Curse

Randomway Ftw · Apr 01, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I've never been in a team (unless I've personally asked for aegis to be up) where the monks have put a yellow arrow on everything. The times I have asked for aegis to be up for the yellow arrows and looked at it going down. The spike wasn't anywhere near as perfect as one might assume.

That's because of people not paying attention to which enchantment they need to remove. Caster spike could simply spike through aegis without removing it, for example the 3 E/Me, 2 Me/W obflame, would remove Aegis with shatter as part of the spike, the removal of Aegis would not indicate the target.

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For the first two spikes I disagree. Plus the monks will be high on energy to save them.

I'm not talking about old style bloodspike which tried to make the infuser run out of energy, the point of a spike build is to kill targets without giving the monks a chance to respond, it is not that difficult to design a spike build that has an uninfusable spike. It is very easy to kill on the first spikes because the other team has likely not put a lot of pressure on the spike team, or is not in a position to sufficiently disrupt the spike.

the_jos · Apr 01, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I've LoD/Infused and ZB'd during the weekend.
I'm not anywere near any good HA and I know that.
But on the subject of spikes i've seen two kinds of situations.

The first one is the one that I can handle, when my 'target' is in range.
Overextending happened quite a lot, specially with inexperienced BoA sins.
I see a slight indication of spike (like purple arrow when facing necro team, opponents making mistake to attack target before spike).
PS (have not tried SB) target or get infuse ready.
This gives a fair chance for the target to survive, specially when the other monk(s) also noticed.

The second i have only seen on high ranked guild teams and some 'random' teams that just beat us in seconds.
There is no indication of spike or just one a split second before the spike.
And many times on targets that were not very obvious (to me).
Perhaps with a lot of experience you can anticipate that, but to me a lot of spikes seemed quite random.

I do agree it's the group that can counter spikers and not only the monks.
I've done a couple of runs with my powerblock mesmer and it takes a lot of pressure away when you can shut down one or two opponents.
Specially when they have almost all skills in one attribute.
It also helped that I was in a pressure group during those runs, which also help against the spikers.
Again, most probably noobs vs noobs, but i noticed the difference.

elektra_lucia · Apr 01, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

I'm not talking about old style bloodspike which tried to make the infuser run out of energy, the point of a spike build is to kill targets without giving the monks a chance to respond, it is not that difficult to design a spike build that has an uninfusable spike. It is very easy to kill on the first spikes because the other team has likely not put a lot of pressure on the spike team, or is not in a position to sufficiently disrupt the spike.

This is going round and round in circles. It's a shame you can't just accept I disagree. For the sake of argument, let's talk about what is and not what was.

In the latter part of your post you have said the opposition is not always in a good position to disrupt or put pressure on the team; therefore, you've contradicted yourself to before, no? Since I said for the first few spikes one should rely on the monks.

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I'm not talking about old style bloodspike which tried to make the infuser run out of energy

I understand that, the bit about energy was that there is not much limiting the monks like energy or something. I still disagree, for the first couple of spikes, one should rely on the monks. You've kind of clarified that by saying the spike team won't be pressured enough and maybe not interupted to start with

.

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That's because of people not paying attention to which enchantment they need to remove. Caster spike could simply spike through aegis without removing it, for example the 3 E/Me, 2 Me/W obflame, would remove Aegis with shatter as part of the spike, the removal of Aegis would not indicate the target.

If they had shatter as part of the spike you wouldn't use aegis...

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I've LoD/Infused and ZB'd during the weekend.

ZB sucks. Also in my opinion its preventing new players to learn to prot well. They see it as a big heal and their eyes light up.

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Overextending happened quite a lot, specially with inexperienced BoA sins.

Yeah, when mentioning infusing and protting I'm assuming they'll be in range.

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I see a slight indication of spike (like purple arrow when facing necro team, opponents making mistake to attack target before spike).

It's a massive indication, but it's seen as a small one by weaker players. I've played with a lot of different rank and ability this weekend. I heard some guy saying 'infuse can't catch that' etc. When it could be infused.

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The second i have only seen on high ranked guild teams and some 'random' teams that just beat us in seconds.
There is no indication of spike or just one a split second before the spike

Tell me of one of these teams you face. I'd just like to know how our opinion differs.

