Curse

Xenex Xclame · Mar 25, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Consider buffing other skills. Mirror is disenchantment could use an energy cost reduction from 25 to 15. At 10 second recharge, it would be a pretty interesting overall enchant removal. Warrior's Cunning can get a recharge cut in half, and a duration boost from 10 seconds maxed to 15. 10 energy is a lot for a Warrior.

In the meantime, try using Gryphon's Sweep, Leviathan's Sweep, or even Irresistable Blow.

So you basicly say because there are counters and making other skills powerfull will make aegis problem disapear,yes it might but that will mean that other skills will become the ones we say are the (too) powerfull ones.

HolyHawk · Mar 25, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Because of aegis.

I'd have to disagree. Hexes represent a bit threat if teams are not properlly equiped with veils and purge signets. Hexes would be "better" since they also do somthing to your enemy, and unlike aegis, not only to yourself. Hexes are actually a problem; even if you try to build something around nature renewal, smart hexes teams have quick ways to kill the spirit right away. If you want to go for a full melee team, you should be well aware that blind, snares and blocking will be the biggest threat. You can work around interrupts, and perhaps use the help of a secondary.

Also think like this, you dedicate your team to hexes, and you fight against divert, who can actually manage to not stay disabled, is it divert's fault your hexes are not working properly? Shouldn't the hex team bring solutions for this case? It works the same way for melee teams. Oh no! they got shield of deflection, and we got tons of dmg that never get to hit. Of course they do, they pictured the situation before. I still vote for a 3 seconds casting, with fixed blocking rate and duration, at least to encourage interruption. I won't opine on glyph because it's more complicated that it sounds. Glyph oppened the way to many builds become manageable, and not only monks, but specially. Aegis just got to fit in most of them.

Shane Postus · Mar 25, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

OMFG you owned me because i didnt bring monks! this game is imba! why should i bring healing and prot just because you have dmg its buildwars!1!!one!1shift!11! etc etc

First of all: kudos to who coined the term Buildwars. Its catchy, sums up the problems of what was (is?) happening in 6v6 HA, and has become a thoughtless cry for every person who doesnt bring a counter to anything.

This game is buildwars. if my build cant counter your melee i lose. if my build cant counter your casters i lose. if my build cant outdamage your heals, i lose. The term build wars refers to what happens when not all counters can be put into one build to counter another so the result is everytime you hit that build you lose 100% of the time. We're not in Buildwars atm (from what i can see). people have made some pretty nice semi-balanced builds... although 8v8 would still be nice to have back. Enchantments are a big part of the game. every build will have them. just because you dont bring enchant removal doesnt me enchants are imba.

Aegis is strong... for the first 13 seconds. and if its aegis chain its strong for the first 26 seconds. This i admit. After that, if you cant interupt a 2 second cast when you KNOW its going to be coming soon (you should know cause their enchant will be down for a few secs) then you should uninstall. The only time an aegis should get off is if a monk dies, is rezzed and casts aegis before anyone sees hes back up. BTW, did you ever think that melee pressure is too strong to force monks to go to such drastic measures as packing 2 copies of a 15e 2sec 30 rech skill? Cause it happened before the GoLE thing i assure you. When a melee char has better pressure, spike potential, armor, and non-energy DPS than the dmg class in the game i think something may be wrong with them. I can honestly say as a rather experienced monk that out of my top 5 most bitter enemies in HA, 4 are melee. (damn you mesmers... #3)

On the issue of gole... its strong, but only in conjunction of ZB (which is like an exploit really). In the case of aegis thats what the skill was meant for. You sacrfice your secondary for that one skill... it should be worth it.

AusEqualsFtw · Mar 25, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

It's how the game works...

