do fine. Most of the teams are so disorganized that u don't need more player killers.

I deliberately used the word dedicated. Nothing wrong with bringing searing flames or something, ppl can't walk out of that. If you take things like breath of fire, firestorm and other stuff however, people will just run out of it and it won't do maximum damage. That is if people are dumb enough to hug together in the first place. The only nuke I would take is searing flames, because it can kill a single player as well and it can't be dodged.
Other point, relying on the stupidity of other players won't improve anyones playing skills. And quite often I also meet HA or TA players in AB who want to have a little laid back fun.

Blame the Monks · Feb 22, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I agree with your points aside from this one. ... Just crip and move on. Trying to kill with just a cripshot is typically a waste of time, but the degen does help when you're with your main team.

The problem with degen is too often you can't get the kill you need. How often have you seen your degen mesmer fight a warrior who just waddles around casting heal sig? It takes you forever to actually kill him, if you can. Now as you say, there are other strengths that can make the build worthwhile, but in general degen is not a good way to quickly kill targets like you want to in AB. This is why I would always prefer a burning ranger to a cripshot or a sin to a degen mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I don't agree, half the time you end up in a capping race and you don't even fight an opposing party until quite late in the game.

Which gets more points -- trading caps or trading caps looking for a chance to wipe another squad, then holding multiple shines unopposed until they res? As I said, any build can cap shrines, but builds designed simply to trade caps will get rolled by an offensive team. This is what a lot of people don't get about AB -- capping is ultimately simply stalling until someone gains an advantage by fighting (or by the other side being so dumb they forget to cap, which isn't uncommon). This is why the team that usually wins AB is not the team that focuses on capping, but the team that wins fights as they cap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I run a monk all the time there, it helps a lot. The only thing you need to make sure of though is that you're running a monk alongside three other extremely aggressive players.

What does a monk add that intelligent play cannot? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have your own burst asses use feign, your softy to run distortion or something, and fight only when it favors you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

MMs in AB benefit from ridiculous amounts of corpses, can steamroll shrines, and make your group very hard to attack. How are they overrated?

Relatively low mobility, relatively high setup and maintenance time, one spike and your army becomes a liability, and everything they can do can be done by another class without those liabilities.

But in any event, this is just my advice. As with anything on the internet, take it with a grain of salt.

clawofcrimson · Feb 22, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeah_hi

In your opinion, is there a build that's pretty easy to master if you're a complete beginner? I can roll pretty much anything. Things like weapon swaps/energy hiding (are they even used in AB?) are all a bit foreign to me right now, so anything that's relatively easy to pick up and run with would be great. I'd like to be at least some use to the team that's unfortunate enough to be lumbered with me.

Any advice appreciated - even if it's just things to avoid (mending W/Mo yay!) - thanks.

I would say just find something that works well for you... and stay away from too many secondary skills on your skillbar.... you dont really need to weapon swap unless you have a complex build...or if you want to squeeze the most damage out of your attacks...

just stick to what you know... even if your build is not perfect you can still function in AB ....the enviroment is pretty forgiving

Riotgear · Feb 23, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

What does a monk add that intelligent play cannot? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have your own burst asses use feign, your softy to run distortion or something, and fight only when it favors you?

First, player quality-control in AB is limited because the player pool tends to suck. Second, you can't expect everyone to bring self-condition removal, self-healing, a block stance to make sure they don't get instagibbed by burst sins, and have enough skill slots left to do actual damage.

3 players that don't die do a better job of killing things than 4 players that do.

Patrick Smit · Feb 23, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

I deliberately used the word dedicated. Nothing wrong with bringing searing flames or something, ppl can't walk out of that. If you take things like breath of fire, firestorm and other stuff however, people will just run out of it and it won't do maximum damage. That is if people are dumb enough to hug together in the first place. The only nuke I would take is searing flames, because it can kill a single player as well and it can't be dodged.
Other point, relying on the stupidity of other players won't improve anyones playing skills. And quite often I also meet HA or TA players in AB who want to have a little laid back fun.

I agree with your arguments, but as a player u should know when to use "stupid" AoE skills and when not. Glyph of renewal, meteor shower, deatch charge(or just run), Bed of coals do wonders on NPCees, they almost never run out. But its a waste on players, I just use immolate, and glowing gaze to help the cause. I just use this (long time ago) in AB, as elsewhere it wont budge a thing.

