Curse

Loot Junkie · Mar 31, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Yeah Thomas, and when SR does get fixed the way it should be, then everybody who was abusing it instead of developing actual skills will be QQing about how anet "ruined" their fame farming imba build lol. The other thing that is broken, at least imo, is Healer's Boon itself. The whole idea of placing an elite skill in the primary attribute section of a character class is to restrict it's usage to that class and keep it from being used by other classes. The whole idea of the HB necro is a cheat, in that it uses 2 very nice items (SR and HB) from 2 different primary attributes and combines them, something that should not be possible in this game. How is it that HB is totally usable with zero points in divine favor(works on 10 healing prayers spells at zero DF)? With a cost of 5E, 1/4 casting time and a fairly quick recharge who cares, just recast it a few times per match. There is no way that a non-healing class should be able to make monks obsolete in HA the way the HB necro has. Not only does anet have to fix the broken SR mechanic, they have to make HB actually require points in divine favor in order to use it. Wake up anet, and make HA respectable again.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 31, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Wrong.
1) Pre prot. If they gaze - then you know who is going to be spiked.

Wrong, a properly timed gaze will come in at less than 1/4 of a second before the spike. What would be the point of making an obvious animation appear over a target that is basicly like saying "incoming spike, preprot plx".

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2) Just as it's possible to magically get a perfectly timed spike. It's possible to get a perfect infuse. No?

A perfecly timed spike will result in the targets bar going from red to grey instanly, but all that has to happen for a spike to be uninfusable is for it to occur in less that 1/4 a second (a bit more than that because humans cannot react instantly).

You cannot and should not require only your monks, and certainly not only your infuser to deal with a spike, it is up to the others characters to pressure and disrupt the spike as much as possible

Thom · Mar 31, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

The noobs are out in force.

1) A monk can't catch a perfect spike, you really need to mitigate a spike to the point were it can be caught. A monk that gets cute trying to preprot and anticipate infuses will eventually get abused by a good spike team.

2)Key to winning against spikes hasn't changed: disrupt the damage, rez/recover quickly and pressure them into playing defensively.

3)The problem is when you can't pressure through their defense because they have defensive spirits and endless energy. You can't really spike through damage due to spirits and the danger of giving up deaths when you're trying to spike. You need to kill defense AND spike stop, which means 8 guys have to be playing solid Guild Wars across a few different targets.

4)If you don't have eight solid players, you're better off running your own spike and hope you have a better target caller and healing.

5)While everyone was poo-pooing 6v6, it was easy to forget the advantages. The game is much easier to break at the 8v8 level then at 6v6. 64 skills allow teams to have a "skill response" to everything. 48 skills meant that most builds had a weak point or was stretched to cover all its bases. 8v8 means we have more machine builds fully exploiting anything broken.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Mar 31, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Am I the only one having trouble packing utility characters or interrupters into a build when I have to be able to mow stuff down fast in killcount?

manitoba1073 · Mar 31, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

as long as the 8v8 that you all wanted back nomatter what happens. lol i rember those posts. nice to see everyone enjoying it.

Vermilion · Mar 31, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

Played a certain notorious iway guild....and sure enough RaO Warriors.

I faced MATH running RaO wars last 8v8 weekend, its not better.

Solveig Ikram · Mar 31, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

What the hell, is everyone always going to rag about the meta being broken or this and that skill needs to be nerfed anytime their gimmick build fails against another gimmick build?
C'mon ppl it's a thinking game figure something out. If all else fails run the exact same build as the supposedly uber-pwnage build and then finally PvP will be based on playing skill.

zakaria · Apr 01, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Wrong.
1) Pre prot. If they gaze - then you know who is going to be spiked.

Perfect spike:
1- all spikers use auto attack on different targets while kiting.
2- only the caller who will ping the target.
3- rest of spikers will press T when they hear their caller say "2" while they still auto attack different dummy targets.
4- don't ever make your caller no.1 in party window, hide him in between.

elektra_lucia · Apr 01, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Wrong, a properly timed gaze will come in at less than 1/4 of a second before the spike. What would be the point of making an obvious animation appear over a target that is basicly like saying "incoming spike, preprot plx".