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I've done a couple of runs with my powerblock mesmer and it takes a lot of pressure away when you can shut down one or two opponents.

Of course but still, the monks should be able to prot/heal the spikes. Especially over this weekend. None of them have been that bad.

Randomway Ftw · Apr 01, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

In the latter part of your post you have said the opposition is not always in a good position to disrupt or put pressure on the team; therefore, you've contradicted yourself to before, no? Since I said for the first few spikes one should rely on the monks.

In a sense yes, since it may take a couple spikes for your shutdown characters to locate the key characters on there team you must rely on monks, it leaves you very vulnerable to a good spike team. It's not really a contradiction just a small exception.

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It's a massive indication, but it's seen as a small one by weaker players. I've played with a lot of different rank and ability this weekend. I heard some guy saying 'infuse can't catch that' etc. When it could be infused.

Bad players can't infuse bloodspike, so what do you expect? Remember that its also the prot monks fault for not preprotting the target, it could be the fault as well for not disrupting the spike/applying pressure (if you run boa/fire eleway you deserve to lose because your build lacks utility), if the team is inexperienced they may not have the right equipment, and be running around with low health, and no shield on casters.

I Brother Bloood I · Apr 01, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

randomway..............

You're talking about monking experience like uve actually been a monk... When u haven't.(Or havent much) I'm not saying Lucia's opinion is any better but ur just saying a bunch of bs. This all has to do with a perfect spike which almost NEVER HAPPENS! Most of the time you can catch the spike before or since its not perfect when the person is at around 1/4 hp. random you have to factor in everything. Pressure on the team, nrg problems, pre protting, and the target health. Dude a perfect spike almost never happens. Go monk ha for the week. Then come back and tell us what happens when u use ur idea of preventing a spike.(Well in your opinion ur saying more a spike cant be prevented) And dont quote me telling me how to monk if u dont even run it.

Plus we getting really off topic here tbh. >_>

Randomway Ftw · Apr 01, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

randomway..............

You're talking about monking experience like uve actually been a monk... When u haven't.(Or havent much) I'm not saying Lucia's opinion is any better but ur just saying a bunch of bs. This all has to do with a perfect spike which almost NEVER HAPPENS! Most of the time you can catch the spike before or since its not perfect when the person is at around 1/4 hp. random you have to factor in everything. Pressure on the team, nrg problems, pre protting, and the target health. Dude a perfect spike almost never happens. Go monk ha for the week. Then come back and tell us what happens when u use ur idea of preventing a spike.(Well in your opinion ur saying more a spike cant be prevented) And dont quote me telling me how to monk if u dont even run it.

Plus we getting really off topic here tbh. >_>

Whether or not I play monk is irrelevant. I have stated the agreed upon way that spikes should be dealt with. I'd like to see you infuse an obflame spike that's not protted, a spike does not have to perfect to kill the target, it just has to be decent.

It is not just up to the monks to stop a spike, it is up to the entire team. I do use that idea of preventing a spike and it's succesfull, because that's how you should stop spikes.

elektra_lucia · Apr 01, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

The more you monk your reactions change and you see things differently. That was my point about when I used to play melee. I saw spikes as super fast, but the truth is they wern't super fast. I just had a twisted perception of it. I'm kind of giving up on the topic really. Perfect really does not happen often. If it does your as equally likely to get some random infuse.

Perfection is unlikely when pings in game and in voice programs fluctuate (sp?).

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Bad players can't infuse bloodspike, so what do you expect?

It was icy vein spike and you completely missed the point. I'm not saying whether he could or could not infuse it. I'm saying, he actually out right said it was uninfuseable. E.G. He thought no infuser could infuse it...

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it could be the fault as well for not disrupting the spike/applying pressure

I said you should be able to rely on the monks. I never said whos fault it was.

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In a sense yes, since it may take a couple spikes for your shutdown characters to locate the key characters on there team you must rely on monks, it leaves you very vulnerable to a good spike team. It's not really a contradiction just a small exception.

It's a contradiction. I also purposely said the first FEW spikes. I never said you should rely on the monks the WHOLE match.