I also prefer direct damage but some skills relying on enemies stupidity still work pretty well, vengeful weapon, weapon of remedy, clumsiness. Usually they are not so detering as for example backfire, so people will continue to attack and finally they will lie dead on the floor if not supported or constant heal sig usage. But I agree indeed that u will (almost) always need direct damage to finish off targets that are smarter then the idiots that don't look at damage obtained and hex/condition bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

The problem with degen is too often you can't get the kill you need. How often have you seen your degen mesmer fight a warrior who just waddles around casting heal sig? It takes you forever to actually kill him, if you can. Now as you say, there are other strengths that can make the build worthwhile, but in general degen is not a good way to quickly kill targets like you want to in AB. This is why I would always prefer a burning ranger to a cripshot or a sin to a degen mesmer.

Degen mesmers are IMO not worth it, a necro is much better at the job, as the degen is longer lasting, u get some health from it as well, and get huge support from the environment, lots of deaths resulting in superior energy management. In ateam degen can work perfectly fine as u serve to soften them up, while the rest eliminates the targets with direct damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Which gets more points -- trading caps or trading caps looking for a chance to wipe another squad, then holding multiple shines unopposed until they res? As I said, any build can cap shrines, but builds designed simply to trade caps will get rolled by an offensive team. This is what a lot of people don't get about AB -- capping is ultimately simply stalling until someone gains an advantage by fighting (or by the other side being so dumb they forget to cap, which isn't uncommon). This is why the team that usually wins AB is not the team that focuses on capping, but the team that wins fights as they cap.

if the opposing team has a good monk and u dont, its usually better to leave em alone. Capping in 9 seconds or capping in 15 seconds makes the difference (less damage obtained, need less energy /time to recover), as well if everybody moves in the cap radius immeadiately. Speed boost and high DPS are thus essential to make u cap at the highest rate possible.

I must say, I haven't been in AB for like weeks so maybe burstsins prevent u to run a simple capping strategy, but i doubt that. I usually have good results by focussing on capping and picking of individuals, rather then going into skirmish with full teams, which sometimes retreat to the nearest friendly shrine when things go awry, making it difficult to eliminate them. I rather be oppurtunistic, then having confidence in my skills (and my team mates ones) in equal situations. Its much more stochastic/chancebased in outcome, then a clear superiority where u have 1 or more players in your ranks.

I must say the the build using two burstsins on two different targets may make good chances to elimante oposing forces, but who doesnt run any anti melee with all these sins around?

bungusmaximus · Feb 23, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

First, player quality-control in AB is limited because the player pool tends to suck. Second, you can't expect everyone to bring self-condition removal, self-healing, a block stance to make sure they don't get instagibbed by burst sins, and have enough skill slots left to do actual damage.

3 players that don't die do a better job of killing things than 4 players that do.

Yeh my idea exactly, I don't get why you shouldn't take a monk in AB. Theres a crapload of debilitating conditions and hexes around and every profession in the game is more or less represented. Some professions don't have too much room for self heal on their bar in the first place. I played my best matches with a good monk in my team, or with myself being monk and we had no trouble killing things fast.
Nothing like a good hex remove to screw boa sins over.
No fun either when your team degens out after successfully capping the necro shrine. A group falling apart because people die doesn't kill fast either.

Blame the Monks · Feb 23, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

First, player quality-control in AB is limited because the player pool tends to suck.

Yes, player quality is low in AB. That fact is also completely irrelevant because both sides are equally bad and so it factors itself out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Second, you can't expect everyone to bring self-condition removal, self-healing, a block stance to make sure they don't get instagibbed by burst sins, and have enough skill slots left to do actual damage.

Why not? Perhaps the three most common effective builds:

YAA
dblow, dismemb, agon, wild, YAA, dash, sig mal, heal sig

Burstass
AOD, burst, GLS, wild, horns, falling, blades, feign

Burn
BURNING, sav, dis, pin, apply, natural, mending, troll

None are particularly vulnerable to asses, each can withstand -10 degen for quite a while (maybe forever), two of the three are condition resistant, and you have have interrupts, snares, antistance, etc. The ass is the exception (as it is just a glass cannon), but it still kills quickly. What monk will withstand this attack for more than 30 seconds? Finally, remember the constraints of the environment -- the point isn't to survive at all costs (ala GvG), the point is to kill/cap more often than the other guys. These builds give you the tools to do that.

Besides, I said bring self hex/condition remove IF POSSIBLE. If you lack a condition remove, don't engage the blindbot. Its as simple as that. If you are fighting a hex stack team, interrupt the ones that matter and kill quickly so they can't debilitate you out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Degen mesmers are IMO not worth it, a necro is much better at the job, as the degen is longer lasting, u get some health from it as well, and get huge support from the environment, lots of deaths resulting in superior energy management. In ateam degen can work perfectly fine as u serve to soften them up, while the rest eliminates the targets with direct damage.

