Curse

skillsbas8 · Mar 29, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Just something some guildies were thinking of running:

http://gwshack.us/634da

Monk can be switched for whatever you like. Some guildies like frenzied, but I prefer /e for GoLE.

Pretty self explanatory spike

Just realize didn't rune the armor, pretty clear though (:

Divineshadows · Mar 29, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

AINSoKyk44vKnVbppjzbuMTuA

AxMREncVHzCYxocSKKGW+qAA

A1NBQF8AnogHYGo7yATwOgAA

ATMRDfMUnNd9YlcpnJhRSdNB

What is this? If this are references to templates created within Guild Wars I don't think we accept builds in that format (I'll have to check with another mod). The acceptable build formats AFAIK are gwshack and just simply listing all skills and attributes in text format.

skillsbas8 · Mar 29, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

my bad, was tired and wasn't thinking

All linked up

Divineshadows · Mar 29, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

my bad, was tired and wasn't thinking

All linked up

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

Just realize didn't rune the armor, pretty clear though (:

Please add the runes as well. The decision as to whether to use a single superior attribute runes, dual major attribute runes, a single major attribute rune, or all minors for each character in a TA build is one of the more important decisions to make during the design of TA builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

Some guildies like frenzied

It's a bad skill (inferior when compared directly to disciplined stance) and so is prot spirit (inferior when compared directly to spirit bond, ignoring 55 monks in PvE).

Neo-LD · Mar 30, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

It's a bad skill (inferior when compared directly to disciplined stance) and so is prot spirit (inferior when compared directly to spirit bond, ignoring 55 monks in PvE).

Compared to Frenzied Defense, Disciplined Stance lasts about half as long, recharges twice about as slow, grants some armor, requires a moderate tactics spec, and obviously doesnt have the double damage drawback.

Seems like there are too many variables at work to conclude that Frenzied Defense is directly inferior to Disciplined Stance. In actual practice, I've found Disciplined Stance to be pretty worthless (its duration, recharge, and required spec are all really dissapointing tbh). Frenzied Defense, on the other hand, has been pretty brilliant for me in many situations.

And while it is true that Spirit Bond is better than Prot Spirit on every other monk bar in TA, you run it on a monk with Frenzied Defense to limit it's drawback. Getting smacked with double damage from spells and lucky swings is no fun.

Divineshadows · Mar 30, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Compared to Frenzied Defense, Disciplined Stance lasts about half as long, recharges twice about as slow, grants some armor, requires a moderate tactics spec, and obviously doesnt have the double damage drawback.

Meeting the req on a shield is not a drawback. Disciplined stance is up 4 out of every 15 seconds (36% of the time) as opposed to 80% of the time for frenzied defense. If you need 80%, then you're not kiting enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

In actual practice, I've found Disciplined Stance to be pretty worthless (its duration, recharge, and required spec are all really dissapointing tbh).

I wouldn't call it worthless, but yeah I like natural stride better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Frenzied Defense, on the other hand, has been pretty brilliant for me in many situations.

Expose defenses, shatter enchantment, and wild blow (on dervishes, assassins, and rangers -- the double damage triggers before the stance ends) are three very good reasons not to use frenzied defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

And while it is true that Spirit Bond is better than Prot Spirit on every other monk bar in TA, you run it on a monk with Frenzied Defense to limit it's drawback. Getting smacked with double damage from spells and lucky swings is no fun.

And therein lies the biggest problem with frenzied defense. To allow you to use an inferior stance without too much penalty, you bring an inferior prot.

moko · Mar 30, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

i believe Weapon of Fury is a totally useless char in TA. it makes game so long without actually dealing decent damage. ._.

the BB looks fine, im just not sure if purge is actually that much of a good idea. :<

mes is something new to me, but id change arcane thievery for something else anyways, maybe guilt or unnatural signet possibly. :P

the monk should definately kick gift & shielding in favor of spirit bond and mending touch, dismiss should be mend condition (or draw but i wouldnt use it in this). with you running 3 squishy targets, spirit bond will turn out to be awesome. of course, with these changes, you will have to run something else but the crap frenzied..*coughgolecough*

Neo-LD;

have you ever been shattered in frenzied defense? have you ever had a dervish wildblow you without the just shattered enchant? or an air spike unload his full bar on you while in the stance? id guess not.