A perfecly timed spike will result in the targets bar going from red to grey instanly, but all that has to happen for a spike to be uninfusable is for it to occur in less that 1/4 a second (a bit more than that because humans cannot react instantly).

You cannot and should not require only your monks, and certainly not only your infuser to deal with a spike, it is up to the others characters to pressure and disrupt the spike as much as possible

I spoke to someone from you're guild. I learnt a bit about you - and one being you never monk. Please stop talking rubbish. You know nothing about monking.

I personally spent all night rc protting with spirit bond vs spikes. You are -wrong-. You can prot vs them. Perfectly timed spikes are partly luck (due to vent and in game lag perfect is hard to come by) and just as you can get the luck to perfectly time a spike you could get the same luck perfectly timing a spirit bond and/or infuse.

In addition they might look at the person they're spiking, all make similar casting animation. If you've played the caller of a spike, you're more likely to know who they're going to try to spike.

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for a spike to be uninfusable is for it to occur in less that 1/4 a second

Wrong. Just as it can be perfectly timed, you could get a lucky infuse. You know how if you think you know when a caster is going to cast prot spirit, and you can interupt it with dblow from timing? Well, you can do the exact same with infusing.

Sure it's luck, but so is a perfect spike.

Quote:

You cannot and should not require only your monks, and certainly not only your infuser to deal with a spike, it is up to the others characters to pressure and disrupt the spike as much as possible

Of course; however, for the first two spikes (maybe more) - your monks should be able to completely deal with the spikes alone.

The spike itself may be perfect but to get that straight after gaze on perfect timing with some players pinging 150 + - in vent and in game. Meh :].

I've also seen some peoples idea of perfect. Same idea I have for crap. So...

Randomway Ftw · Apr 01, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I spoke to someone from you're guild. I learnt a bit about you - and one being you never monk. Please stop talking rubbish. You know nothing about monking.

I personally spent all night rc protting with spirit bond vs spikes. You are -wrong-. You can prot vs them. Perfectly timed spikes are partly luck (due to vent and in game lag perfect is hard to come by) and just as you can get the luck to perfectly time a spike you could get the same luck perfectly timing a spirit bond and/or infuse.

I'll tell you why you were able to get a spirit bond on the target, they were bad and gave the spike away, If its a perfect spike you will not know which target is being spiked until the target is dead. A perfect spike it a spike that is not preprotted and not disrupted to a sufficient amount.

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In addition they might look at the person they're spiking, all make similar casting animation. If you've played the caller of a spike, you're more likely to know who they're going to try to spike.

That is the way that a spik should be pre protted, but it is not always possible, because of people standing too close together, and the monk not always being able to tell the target, and don't forget enchant removal.

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Wrong. Just as it can be perfectly timed, you could get a lucky infuse. You know how if you think you know when a caster is going to cast prot spirit, and you can interupt it with dblow from timing? Well, you can do the exact same with infusing.

A perfect spike will result in the a unprotted targets health going from full to zero in less than the cast time of infuse.

Quote:

Of course; however, for the first two spikes (maybe more) - your monks should be able to completely deal with the spikes alone.

The spike itself may be perfect but to get that straight after gaze on perfect timing with some players pinging 150 + - in vent and in game. Meh :].

You shouldn't rely on your monks to stop a real spike by themselves ( except for bspike, but that's not a real spike) because they can't, while your monks should be able to preprott and infuse some undisrupted spikes, it is up to the rest of the team to make more of the spikes easier to deal with through pressure, shutdown, and disruption.

In order to get a gaze at the right time, all you need to do is practice for a few times, and get used to the ping with your team in isle of the nameless.

Divineshadows · Apr 01, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

You shouldn't rely on your monks to stop a real spike by themselves ( except for bspike, but that's not a real spike) because they can't, while your monks should be able to preprott and infuse some undisrupted spikes, it is up to the rest of the team to make more of the spikes easier to deal with through pressure, shutdown, and disruption.

I'm in shock. Randomway posting something intelligent. Must be an April Fool's joke, but I'd be happy to see it become a trend.

elektra_lucia · Apr 01, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

I'll tell you why you were able to get a spirit bond on the target, they were bad and gave the spike away, If its a perfect spike you will not know which target is being spiked until the target is dead. A perfect spike it a spike that is not preprotted and not disrupted to a sufficient amount.