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I'd like to see you infuse an obflame spike that's not protted

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It is not just up to the monks to stop a spike

So that's what I've been doing wrong. Having a monk, prot. Tut... Thanks for your advice.

W/Mo is back to basics. :].

erk · Apr 01, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Supposedly skill update is coming. Soul reaping abuse has to stop once and for all

Soul Reaping is important in other parts of GW so it should be left alone. If there is a problem with energy from spirits nerf them instead, or include spirit counter skills in the next skill release.

Arkantos · Apr 01, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

Whoa whoa wait, there weren't a whole bunch of r3 noobs before this weekend? Or r6 noobs, or r9 noobs?

Yeah, you're one of them.

<3

FoxBat · Apr 01, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

One thing you need to keep in mind about HA is that you can find a lot of bad teams there. Ensign would advise "prepare for the worst" I.E. tune yourself to beat the best teams, but maybe that's not so relevant in HA where you can survive 2-ways from bad teams on kill counts/HoH and hold halls a few times before sheer luck kicks you out. For example if you take mantra of flame at all as you suggested in another post, that strongly indicates what kind of players you are optimizing against.

Lord Mendes · Apr 01, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Soul Reaping is important in other parts of GW so it should be left alone. If there is a problem with energy from spirits nerf them instead, or include spirit counter skills in the next skill release.

]
Post in riverside province imo.

elektra_lucia · Apr 02, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

One thing you need to keep in mind about HA is that you can find a lot of bad teams there. Ensign would advise "prepare for the worst" I.E. tune yourself to beat the best teams, but maybe that's not so relevant in HA where you can survive 2-ways from bad teams on kill counts/HoH and hold halls a few times before sheer luck kicks you out. For example if you take mantra of flame at all as you suggested in another post, that strongly indicates what kind of players you are optimizing against.

It certainly does.

GVG has a lot of bad teams. I mean if you think how many guilds that GVG there are and how many of those are good. It's few few.Oh and I was optimizing against Meow and people running that kind of stuff.

I know they must have made like 1.5k from that build - so it clearly worked for them. I am just not into running things like that over and over. I wouldn't call a rank 13 guild 'bad'.

Of course there is going to be a lot of bad teams though. Everything any person does, on average - they're bad at it. It's only a very few who are good at anything, ever. Be it cooking, swimming, painting, rifle shooting. Most people are bad at most things. So the 'HA has bad teams'. Of course it will have. Just like anything else.

Some people run lame builds to get fame (and a double fame weekend influences them more) - they arn't always 'bad' players because of it.

Quote:

Soul Reaping is important in other parts of GW so it should be left alone. If there is a problem with energy from spirits nerf them instead, or include spirit counter skills in the next skill release.

Do you PVP at all? If this phrase was relating to PVE can you suggest a place where soul reaping is important in another part of the game and the skill bar (all 8 skills) you'd be using? Just be interested to see if you thought of soul reaping as the only energy management needed. Which seems a bit unfair, considering a monk has none (unless you use skills).

God Apprentice · Apr 02, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

It was icy vein spike and you completely missed the point. I'm not saying whether he could or could not infuse it. I'm saying, he actually out right said it was uninfuseable. E.G. He thought no infuser could infuse it...

I lol'd at that. I must be cheating then I caught lots of those this weekend

ayame ftw · Apr 02, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

K, anyone who honestly makes a thread like this deserves to die. 8v8 has been back for less than 24 hours, give time for the meta to balance out before going "ZOMG THIS BUILD ARE BR0K3N!!!ONE1.1ONE!". Let people figure out what to run, then roll. A good balanced still owns anything.

in GvG yes
in Ha No

the_jos · Apr 02, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Thank you elektra_lucia for taking time to reply.

Im going to put all your replies in one quote:

Quote:

ZB sucks. Also in my opinion its preventing new players to learn to prot well. They see it as a big heal and their eyes light up.
....
It's a massive indication, but it's seen as a small one by weaker players. I've played with a lot of different rank and ability this weekend. I heard some guy saying 'infuse can't catch that' etc. When it could be infused.
...
Tell me of one of these teams you face. I'd just like to know how our opinion differs.

