Curse

Vermilion · Apr 20, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

I assumed as much. But I just wanted to get the point across that the build is run so often because it works. Using overrated and misplaced skills and things like sup runes will not get you on obs mode.

Unless you're on jade.

Clinically Proven · Apr 20, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

And I really doubt if Blame the Monks played for any rank 2000+ guild lately. I did, a couple of times. We ran eF's build (or something close to that). And it was horrible. There were that many things wrong that I had no idea where to start correcting them.

I have to agree with Blame the Monks and others with similar advice, run a top 20 build.

DutchSmurf, I have guested with alot of sub-1000 guilds (we used to mentor guilds in our alliance that were starting PvP) and I can tell you that it's the best way to learn.

You and your guild need to ask others for their opinion, observations and help if you don't know how to fix them.

That being said, I reckon you did okay for a first build, it needs some help but at least you're on the right track. If you're really keen to run it anyway, here's my opinion on a few things:

* Reapers Nec: drop Barbs for Parasidic Bond. Higher SR spec needed, you can lower the curses attrib for that.
* Migrane: drop soothing for images of remorse and shackles for purge signet.
* Depravity: Loose it entirely for a BHA or BA ranger, which can also support your assassin on a gank.
* Drop extinguish on the runner for a self heal - healing or restful breeze should do the trick.
* Don't run superior runes on monks or midline casters. Major at the very most, minors preferrable.
* Personally, I dont like running two assassins. I'd drop the shadow shroud for a Melandru's Dervish or a pressure warrior of some type (eg. crip slash, dev hammer, dragon slash etc)

Phelann · Apr 20, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMidgit

well thats the thing, im not trying to run a build thats on obs mode 24/7

then you will stay out of obs mode 24/7:\

DutchSmurf · Apr 20, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

I have to agree with Blame the Monks and others with similar advice, run a top 20 build.

DutchSmurf, I have guested with alot of sub-1000 guilds (we used to mentor guilds in our alliance that were starting PvP) and I can tell you that it's the best way to learn.

You and your guild need to ask others for their opinion, observations and help if you don't know how to fix them.

That being said, I reckon you did okay for a first build, it needs some help but at least you're on the right track. If you're really keen to run it anyway, here's my opinion on a few things:

Not sure if this is what you were trying to do, but it wasn't me asking for advice. If that wasn't what you were trying, ignore this part.

@Phelann, not every guild wants to be top 100. And there is nothing wrong with running something different then the topguilds. Atleast that way you have thought about your skills, know why they are in your build and have an idea about how to play it right. Which is also why I'm not a big fan if just copying builds. Copying a build works, if you have some ideas about how to run it, not if you are new. And if everyone just copies builds, this game will never get interesting. Guilds like From The Lost To The River (who run a very interesting build, although it does have Searing Flames and 3 assassins) and Necro Raiders (who are back to their old build) make this game fun. Even when not getting into the top 100.

And about the build, still not sure about the Depravity necro. It might actually work great, most of all at the lower levels. But I'm also a huge fan of the Burning Arrow and Broad Head Arrow rangers. So that will be something you need to decide yourself. However, if you keep it, expose on the assassins is in my opinion worth more then one rigor mortis. And although Barbs add a lot, 2 assassins shouldn't need that, since their damage is more then high enough without it already.
Also Shadow Shroud isn't as useful as it once was, since many people run a healer and a prot-monk lately. So I think a second Shadow Prison works better. You can also go for Shroud of Silence, but I don't think the other people in this forum like that suggestion

You indeed need to look at some attributepoints. And for some reason superior runes are considered worthless these days. Could understand that during the times everyone ran spike, with the current pressurebuilds I'm not that sure. Probably best to stay away from those, atleast on your monks.
As I said before, I would take Mantra of Persistence on the Migraine mesmer. There was a time when I calculated which combination of Inspiration and Illusion works best for that, but those are lost somewhere between all data I collected the past years.
I normally don't comment on monks, but only 1 Aegis isn't going to do much. Either run 3 or don't run it at all. For the rest someone who plays monks more then I do should react on those.
The runner is lacking a selfheal, which can be dangerous when the other team splits. Not that Healing Breeze is that good as selfheal, but it is atleast something. Maybe consider Heal Area. You lack damage to kill their gank anyway, and with Heal Area you actually heal yourself fast. And I'm not sure about running Heal Party without any source of energymanagement, except for Glyph.