frenzied simply SUCKS, sure, it works against idiotic teams because nobody runs stanceremoval or enchant removal, but against the good teams, where EVERY SINGLE OF YOUR SKILLS will matter, your going down.

and also, who cares about the recharge or duration off the stance? you dont seem to know what they are for - they are to use while dazed so you can mend touch yourself, not something constant to burn your energy with.

kite more:P

Neo-LD · Mar 30, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

TBH nothing really kills me in TA except one thing: teams that sit a thumper on my face while also hurting at least one other teammate so that I am forced to stop kiting to heal them too. Im speaking mostly to the current fad team of Thump/SpearChucker/WeaponRit here. There isnt really any other team in TA that my team will ever lose to, and I dont need any particular stance to beat any of those teams.

However, I do need a stance to beat the aforementioned thumper tactic, and that stance sure as hell isnt Disciplined Stance. Frenzied Defense gets the thumper off of me in a hurry, and granted there are a bunch of things that could go wrong (you two have been generous enough to point out several) none of them really happen to me on any sort of regular basis. And you will notice, I trust, that absolutely none of the "things that could go wrong" are present on the thumper team.

So I suppose I could agree that Frenzied Defense is not the best choice in some situations, but again, none of those situations really matter to me. I dont need any stance to beat Assasins with Expose, Dervishes with Wild, Mesmers with Shatter, or an Air spike. If your build has any of those things in it, Im not worried. Im meta-ing against the only build I think has a chance to beat me.

Also, neither prot spirit nor spirit bond are particularly stupendous in TA. The list of things that consistently trigger spirit bond is pretty small, and again, populated by characters that I consider non-threats (air eles, fire eles, dervishes, etc), So I dont see Prot Spirit as any significant downgrade.

Divineshadows · Mar 30, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

So I suppose I could agree that Frenzied Defense is not the best choice in some situations, but again, none of those situations really matter to me. I dont need any stance to beat Assasins with Expose, Dervishes with Wild, Mesmers with Shatter, or an Air spike. If your build has any of those things in it, Im not worried. Im meta-ing against the only build I think has a chance to beat me.

A rampage thumper, as Absum so loved to point out in the past, can easily bring wild blow and still have room for an interrupt skill like distracting blow or disrupting lunge. A rampage spearchucker has room for 3 attack skills and would have to be crazy not to have one of those 3 be wild throw.

erk · Apr 02, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

TBH
...
Also, neither prot spirit nor spirit bond are particularly stupendous in TA. The list of things that consistently trigger spirit bond is pretty small, and again, populated by characters that I consider non-threats (air eles, fire eles, dervishes, etc), So I dont see Prot Spirit as any significant downgrade.

Unless I misunderstand how it works, Spirit Bond is triggered if in the next 10 attacks the total damage taken is above 60 before any damage reduction?

So if Spirit Bond is not triggering then why would PS have any reduction either unless your Max Health is very low like a 55 monk?

I figure that if you don't get 60 damage in 10 attacks then you are not under threat!

Please correct me if I have the concept wrong, I don't Monk often.

A M I T Y · Apr 02, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Unless I misunderstand how it works, Spirit Bond is triggered if in the next 10 attacks the total damage taken is above 60 before any damage reduction?

So if Spirit Bond is not triggering then why would PS have any reduction either unless your Max Health is very low like a 55 monk?

I figure that if you don't get 60 damage in 10 attacks then you are not under threat!

Please correct me if I have the concept wrong, I don't Monk often.

No you have it about right there.

Spirit Bond after its 'Modification/Nerf' is intended to have it's use in spike protection. As a result its terrible vs the kind of pressure damage you encounter in Team Arenas.

Try using it to counter pressure as effectively as say SoA or even Guardian would, and you may as well pull out your extra energy set in front of a Surger and moon him.

Surena · Apr 02, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I'd rather use a 4s-Disciplined Stance than having to cover frenzied defense with PS and having it shattered/diversioned the next second .

You can't argue on a lack of spammability of "Wild Blow"/counters to justify bringing the bad skill "Frenzied Defense" because even warriors with their 2 pips can spam it on recharge if playing a Steady-Stance build.