You left out a small but important piece out when you quoted me. I already said: "I'm not anywere near any good HA and I know that."

Now I will give you some reply.
First of all, since I'm new I run the builds the leader asks me to run.
On Saturday, I've only LoD/Infused. On Sunday, my last few runs were on ZB, requested by the leader.
I don't like the heal, since it's my job as prot to prevent that kind of heal.
But the leader requested ZB (besides LoD and possible RC), so I play ZB.
At this moment, both wins and losses add experience and I'm always trying to figure out what went wrong (or ok).

The other part is probably due to my 'not being anywere near any good HA'.
The teams I'm referring to were mostly necro spike that push forward fast so about 4 or 5 players are in their spike range.
This also has to do with the teams I was in, but for me it's impossible to tell which is the target they will spike.
I also know not all spikes were perfect, I was able to get PS (when running ZB) on target a couple of times. Which also means I could have infused as LoD. But some spikes were from full health to none in a blink of an eye.
Perhaps you as more experienced player could have catched that, but for me it's determining who's getting spiked, select, prot / infuse.
In case of infuse not too soon and not too late.
Pre-prot could have saved, but then I lack the experience to determine who will get the spike.

I don't know if the 'perfect' spike exists.
I think, when it exists, the 'perfect' save also exist.
Where the monks are able to determine the spike target and save him/her.
But for me, at the moment, there are spikes I cannot imagine to catch.
Perhaps with 20 months PvP monk experience, but that's a long time from now.

alphawarrlord · Apr 02, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascendant

Have you ever ran into Consume Chicken elektra? If you have then you would know how faulty that statement is. They run a perfectly timed 3 man spike using Chilling Victory and Aura of Displacement. With only 3 people, it is much easier to execute a perfect spike. Sure, you get a clear cut sign of 3 Dervishes popping out of nowhere, but are you willing to bet your life that you can determine which target they're planning to attack within the next 1/2 second? (Giving margins for lag + Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond Cast time.). This is not like Infuse where you are certain of which target they're attacking. If you preprot the wrong target, whoever they're spiking will die. Infuse is not an option here because the target goes from full health to zero EVERY SINGLE TIME (Unless of course they mess up, which happens occasionally). In a map like Broken Tower or the Courtyard where you're constantly moving, you have absolutely no time to react before they kill another target. Perfect Spikes aren't a myth, they're more common than what you would like to believe.

I wouldn't say perfect i managed to infuse 8 spikes but then i got distracted by a mosquito and bam! spirit bond there would have been awesome

PST: If u want to test ur infuse/spirit bond reaction times go here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/
my reaction time was 1.5 sec

Detraya fullvear · Apr 02, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

im sorry, spikes aren't really that big of a deal, its all the damn splinter weapon r/d scythe weilders that are a pain XD, also, soul reaping is broke atm, unlimited energy healers ftw. (if soul reaping was unbroke, the meta whould improve 10fold. spikes aren't really an issue. invokes just plain funny imo)

also, interupts > spikes

LifesRestorer · Apr 02, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

also, interrupts > spirits = no energy or prot for their backline. gg

Morgoth the dark · Apr 02, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Soul Reaping is important in other parts of GW so it should be left alone. If there is a problem with energy from spirits nerf them instead, or include spirit counter skills in the next skill release.

How can you get energy from spirits (wich are i guess not mortal beings) and SR says you get energy when a creature dies?
You should not get ANY energy from spirits.
And how would they nerf spirit in case of SR?

Agnostic · Apr 02, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphawarrlord

PST: If u want to test ur infuse/spirit bond reaction times go here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/
my reaction time was 1.5 sec

lol. funny link. i got rocketing rabbit. but i didn't feel like one trying to infuse the icy veins spike. the difference is that i could see the sheep moving; the red bars, however, just seemed to change color. felt like i was playing on dial-up.

seems to me that the main problem was the crazy amount of healing they had from HB-SR and spirt spamming. when there is so much free healing, they don't have to kite or do much of anything but set up spikes. i wish i had as many arms as vishnu and the reflexes of the karate kid, but i ended up trying to anticipate (and failed). then guess who the next target was...