And that was about everything I can think about for now. For all others reading it, react on my suggestions about his build, not about my opinion about copying builds. If you want to react on that, please use PMs so we can try to stay on topic here.

Blame the Monks · Apr 20, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

@Phelann, not every guild wants to be top 100. And there is nothing wrong with running something different then the topguilds. Atleast that way you have thought about your skills, know why they are in your build and have an idea about how to play it right. Which is also why I'm not a big fan if just copying builds.

Not trying to be rude, but if you don't care about winning and/or don't want to learn from the experience of the top 100, why would you make this thread?

Zui · Apr 20, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Copying a build works, if you have some ideas about how to run it, not if you are new. And if everyone just copies builds, this game will never get interesting.

What are you talking about?

Everyone can observe matches of said top guild, and get an idea of how they run it as a team, and how the play each charactar individualy. Even if the guild running it doesn't do that(which they should), at least they know that when they fail, it's not the fault of the build. Bad guilds that run their own (bad) builds change build after almost every single loss, and after games they win too(Ex: Monk bringing 4 hex removal skills instead of 0 because they faced a team with a single water ele and had some trouble with it). Why? Because they don't know why they failed, and bad players almost always think they're alot better than they are. Being able to identify you suck, and you need to improve is alot better than sucking and not putting your finger on it because you can blame your build every single time.

As for "if everyone just copies builds the game will never get interesting." I don't really have a response to that, it just made me lol, like most of your post did actually (<3 Blame's response to part of it).

Also "Guilds like From The Lost To The River (who run a very interesting build, although it does have Searing Flames and 3 assassins)... make this game fun. Even when not getting into the top 100." really made me lol.

DutchSmurf · Apr 20, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Since you are all top players and seem to have an opinion about everything, when are you finally going to help MentalMidgit with more then just a simple "go watch observermode" ? Do you really think that helps anyone? So far Blame has posted a lot, but nothing that actually helps anyone. Same for everyone here, except me and Clinically Proven.

Anyway, since you all can't read I will repeat something from my last post. This topic is about helping MentalMidgit with his build. If you have problems with my personal opinions related to buildstealing/making, just send me a pm.

Blame the Monks · Apr 20, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

when are you finally going to help MentalMidgit with more then just a simple "go watch observermode" ? Do you really think that helps anyone? So far Blame has posted a lot, but nothing that actually helps anyone.

I don't think you get it. "Go watch observermode" is the most helpful advice he can get. Copying a top build eliminates the risk of a shitty build. Watching obs should give you ideas and examples of how to use the tools in your build. That is why we are discouraging your posts, because you are steering him away from learning from the top 20 and into trying to reinvent the wheel.

Or to put it more simply: if you want to get good at this game, copy a top 20 build and focus on your individual play and teamwork, not build.

DutchSmurf · Apr 20, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I don't think you get it. "Go watch observermode" is the most helpful advice he can get. Copying a top build eliminates the risk of a shitty build. Watching obs should give you ideas and examples of how to use the tools in your build. That is why we are discouraging your posts, because you are steering him away from learning from the top 20 and into trying to reinvent the wheel.

Or to put it more simply: if you want to get good at this game, copy a top 20 build and focus on your individual play and teamwork, not build.

I already agreed that you can learn a lot about watching top 20 guilds, if you watch the right ones. I disagree with saying "go watch observermode" when someone asks for advice and stop there. So just so we can end this topic, which top 20 guilds should he watch? I do know that EW isn't a smart choice at the moment, since there current build doesn't look that easy to run.

Blame the Monks · Apr 20, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

which top 20 guilds should he watch?

I believe the simple answer is best -- just watch the ones that regularly play in your time zone. Their builds are most likely adjusted to your meta and plus you can see them more often (and I believe watching the same guild(s) regularly is better than just randomly watching).