1. Awesome Build is made
2. People milk it until it's considered "noob"
3. Anet Nerfs it
4. Cycle repeats

Div · Mar 25, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Aegis really isn't that powered. It has a 2 second cast, which makes it easy to interrupt, most teams bring enchantment removal, diversion, and even gale can stop an aegis chain. Sure, a monk running back to cast aegis is going to be harder to interrupt, but in the process he's wasted many seconds of his time and given up his position just to get the spell off. In a split situation, aegis becomes even less powerful, as it affects a lot less party members. Also, remember that taking GoLE completely makes the monk's secondary useless besides that, and they lose out on a lot of self defense they could've had going /A or /W. If you're referring to aegis in GvG's, it's definitely not build wars, since if you don't know how to split or counter with better tactics, then you shouldn't be playing this game. If you're referring to HA, the playing field is so small that it makes interrupting fairly easy, and it's one of the only good ways to stop a 3 thumper team from destroying your mid/backline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Think back to the old tournaments. A guild with skills was possible to win games even with a crappy build. Necro raiders used a freaking meleemancer. However, lately it's been moving towards Buildwars. You need something, otherwise you can't win. You need this, otherwise you'll lose.

Aegis is part of this formula. Since so many guilds run this skill, a lot of freedom in build making is lost. Because everybody needs to pack enchant removal, you need at least 1 mesmer, and mesmers aren't cool.

A guild with good skills is still possible to win with a less than perfect build now. Have you been observing what's going on in GvGs? Also, the fact that so many guilds run this skill makes it "meta" and not necessarily unbalanced. Also, enchantment removal doesn't have to be in the form of mesmers, since dervishes and sins have a decent way of removing enchantments too. Why don't you try running a 4-4 split, and see how good their aegis is now? Just because people are running aegis doesn't mean that your creativity in build making is hindered...

Bankai · Mar 25, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Right here I think your point sorta gets mislead, of course enchantment removal removes enchantments. It is a general counter to "all enchantments" Aegis is not the "only enchantment". Should a general balanced build bring interrupts? Yes, do 90% of the gvg teams bring enchantments besides Aegis "yes". So enchantment removal should already be statutory. There really shouldn't be a question, the only way to make this point of "Build Wars" correct in my point. I also understand variety should be delt with, and this is the best way have as many general counters as possible and since enchantments are general purpose on most professions. I don't think enchantment removal should be a for or against argument. Its necessary.

Hmmm, I worded it a bit painful. What I was trying to say, was that it's perfectly possible to win from a normal team without enchant removal, but it's hard to win from an Aegis chain without enchant removal, especially if you're not running a ranger.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 25, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

A guild with good skills is still possible to win with a less than perfect build now. Have you been observing what's going on in GvGs? Also, the fact that so many guilds run this skill makes it "meta" and not necessarily unbalanced. Also, enchantment removal doesn't have to be in the form of mesmers, since dervishes and sins have a decent way of removing enchantments too. Why don't you try running a 4-4 split, and see how good their aegis is now? Just because people are running aegis doesn't mean that your creativity in build making is hindered...

Umm... from what I've seen, GvG basically consists of Hexes on Jade and Recall split...

Riotgear · Mar 25, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Ask your self this when you claim that Aegis is the problem, and not Glyph: Why did Aegis only become such a big issue after the Glyph buff.

Wild Blow wasn't a problem until Dervishes started using it. Is there really anything that GoLE is even close to broken on now other than Aegis? Another key event in Aegis becoming a "problem" was the shift towards using Mo/E flaggers, especially in the wake of the Gale nerf, which begs the question of whether people would still be using GoLE/Aegis even if Glyph were nerfed back to 1 spell.

Bankai · Mar 25, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Wild Blow wasn't a problem until Dervishes started using it. Is there really anything that GoLE is even close to broken on now other than Aegis?

Thank you.

While GoLE+Aegis is overpowered, I don't feel like GoLE is the problem.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 25, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Is there really anything that GoLE is even close to broken on now other than Aegis?

GoLE is broken because it is the most powerful non-elite energy management skill in the game, and requires no attribute investment at all, GoLE is even better than many elite emanagement skills.