Perfect does not really exist. Also you might want to find out what spike means. If a players health drops from full to 0 instantly and they enchant remove one second before the spike. Technically the spike itself is perfect.

The preperation of the spike is not perfect, the spike itself is perfect.

Regardless of this (and I'm just being awkward there) - it is possible for them to enchant remove and spike at a quicker time than the infuse can cast; however, it is ALSO possible for you to still be able to infuse it. Just as you can interupt prot spirit with dblow.

Quote:

That is the way that a spik should be pre protted, but it is not always possible, because of people standing too close together, and the monk not always being able to tell the target, and don't forget enchant removal.

Enchant removal is a friend sometimes.

Quote:

A perfect spike will result in the a unprotted targets health going from full to zero in less than the cast time of infuse.

It's still luck if it's a perfect spike. You don't seem to understand. The time it takes for prot spirit to cast compared to the time of your brain interupting + the time it takes to use distract blow. Technically you should not be able to interupt prot spirit, yes? This is not the case. Sometimes you can get plane lucky or you can time it and know when to interupt.

Just as you can do this with dblow or say PD - you can infuse a perfect spike by "luck". Since perfect happens rarely and is usually by plain luck, an infuse casted just at the right time could be luck.

Quote:

You shouldn't rely on your monks to stop a real spike by themselves ( except for bspike, but that's not a real spike) because they can't, while your monks should be able to preprott and infuse some undisrupted spikes, it is up to the rest of the team to make more of the spikes easier to deal with through pressure, shutdown, and disruption.

What I said stands.

Quote:

I'm in shock. Randomway posting something intelligent. Must be an April Fool's joke, but I'd be happy to see it become a trend.

What do you expect? I mean, I know rank isn't everything but the guy is like rank1. He has sod all monking experience. Maybe he has experience with spike and enchant removal (now that would NOT surprise me). :].

Before when I played melee only I used to see spikes on the team as really fast and pretty much perfect. I remember asking stoned (guy from Bus and NO I did not get loads of fame from IWAY >.>) about the spike and saying it was fast; therefore, no need to bash on the monks. He said the spike was really slow and predictable. The point being, because I had not been used to monking, I just plain judged things wrongly. I know I'm not the first to have done that either. I've had people in my team say the same to me.

Maybe you think you've seen a perfect spike before 'randomway ftw'; however, I think you never actually have.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Apr 01, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

I've seen a perfect spike once or twice, full to zero instantly. However, I don't think "guessing" on an infuse is something most people do... while it's possible, a monk losing half their health for possibly not the correct infuse target is not something I would recommend.

ZenRgy · Apr 01, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Whoa whoa wait, there weren't a whole bunch of r3 noobs before this weekend? Or r6 noobs, or r9 noobs?

WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME!?

Randomway Ftw · Apr 01, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Perfect does not really exist. Also you might want to find out what spike means. If a players health drops from full to 0 instantly and they enchant remove one second before the spike. Technically the spike itself is perfect.

That's moronic, why would you want to give away a spike target by giving the monk a long time to pre prot the target.

Quote:

Regardless of this (and I'm just being awkward there) - it is possible for them to enchant remove and spike at a quicker time than the infuse can cast; however, it is ALSO possible for you to still be able to infuse it. Just as you can interupt prot spirit with dblow.

It may be possible, but it sure as hell isn't reliable.

Quote:

Enchant removal is a friend sometimes.

That's why it needs to be used properly.

Quote:

It's still luck if it's a perfect spike. You don't seem to understand. The time it takes for prot spirit to cast compared to the time of your brain interupting + the time it takes to use distract blow. Technically you should not be able to interupt prot spirit, yes? This is not the case. Sometimes you can get plane lucky or you can time it and know when to interupt.

Its irrelevant whether or not its possible, all that matters is if you can reliably stop spikes like this.

Quote:

Just as you can do this with dblow or say PD - you can infuse a perfect spike by "luck". Since perfect happens rarely and is usually by plain luck, an infuse casted just at the right time could be luck.

Also irrelevant.

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What I said stands.

No it doesn't, everything I said goes with the general consensus of the entire PvP community.