Teams that I get a lot out of watching:

cow -- insane aggression and disruption. great examples of winning thru offense on their good days
MH -- MH is good because they never gimmick. They are good for showing you how to use tried and true balanced builds well
iQ -- iQ constantly redefines the meta by using skills in new ways. Unparalleled strategic play
LAG -- imo, by far the most underrated american build, LAG has some of the most clean adren spikes you will find. good examples of mastering one build
honk -- one of the best frontlines and backlines in the game. If you play either, you should take every opportunity to obs these guys.
EW -- ew is good at intelligently reacting to splits. watch them as they never send back the same 3 mindlessly, but always review each split and send back what works
eF -- very melon
WM -- insane micro and teamwork. not that i can duplicate it, but I can stand around awestruck by the fact they regularly interrupt shit by comboing up wild blow and dshot and crap

Those are the main teams I obs, but I play in EST. This is also slanted to teams I am a member of or guest regularly for because I know them and their style (and I want them to succeed). I also don't typically watch anyone outside the top 20, nor do I watch people who get top 20 running trash.

JR · Apr 20, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Since you are all top players and seem to have an opinion about everything, when are you finally going to help MentalMidgit with more then just a simple "go watch observermode" ? Do you really think that helps anyone?

Yes, it really does.

LifesRestorer · Apr 20, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

just a few more minor tweaks.

LoD/Infuse - this character has deny hexes but no other DF skills. change it for a veil.
Icy Shackles Runner - extinguish can be changed for a self heal. resful breeze has been suggested. also, if you are going to have an aegis on the RC, at least have 2, so swap HP out for aegis on the runner too, otherwise it's just fodder for mirror of disenchant.

Monks - the problem is, if the RC gets something such as a broad headed arrow ranger on him, he can't remove the daze himself and neither can his partner monk. giving the infuser a draw instead of dismiss will allow a quick, pretty much non interruptable condition removal and then the RC can take it off him.
To be honest, seeing as you arent running hybrid monks i wouldnt bother running prot spirit AND spirit bond, but if you really do want it, i suggest you swap round the two. i don't really like the idea of having 2 spike saves on one person. generally you need to press spirit bond more for it to be effective and therefore is better used on the RC.

not really sure about the migraine bar. i think take out the spirit shackles (even though i really like it) and the soothing. put in images of remorse and a leech signet.

all in all, i like that you have tried to be different and havent just gone for the same old crap of nicking someone elses build. imo, this sort of stuff just turns you into a one trick pony but being able to design stuff yourself and know how it works instead of just playing it and going 'wow this build ownz' is really something. keep up the good work!

MentalMidgit · Apr 21, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

DutchSmurf and LifeRestorer thank you very much for your help. I like how you guys actually give suggestions instead of saying "go copy a build".

Patrograd · Apr 21, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMidgit

. I like how you guys actually give suggestions instead of saying "go copy a build".

The suggestion to copy a build is the best advice you will ever recieve and by far the best suggestion in this thread.

I believe that in any walk of life you should aim to emulate the people that are better than you in whatever field you are operating. I think that to ignore the advice of people like Blame and JR is the shortcut to failure. They are advising you from their own competitive viewpoint, and you need to understand that competitive players have difficulty sometimes in understanding people who are happy to lose or are happy with being rank 300.

Essentially as a GW player you have a choice, either to play "for fun", or to play to try and be the best. No-one can make this choice for you, some people arent cut out to be competitive, no shame in that at all.