Not the point. The point is if it can kill quickly, and degen can't quickly kill most people in AB. A heal sig, a feign, heck, a healing breeze and your degen necro stands around waiting for someone else to do something. Meanwhile, another offensive toon could be killing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

if the opposing team has a good monk and u dont, its usually better to leave em alone.

Not at all. Monks win extended engagements, but that isn't what you will be fighting. You will either roll in and blow them up quickly then ignore the stance tanks or other worthless, nonthreatening toons (monks).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Capping in 9 seconds or capping in 15 seconds makes the difference (less damage obtained, need less energy /time to recover), as well if everybody moves in the cap radius immeadiately. Speed boost and high DPS are thus essential to make u cap at the highest rate possible.

Let's go by your own math -- your team caps in 6 seconds (plus say 30 seconds of running per cap), mine caps in 15 seconds (+ 30). Over the entire time of a game (assuming all we ever do is trade caps), your squad will hold the shrines for slightly longer, so lets guesstimate roughly 25 more points. So even in your ideal situation, you barely get more points. On the other hand, if the 15 second team picks off one person one time, they will get more points (capping faster) + the point from the kill. It won't take much combat to outpace a capping team.

Winning AB is about defeating the other teams. Sooner or later the team that wins wins because they defeat enough players to begin to hold territory as they wipe the other side. Trading caps is merely stalling until you find a favorable opportunity to strike.

Riotgear · Feb 23, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

What monk will withstand this attack for more than 30 seconds?

I think I survived something like that just last night, actually. I've escaped mobs on numerous occasions, and I've been able to stay up against YAA pests so long that they give up. :P

Quote:

Besides, I said bring self hex/condition remove IF POSSIBLE. If you lack a condition remove, don't engage the blindbot. Its as simple as that.

There are blindbots in AB? The main concern is getting rid of DW and cripple. It's also generally more efficient (in terms of time and energy) to just remove poison+bleed than heal through them, unless you're getting spammed with apply.

Quote:

You will either roll in and blow them up quickly then ignore the stance tanks or other worthless, nonthreatening toons (monks).

Most confrontations end with everyone on one side dead, and most group confrontations end with a casualty on the winning side. If your group is in fact built so well that it'll never suffer any casualties with no healer, good for you. But the reality is that, unless you're running with the mob, you're going to run into SOMETHING that outmatches you, or sooner or later circumstance is just going to fall out of your favor. Maybe your YAA guy will get trained (can't YAA a train, can't use SoM) and eats a full combo from a prison sin. Poisoned, bleeding, DW'd, and half-way to dead, and all it took was focus-fire from two assassins. Healing signet is going to save you?

Hell, you can put any of those against something as simple as a Life Transfer blood spike noob, and your self-heal is already outpaced. What would you do against SS?

The reason to take a monk is exactly that, circumstance becomes a lot less of a factor and you can push through just about anything. As long as you take players with decent damage output, it hardly matters what you face. It's nice to be able to stay together, cap something, and have no downtime until the next one. It's nice to be able to cap the ele shrine without a casualty (unless someone packs MS, but who packs MS that isn't prison sin bait?). It's nice to be able to severely waste the other team's time when you have a shrine lead because they can't kill or even thin out your group.

Divineshadows · Feb 23, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

If I were to run a monk in AB, then I would want it to be a build that would not slow down the rest of my team otherwise you're holding your team back when moving from point to point. That said, I think that Mo/A with dash and either dark escape or return would work ok. Or a Mo/R with a 5 second natural stride.

Although I still feel that a monk is wholly unnecessary and even a bit sub-optimal for strong teams of 4 in AB because with speed buffs and snares you can simply move elsewhere away from the enemy and only attack when you have a numbers advantage or other significant tactical advantages.

Patrick Smit · Feb 23, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

@ Blame the monks, I don't see why a build that isn't able to beat TA teams would be better in AB to win most of the confrontations. Maybe u can kill some but if only they take a simple res they will be quick together again. I bet your experience with your team is good. It has several reasons, first you are a guild team, maybe on TS/vent. And second if u have some/alot of PvP experience u know what pitfalls to avoid. Likely in contrast to what a lot of ABers are, usually its their first "PvP" experience, and do that with subobtimal characters (PvE toons, so often not having perfect runes, modifiers, and skill set).

@divine shadows: you can have buffs, but they can also have snares and buffs, and just picking of one will be peanuts. Then it comes to decision making, sacrifice, and continue, or come to the recue?

General: Its true, a monk is absolutely not essential, moving around carefully and some selfsustainability can prevent quite some deaths, but for sure not in al confrontations, as what Riotgear is pointing at, also opponents will be dishing a fair amount of damage at ya, shock and awe aplies to one character maybe, but not to rest that didnt get shocked.