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What do you expect? I mean, I know rank isn't everything but the guy is like rank1. He has sod all monking experience. Maybe he has experience with spike and enchant removal (now that would NOT surprise me). :].

Why when your point gets shot down do you need to resort to personal attacks, especialy personal attacks that aren't true.

Quote:

Before when I played melee only I used to see spikes on the team as really fast and pretty much perfect. I remember asking stoned (guy from Bus and NO I did not get loads of fame from IWAY >.>) about the spike and saying it was fast; therefore, no need to bash on the monks. He said the spike was really slow and predictable. The point being, because I had not been used to monking, I just plain judged things wrongly. I know I'm not the first to have done that either. I've had people in my team say the same to me.

It seems like you are in denial about the mechanics of this game, and how you should stop a spike, the fact is that relying on your monks is the absolute wrong way to go. It never ceases to amaze me that some one who is supposedly experienced at this game can get things so wrong.

Ascendant · Apr 01, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Perfect does not really exist.

Have you ever ran into Consume Chicken elektra? If you have then you would know how faulty that statement is. They run a perfectly timed 3 man spike using Chilling Victory and Aura of Displacement. With only 3 people, it is much easier to execute a perfect spike. Sure, you get a clear cut sign of 3 Dervishes popping out of nowhere, but are you willing to bet your life that you can determine which target they're planning to attack within the next 1/2 second? (Giving margins for lag + Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond Cast time.). This is not like Infuse where you are certain of which target they're attacking. If you preprot the wrong target, whoever they're spiking will die. Infuse is not an option here because the target goes from full health to zero EVERY SINGLE TIME (Unless of course they mess up, which happens occasionally). In a map like Broken Tower or the Courtyard where you're constantly moving, you have absolutely no time to react before they kill another target. Perfect Spikes aren't a myth, they're more common than what you would like to believe.

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Apr 01, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

Whoa whoa wait, there weren't a whole bunch of r3 noobs before this weekend? Or r6 noobs, or r9 noobs?

WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME!?

Bible - 1 Guru Forums - 0

elektra_lucia · Apr 01, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

I've seen a perfect spike once or twice, full to zero instantly. However, I don't think "guessing" on an infuse is something most people do... while it's possible, a monk losing half their health for possibly not the correct infuse target is not something I would recommend.

Of course it's not something I'd recommend. People all make the same casting animation though, so spikes can be seen.

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That's moronic, why would you want to give away a spike target by giving the monk a long time to pre prot the target.

Wouldn't, that wasn't my point. You didn't read it all.

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It may be possible, but it sure as hell isn't reliable.

Of course it isn't reliable. Sure it's possible. Perfect spikes don't happen often either. So it's no more or less reliable. I've seen them both equally actually.

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Its irrelevant whether or not its possible, all that matters is if you can reliably stop spikes like this.

Why would it be imperative you'd need to be reliable at stopping perfect spikes? They're so rare. I've seen hmm. maybe one or two perfect spikes in like - 22 months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektra

What I said stands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway

No it doesn't, everything I said goes with the general consensus of the entire PvP community.

That comment was refering to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektra

Of course; however, for the first two spikes (maybe more) - your monks should be able to completely deal with the spikes alone.

The spike itself may be perfect but to get that straight after gaze on perfect timing with some players pinging 150 + - in vent and in game. Meh :].

I've also seen some peoples idea of perfect. Same idea I have for crap. So...

I know many people who'd agree with this.

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Why when your point gets shot down do you need to resort to personal attacks, especialy personal attacks that aren't true.

I said rank1 as an exageration; however, the bit about you not monking was true. I thought you'd be smart enough to realise that. I would quote the first two words from your post - to insult you. Then again, maybe you'd be trying to claim the moral high ground; in addition, I don't need to resort to personal attacks. What's more, I don't see that my points have been shot down.

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It seems like you are in denial about the mechanics of this game, and how you should stop a spike, the fact is that relying on your monks is the absolute wrong way to go. It never ceases to amaze me that some one who is supposedly experienced at this game can get things so wrong.

I don't think I claimed to be experienced. Regardless, perfect spikes arn't frequent; in addition, I said you should rely on your monks for the first few spikes.

I still agree with this.