Spura · Apr 02, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Unless I misunderstand how it works, Spirit Bond is triggered if in the next 10 attacks the total damage taken is above 60 before any damage reduction?

So if Spirit Bond is not triggering then why would PS have any reduction either unless your Max Health is very low like a 55 monk?

I figure that if you don't get 60 damage in 10 attacks then you are not under threat!

Please correct me if I have the concept wrong, I don't Monk often.

It triggers next 10 times that a single source of damages does over 60. That means if they are hittign under 60 they can deal as much damage as they please.

It is not total of damage over 60 like you said. That is how angelic protection works.

Divineshadows · Apr 02, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by A M I T Y

Spirit Bond after its 'Modification/Nerf' is intended to have it's use in spike protection. As a result its terrible vs the kind of pressure damage you encounter in Team Arenas.

Not true.

ZB monks run 14 (or more) protection prayers. Threatening teams will have some damage packets over 60. Against hammer warriors and dervishes, spirit bond triggers on their auto-attacks all the time. It also triggers frequently against axe warriors hitting a kiting target or using attack skills. Against sword warriors, unfortunately, it only reliably triggers against attack skills. Blades of steel makes it trigger twice and some other assassin attack skills make it trigger. Monks that pay attention can get mileage out of spirit bond. Anytime you can get it to trigger twice (which is two 100 point heals), you've about broken even on your energy. Anytime you get it to trigger 3 or more times, you're riding the gravy train.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A M I T Y

Try using it to counter pressure as effectively as say SoA or even Guardian would

While SoA is still very good against the type of pressure you can expect to face in TA, the one second cast time is a major drawback to consider. If you have the skill slots for spirit bond, reversal, and SoA, then I would run all of them. Otherwise, I'd run just spirit bond and reversal due to their 1/4 second cast times.

If guardian was a 3/4 second cast time, then I think it would be worth considering but at 1 second it just consumes too much time (it worked better with divine boon cause you got healing for your time spent).

zyphaz · Apr 03, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Just a heads up, I'm the original poster's guildie that threw this build together and the version that he posted was an early version. Every one pretty much nailed it's original short comings so here's an updated version that has gone 40+ on numerous occasions.

http://gwshack.us/2dd74

Changes:

Purge moved to Resto Rt
Swapped Mesmer for 2nd Rt
Monk changed to Divert Mo
War is now a W/D and brings Rend Touch and Guiding Hands

The build lives and dies on the Backbreaker's ability to land Crushing blow hence the two Mend Body, Purge Signet and Divert to keep the warrior clean. If the Warrior cannot continuously swing out DPS there is no other feasible kill play in the build. The lack of direct healing of the Divert Mo is compensated by the above mentioned 2 Mend Bodys as well as a spammable WoWarding.

Spike comes either as Bbreaker connects or after Rend Touch, either way just as Crushing is about to land. Admittedly, it is still very easy to see coming, but hard to survive even if preprotted due to Rend and it's sheer speed of an unblockable Crushing and 2 Ancestors Rages after Rend.

Rend Touch Backbreaker
Warrior/Dervish
Level: 20

Strength: 13 (12+1)
Hammer Mastery: 14 (12+2)
Wind Prayers: 2 (2)
Backbreaker [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)
Guiding Hands (Wind Prayers)
Rending Touch (Dervish Other)
Distracting Blow (Warrior other)
Enraging Charge (Strength)
Flail (Strength)
Resurrection Signet ()

Divert Hexes Monk
Monk/Warrior
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 11 (10+1)
Healing Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Protection Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Shielding Hands (Protection Prayers)
Gift of Health (Healing Prayers)
Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
Divert Hexes [Elite] (Protection Prayers)
Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
Mend Ailment (Protection Prayers)
Balanced Stance (Tactics)
Shield Bash (Strength)

Ancestors' OoSpirit
Ritualist/Monk
Level: 20

Spawning Power: 4 (3+1)
Channeling Magic: 13 (12+1)
Restoration Magic: 15 (12+1+2)
Recovery (Restoration Magic)
Life (Restoration Magic)
Offering of Spirit [Elite] (Channeling Magic)
Mend Body and Soul (Restoration Magic)
Ancestors' Rage (Channeling Magic)
Weapon of Warding (Restoration Magic)
Purge Signet (Monk other)
Resurrection Signet ()