The only reason people complain about GoLE + Aegis is because Aegis has a very obvious effect, warriors get pissed off when their attacks are blocked.

There is no excuse for ignoring the metagame, and refusing to counter Aegis.

Riotgear · Mar 25, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

GoLE is broken because it is the most powerful non-elite energy management skill in the game, and requires no attribute investment at all, GoLE is even better than many elite emanagement skills.

You're right, it is the best, because the alternatives suck. They suck because they got nerfed due to monk abuse, nerfs that took down a lot of potential builds with it. GoLE helps casters power out 10e abilities a lot more than it helps monks power out their staple 5e abilities, and it has to be used pre-emptively when monks tend to operate reactively, making it significantly less prone to abuse on monks than straight energy gain.

Please provide examples of how it can be abused, not how it is the best.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 25, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Aside from Aegis, Glyph can be abused with ZB, Healer's boon + heal party, extinguish. It is also very effective when used with any 10 or 15 energy spell.

Aegis is not imba, the thing that may be imba is GoLE. Aegis has been around in its current form for a long time and it was fine, no one complained until, in the past Aegis was a fragile prot, which was expensive on a monk and easy to disrupt. The only thing that that has changed since then is it is essentialy free since the buff to GoLE.

A short summary of this thread would be that people are pissed off that Aegis is hindering them, they refuse to change their build or tactics, then they cry for a nerf.

Blame the Monks · Mar 26, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Did you seriously try to argue gole + extinguish is overpowered?

nightrunner · Mar 26, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

I honestly don't know which is better, pre-nerf Grenth's dervs removing your enchants and stomping your monks, or monks chaining aegis and stomping your melee.

Riotgear · Mar 26, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Aegis is not imba, the thing that may be imba is GoLE.

It's a two-way relationship. Neither is particularly overpowered on its own, it's the combination of the two that creates a problem. Aegis was not overpowered when it was too expensive to cast without Prodigy or Soul Reaping covering the cost, that situation has changed, and in the current context, it may be a bit too strong, just as HP may be a bit too strong when you can afford to pack more than one copy of it.

I'd still strongly question it being overpowered when one skill that doesn't have difficulty fitting on your typical Me/E bar will demolish it.

Glyphed Extinguish is not overpowered. ZB is overpowered without GoLE.

Llint · Mar 26, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

IMO, I think its more or less anti melee hexes and the GoLE+aegis being like wtf pwnage. Thats not to say its not impossible to fight, but when you have AEGIS and ANTI MELEE hexes, and when all the enemies are running GOLE... It gets tiresome even running just two warriors.

And as others have said, its the fact that theres really no other good/decent e-management left ingame.

Shmanka · Mar 26, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

The way I see it, I would just reduce the duration on Aegis by half, and reduce the cooldown by 10 seconds. GoLE is not the problem IMO. Anet being having a hard on to nerf skills beyond usage in PvE or PvP is a bigger issue. If Energy Tap/Drain were still somewhat playable we wouldn't have this problem.

Bankai · Mar 26, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

The way I see it, I would just reduce the duration on Aegis by half, and reduce the cooldown by 10 seconds. GoLE is not the problem IMO. Anet being having a hard on to nerf skills beyond usage in PvE or PvP is a bigger issue. If Energy Tap/Drain were still somewhat playable we wouldn't have this problem.

That would also be pretty nice.

Xenex Xclame · Mar 26, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

So :
15/2/20
For 1...5 seconds, all party members have a 50% chance to block attacks.

Tell me how this is good?
I think you just missed the whole point of those discussion.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 26, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

This thread is going nowhere, it's like talking to brick walls. GoLE + Extinguish may not be overpowered, but if it was used the same way as Aegis is it would piss off a lot of condition pressure teams.

Learn to deal with RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Aegis.

I'm not posting in this stupid thread anymore.