Curse

assassin of the god · Apr 22, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Why should that be a goal?

what about making it playable, balanced, and a skill that rewards actual skill?

moko · Apr 22, 2007, 08:42 AM // 08:42

you gotta be careful, if you buff DF spells too much, Deny would eventually be superior to Divert.

i actually have to agree with assassin of the god, it would make the skill itself a bit more useful, not just a "random" change so Deny works better.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 22, 2007, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

you gotta be careful, if you buff DF spells too much, Deny would eventually be superior to Divert.

i actually have to agree with assassin of the god, it would make the skill itself a bit more useful, not just a "random" change so Deny works better.

It'd have to remove 6-7 hexes to remove as much hexes per second as Divert. Don't forget it's on a 12 sec recharge while Divert is on a 5 sec recharge. Then I don't count the massive healing and the condition removal from Divert.

For the rest, I agree with Assassin.

moko · Apr 22, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

It'd have to remove 6-7 hexes to remove as much hexes per second as Divert. Don't forget it's on a 12 sec recharge while Divert is on a 5 sec recharge. Then I don't count the massive healing and the condition removal from Divert.

For the rest, I agree with Assassin.

except Deny can't be shutdown by Humility. :> you'd have spot for another elite which could supply the heal, and the condition removal hardly ever matters.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 22, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

except Deny can't be shutdown by Humility. :> you'd have spot for another elite which could supply the heal, and the condition removal hardly ever matters.

Just pointing out that your fear that it might match or surpass Divert for hex removal was unfounded.

D Fault · Apr 22, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Except seeing as Deny is not elite it is quite possible it and whatever divine skill is made good would be run on both monks (or 3 monks depending on what you're running).

It might not be a greater skill when compared directly, but the fact that one is elite and one is not counts for alot overall.

Zuranthium · Apr 22, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Why should that be a goal?

I dunno, why should the game designers EVER make skills that work well together? Hmmmm, I wonder.

But I really don't like the idea of Divine Interventation on a shorter recharge in the first place. A 15 second recharge would make it too good for skirmishes where it's not nearly as much of a risk to simply let your health or an NPC's health drop down to 0 to gain the heal from DI. Do we really want Monk runners to become the standard? The poor functionality of the skill comes into play in a group setting. The problem being, to get any reward out of the spell, you have to LET your teammate drop to very low health. When someone gets spiked, if you use DI, you can't just stop healing. Way too risky. So what usually happens is the other Monk's heals plus whatever you used after DI ends up saving the target anyway and it never triggers. A big waste.

If you had used Rof instead, the target would have received a sure heal and ended up at higher health by the end of the spike more often than not. If DI was changed, however, you could actually ask the player on vent if DI is still on them after the spike. If it didn't trigger, you can just leave them at about 70% health and wait 5 seconds for the spell to bring them back up to full. Now it's actually doing something 100% of the time.

Now, with the current numbers, that amount of healing for 5 energy would be too much. Drop them somewhat and it would still be the strongest straight-up heal a Prot Monk could have, so the skill would be useful on their bar. The other option would be to have it trigger when the enchanted person drops below like 33% health. In which case it would actually be worthwhile to use on spikes.

Getting back to Deny Hexes...also remember that the conditionality does limit it a good amount. Even if Divine Intervention was made better, there's no garuntee that it will always be recharging right when you want to use Deny. Similarly, the other Divine Favor skill you'd most likely have on your bar, Signet of Devotion, is QUITE a pain in the ass to use with Deny because of how fast it recharges. If one of your melee teammates is getting lots of anti-melee thrown on them, having to use Signet of Devo before using Deny wastes quite a bit of your time and you can be sure that a cover hex or two will be on that melee by the time you finally do get around to casting Deny on them. So Purge Signet still has a place. As does HOLY VEIL, for sure. Deny Hexes, even in the face of improved Divine Favor skills, probably isn't something you'd want on both of your Monks.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Apr 22, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I dunno, why should the game designers EVER make skills that work well together? Hmmmm, I wonder.

Making a skill bad in order to work good with other skills is just stupid. That's got 'GIMMICK' written all over it.
As for the rest of your post, that's pretty debatable. DI is a very strong anti-spike tool, and it's (reasonably) good at what it does: You still need to heal, but should you miss your big heal, Divine Intervention backs you up. It's basically a safety guard. You seem to want to give it a second function as a very strong anti pressure tool. That's a pretty versatile skill with TWO very strong effects (exellent healing/energy as well as pretty much a guarantee someone won't die in a spike), which is something to think twice about to say the least.