Quote:

Have you ever ran into Consume Chicken elektra? If you have then you would know how faulty that statement is. They run a perfectly timed 3 man spike using Chilling Victory and Aura of Displacement. With only 3 people, it is much easier to execute a perfect spike. Sure, you get a clear cut sign of 3 Dervishes popping out of nowhere, but are you willing to bet your life that you can determine which target they're planning to attack within the next 1/2 second? (Giving margins for lag + Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond Cast time.). This is not like Infuse where you are certain of which target they're attacking. If you preprot the wrong target, whoever they're spiking will die. Infuse is not an option here because the target goes from full health to zero EVERY SINGLE TIME (Unless of course they mess up, which happens occasionally). In a map like Broken Tower or the Courtyard where you're constantly moving, you have absolutely no time to react before they kill another target. Perfect Spikes aren't a myth, they're more common than what you would like to believe.

Yes. I have monked for them, Chamalee kept bugging me to join their Alliance. So I asked Monkey to join their Alliance and he said no. Stuff happened with iA(they're playing with a new name, Larp) then I went guildless. Bunneh later invited me to CC. I had an argument with Chamalee. He kicked me due to not talking on mic. My argument was this :

I did not need to call dazed on mic. He interupted me and called me an idiot basically. So I later explained.

At that time I was the healer with draw, I drew (drawed?) conditions from the RC monk; therefore, the RC would know (as he had dazed) I would then have dazed. I found this very basic logic and for a Rank12 to not know a thing about monking. I was quite shocked, needless to say I spoke to him like a royal retard (which from my point of view he is).

For your information by the way, the spike you talk of - the players were in different locations and their pings to vent differed quite a bit. The spike wasn't perfect by the way. I'm shocked anyone would think it was. This just goes to prove my point really, lol.

P.S. A lot of you might want to check what your idea of a perfect spike is.

Randomway Ftw · Apr 01, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Of course it isn't reliable. Sure it's possible. Perfect spikes don't happen often either. So it's no more or less reliable. I've seen them both equally actually.

Its irrelevant whether or not the spike is perfect, what's relevant is its preventable or not. A spike is meant to completley bypass the monks, if done correctly the monks will not know the target until its too late. It is your whole teams job to deal with the spike, not just the monks, relying on your monks to stop undisrupted spikes is a recipe for failure.

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I know many people who'd agree with this.

You seem to thinks its hard to time a gaze of contempt with a spike and to easily kill targets, its not, in fact its pathetically easy. it is unnecessary for a spike to be perfect to kill a target, it just needs to be not protted at reasonably on time, there is no way that the infuser can infuse a spike without guessing if the target is not known, its always funny to see the infuser infise the wrong guy, then get spiked himself. pre-emption and disruption are usefull tools against a spike, not reaction.

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I don't think I claimed to be experienced. Regardless, perfect spikes arn't frequent; in addition, I said you should rely on your monks for the first few spikes.

If the spike team is good, you'll end up with two deaths, until you can pressure them, or disrupt them enough.

elektra_lucia · Apr 01, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Its irrelevant whether or not the spike is perfect, what's relevant is its preventable or not. A spike is meant to completley bypass the monks, if done correctly the monks will not know the target until its too late. It is your whole teams job to deal with the spike, not just the monks, relying on your monks to stop undisrupted spikes is a recipe for failure.

Going around in circles here. I've already made my point on this.

Quote:

You seem to thinks its hard to time a gaze of contempt with a spike and to easily kill targets, its not, in fact its pathetically easy. it is unnecessary for a spike to be perfect to kill a target, it just needs to be not protted at reasonably on time, there is no way that the infuser can infuse a spike without guessing if the target is not known, its always funny to see the infuser infise the wrong guy, then get spiked himself. pre-emption and disruption are usefull tools against a spike, not reaction.

I've never been in a team (unless I've personally asked for aegis to be up) where the monks have put a yellow arrow on everything. The times I have asked for aegis to be up for the yellow arrows and looked at it going down. The spike wasn't anywhere near as perfect as one might assume.

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If the spike team is good, you'll end up with two deaths, until you can pressure them, or disrupt them enough.

For the first two spikes I disagree. Plus the monks will be high on energy to save them.

Repeat - play monk a bit. Check what your idea of perfect is. I think we're talking about two seperate things.