Ancestors WoFury
Ritualist/Monk
Level: 20

Spawning Power: 4 (3+1)
Channeling Magic: 16 (12+4)
Restoration Magic: 13 (12+1)
Bloodsong (Communing)
Destruction (Channeling Magic)
Weapon of Fury [Elite] (Channeling Magic)
Mend Body and Soul (Restoration Magic)
Ancestors' Rage (Channeling Magic)
Weapon of Shadow (Restoration Magic)
Essence Strike (Channeling Magic)
Death Pact Signet (Ritualist None)

Divineshadows · Apr 03, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zyphaz

so here's an updated version

The new version looks like it's moved away from pressure to pure spike. The spike looks pretty nasty (for the opponents that is). Do rending touch and guiding hands have any interaction issues? Other than that, the only thing that may be a bit difficult to execute is having a defensive weapon spell on each rit (warding on one and shadow on the other). Without proper communication, I could see these two characters stepping on each others' toes by overlaying their weapon spells on the same ally.

As for skill selection, spirit bond and shield of absorption would reduce/prevent more damage that would otherwise need to be healed than the prot spirit and shielding hands combination. I like the warrior skills the monk is using now though. Speaking of which, are the attributes you listed for the monk correct? You currently have a 0 spec in tactics, but the leftover points would allow for a 2 spec. Still doesn't give much duration on balanced stance though.

zyphaz · Apr 03, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Yeah, it's definitely a pure spike build now that takes a ton of play time between the team to work effectively. It's not a setup that you really can be successful with PUG'ing with do to a few reasons.

Rend needs a RoF to cover Guiding Hands if you know you're going to get a block attempt. As you mentioned the Warding/Shadow need coordination and a good 'feel' of the other Rt player in general. In practice Warding has been used more as a spammable Preprot and Shadow was used more on reaction to Trains.

The spill over 2 into Tactics yielding a 10 second Balanced Stance is usually enough to either SBash recharged if it wasn't up, get a Warding or Shadow on you.

SBond for Prot Spirit, I like that as well as SoA for Hands. Thanks for the suggestions.

Divineshadows · Apr 03, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zyphaz

SBond for Prot Spirit, I like that as well as SoA for Hands. Thanks for the suggestions.

The person playing monk will not want to stack both enchants on the same person. If they are getting big packet hits (scythe, hammer, axe, ele spells, etc.), then spirit bond. If the incoming packets are smaller (almost all less than 60), then shield of absorption is the way to go.

Drizdee · Apr 10, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Meeting the req on a shield is not a drawback. Disciplined stance is up 4 out of every 15 seconds (36% of the time) as opposed to 80% of the time for frenzied defense. If you need 80%, then you're not kiting enough.

I wouldn't call it worthless, but yeah I like natural stride better.

Expose defenses, shatter enchantment, and wild blow (on dervishes, assassins, and rangers -- the double damage triggers before the stance ends) are three very good reasons not to use frenzied defense.

And therein lies the biggest problem with frenzied defense. To allow you to use an inferior stance without too much penalty, you bring an inferior prot.

36% of the time VS 80% of the time.

Energy cost on using Prot Spirit VS energy cost on using Spirit Bond..

It's all conditional, and in my personal experience frenzied beats disciplined stance by miles.

Divineshadows · Apr 10, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drizdee

Energy cost on using Prot Spirit VS energy cost on using Spirit Bond..

You're looking at it all wrong. You can't compute energy cost based on the duration of these two prots and make a comparison there. What you should be looking at is how much damage did the protective spell actually prevent (though reduction or healing) for the amount of energy you spent. Simply put (outside of PvE where bosses do double damage, you're consistently fighting lvl 24-28 enemies with your lvl 20, and 55 monks are running around), protective spirit does not perform well in the area of damage reduction. Spirit bond does perform well in PvP. I have a much longer explanation of the comparison of the two posted at the bottom of sequence 19 of this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10082083

In PvP, protective spirit only outperforms spirit bond for your energy spent on idiots running frenzied defense. Given that the other 3 team members are likely not running that skill, you're essentially bringing an inferior prot that benefits only yourself and is of less benefit to your teammates. That's the defenition of a real team player. Go get 'em tiger with your frenzied ways.