Zuranthium · Apr 23, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Making a skill bad in order to work good with other skills is just stupid. That's got 'GIMMICK' written all over it.

I don't think Deny Hexes could ever become a gimmick.

While that's been brought up, though, change the skill so that it maxes out at removing 3 hexes. Now it can't become too powerful as a sole removal over Convert, Purge, and Divert, if in theory there were enough worthy Divine Favor skills to put on your bar.

So...back to DI, can we all agree that something needs to be done to improve it? Perhaps not an auto-heal + prot together (though that is workable...most things are just by changing numbers around), but definitely something.

~Z

assassin of the god · Apr 24, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't think Deny Hexes could ever become a gimmick.

While that's been brought up, though, change the skill so that it maxes out at removing 3 hexes. Now it can't become too powerful as a sole removal over Convert, Purge, and Divert, if in theory there were enough worthy Divine Favor skills to put on your bar.

So...back to DI, can we all agree that something needs to be done to improve it? Perhaps not an auto-heal + prot together (though that is workable...most things are just by changing numbers around), but definitely something.

~Z

I agree with thomas.Making niche skills that are utterly dependtant on skill synerigies to be playable and effective is idiotic and bad for the game. Skills should be playable on their own, most synergy-dependant skills are just adding to Build Wars. DI does have potential as an anti- spike skill, and should be used/buffed as just that, not as a engine for Deny.

Zuranthium · Apr 24, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

None of my suggestions for DI required it to be paired with Deny Hexes to be playable. Not at all. You've missed the point.

~Z

skillsbas8 · Apr 25, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

GAHHH, noooo. That would work against the goal of trying to have Divine Favor skills which synergize with Deny Hexes.

~Z

I don't think we missed your point. They didn't say it had to rely on deny. They said its a bad idea to buff it just to make deny hexes playable, which is true.

Zuranthium · Apr 25, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

They said its a bad idea to buff it just to make deny hexes playable, which is true.

Again, NO.

Divine Intervention should be buffed because it's a sub-par skill. The same goes for just about EVERY other skill in the Divine Favor attribute.

The fact that buffing most any of them makes Deny Hexes more attractive is simply an intrinsic property of Deny Hexes itself. So then you have to ask if THAT skill needs to be changed. I really don't think so. Just cap it out at removing 3 hexes.

~Z

Patccmoi · Apr 25, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Again, NO.

Divine Intervention should be buffed because it's a sub-par skill. The same goes for just about EVERY other skill in the Divine Favor attribute.

The fact that buffing most any of them makes Deny Hexes more attractive is simply an intrinsic property of Deny Hexes itself. So then you have to ask if THAT skill needs to be changed. I really don't think so. Just cap it out at removing 3 hexes.

~Z

I kinda agree with that. DF skills as a whole are extremely bad except Sig of Devotion and Blessed Sig on a bonder.

If making them playable makes Deny too good, Deny is the problem. Imo Deny should have a 15s recharge and a cap (3 possibly). Because atm the only thing balancing it compared to other non-elite hex removal is the fact that a great majority of DF skills are unplayable.

I'm fine with both suggestions to DI personally (30s and heals when it ends or 15s). I don't see at all why people are making a fuss about it being sure to heal being too good. It's still a 30s recharge heal that heals 10 SEC LATER. i.e. it's absolutely unreliable as a direct heal, it would just not waste it if you happen to save the target. But DI NEEDS a buff, no matter wether if Deny exists or not.

Greedy Gus · Apr 26, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Why is DI the type of skill you really want to make easily playable?

Thomas.knbk · Apr 26, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Because you want to make every skill playable. It's an asymptote, but you should try anyway.

deadmonkey4u · Apr 26, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Its a bit meh. Tried DI multiple times throughout this game. The whole part where the target has to die makes it seem a bit crappy.

bathazard · Apr 27, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

i think what they ment for JI to be used for is when a thumper charges at you put it on with DI get thumped into tomorrow then the thumper ets a big hit from JI (also the build might work for say a farm you use DI and JI with reburtion on get owned as a 500hp monk then use that build)
in anyway JI is pretty usless, DI is ok but there are always better skills. Also maybe they ment for JI to be used as a suicide attack run into a group of guys get owned and JI them but still JI is pretty useless