Playing for fun. You can happily make up your own builds, and given a reasonable group of players and good leadership, you might get to rank 3-400. Run something imbalanced and you might even reach rank 100-150. You'll have alot of fun I'm sure, experimenting with builds and skills, but you have imposed a glass celing on what you can achieve, because you are using your build to win games, and ultimately, you will just come across teams that beat you through a better understanding of the game, and a better understanding of their skillbars. Personally I find that frustrating, and it drives me to want to improve, but it is possible that you are happy to accept that thats just the way it is

Playing to be the best. Why limit yourself? Run a top build, and figure out, over time, how that build works, how each skill interacts with the others. Develop team work and tactics, develop a better understanding of the game, develop how to identify issues and solve them not through tweaks to the build but through playing better, through using the skills that you do have differently. This takes quite some time, and there can be periods where you cant buy a win, but as long as all the time you are wokring as a group to figure out what went wrong and what you could do about it, then you will be learning, and I mean really learning how the game works. Spend alot of time in obs mode, observing the top teams, their movement, their skill usage, their skill efficiency - observe your own games and compare notes - what are they doing that you arent? Its time consuming, it can be at times very frustrating, but as long as you have the courage to stick at it, even in the face of a depressing rank or series of results, then you come out of it a better team, with a better understanding of the game. A rapid climb up the ladder is then inevitable, only this time, when you hit those better teams, you are equipped with the play skills to match them, and eventually beat them. You just removed the limits to what you can achieve, and opened yourself up to where this game is at its most intense, its most thrilling, and by far the most fun, near the top of the ladder.

As I said before, this isnt a decision that can be made for your team, it depends on what you want from the game as a group. Light hearted fun or serious competition? Up to you, just dont kid yourself that you are competitive when you arent.

Reiver Daemn · Apr 21, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

And if everyone just copies builds, this game will never get interesting. Guilds like From The Lost To The River (who run a very interesting build, although it does have Searing Flames and 3 assassins)
.

Absolutely agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Even when not getting into the top 100.

They will be very soon....definetly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

As for "if everyone just copies builds the game will never get interesting." I don't really have a response to that, it just made me lol, like most of your post did actually

Are you jocking??? I can't believe you couldn't take that point.....

rii · Apr 21, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

On the subject of copy a 'top' guild build, or run gimmicks like SP/BOA (assuming they're not the same thing) then from my experience both can work fine.

Guilds I've known that started with a solid build like the one Blame posted above... they got creamed. Again and again and again. They spent a long time getting creamed, but eventually got better at running it and once they started running it well they got a lot better because they sat back, looked at their games and ironed out their problems (slowly).

Others ran gimmicks, such as SP/BOA+savannah+gole/aegis... and they won plenty of games (although lost a fair few as well). Eventually, they got high enough in the ladder where people would be well versed in beating these gimmicks, and so they adapted their build and it eventually evolved into something a bit more 'balanced'.

Both methods ended up working to a reasonable extent, but the reason wasn't because of what they ran, it was because of their attitude... as has been mentioned even with simple builds there is usually plenty of room for improvement, and both types of guild that improved got where they got because they looked back on their games, identified their mistakes and corrected them.

If you're a huge guild like XoO then running more complex builds might be better, since you're always going to have people to play games, even if you lose a lot. Smaller guilds that aren't as active might want to run a more gimmicky build on the basis that winning is fun and more likely to promote activity and improvement from that.

Zui · Apr 21, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Are you jocking??? I can't believe you couldn't take that point.....

It's not inability to respond, it's the pointlessness of doing so. What he said is obviously stupid. He is obviously stupid. Debating weither a stupid person is stupid, with that person, is pretty dumb. It doesn't accomplish anything except wasting your time, and making an idiot say more stupid things. I happen to actually value my time, even though stupid people being stupid make me laugh.

Time to go play Guild Wars now. I can't beleive I actualy responded to that...

Reiver Daemn · Apr 21, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

What he said is obviously stupid. He is obviously stupid. Debating weither a stupid person is stupid,....bla bla bla

LOLAZO!!

""Mama always says,stupid is as stupid does.""

LifesRestorer · Apr 21, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

this is the problem nowdays. yeah, you can just pike someones imba build and go grind your way into the top 200, but does that really give an idea of how much skill or potential you really have? no, it just means you were able to run something overpowered where build beats skill.

anyways back on topic, i think the meta is changing to this paragon stuff with the hybrid monks depending on the paragons for their defence (soldiers defence). the vocal minority will really help you if this is to be the new metagame.

Mental Leteci · Apr 21, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

MentalMidgit, I was just wondering if you are an ex Mental Block member?