Curse

baaba · Apr 03, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

The game is NOT balanced at all. Soul Reaping is messing the game balance. Everyone sees that except Anet.

Everyone is now running R/W or R/D with Splinter Weapon, OoA Necro, and spirit spammer that gives the Necro almost unlimited energy to spam skills like OoA and healing. It is the new FoTM.

PS: The skill "Icy Vein" should not be put in Soul Reaping attribute.

Jordan Faith · Apr 03, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Look here guys. i was X Child Prey X in that match.

There was nothing unbalanced about that build.
we used the same skills that everyone else did.

reason why we won and held?

TACTICS.

it's not about using an overpowered spike, most spikes can be infused.

(imo nerf icy veins..)

All we did was play smart, and let me over extend like i always do.

GG's To all who played.

to those who are bitching and moaning about it... get over it. all we did was use better tactics. there was nothing inbalanced about it. if you dont think so, try running the build. you'll fail if you dont know how to do it.

peace.

Sinful Doom · Apr 03, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

At least I see variety (3 teams with different team builds (based on class) fighting).

I see searing flames which never got fixed and only to an extent requires you to hit "T" and press 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 7 (attune), 1, 2. The second window is 8 paragons with mass pressure and no need for monks due to infinite energy from shout spams and motivation healing. (sorry I feel monks should be in every build from a purist aspect) In the last window I see what EVERYONE that has enough common sense to see is spirit soul reaping exploitation.

Current map mechanics-

1.Kill Count Initially my thoughts were to keep kill count to prevent holding builds. After talking to others and reading comments on forums I have converted because it simply promotes spike builds too heavily, especially in 8v8.

2.HoH relic runs and capture points-

These maps are the closest things to GvG in the sense that they require more tactical teamwork to succeed. This is why I feel it would be a bad decession to remove these 2 mechanics from halls.

My argument for 6v6 over 8v8.

I will make alot of comparison's between GvG and tombs because GvG IMO has a higher lever of sophistication, however the gap between the 2 became more narrow with relic run and capture points in tombs.

1. In GvG if you face a spike team you have a few options not present in tombs. You can force a split in the attempt to reduce stand damage or weaken healing by having the other team react to their base. You can also cap the flag forcing the runner who normally carries damage to return to get more flags. In tombs its a heads up fight with no options. This is why so many hate Jade Isle because it forces the same type of scenario. With 6v6 there is a natural damage reduction due to 2 less players in a 1v1 fight. Hench less of a chance of gimmick or imbalanced spikes to kill.

2. This game has become very diverse with the massive amounts of new classes and skills from new professions. I feel that anytime you reduce the amout of possiblilies from a build like in 6v6 less gimmick can occur and true player/group skill will shine brighter. This is why alot of posts in other threads and forums would like to see a Prophecies only GvG tournement's/ladder's. (another argument in itself)

3. When tombs was 6v6 I liked how it set the different aspects of PvP into level's, random arenas being the lowest, GvG being the pinnacle and tombs above team arena's. 6v6 also made forming groups much easier. Also for guild groups that enjoy GvG 6v6 was a good fallback in the event they didnt have 8 on for GvG. Now you lose some of that player base from tombs.

Suggestion for elimination of kill count

Make broken tower a timed point system of holding like in halls. Make courtyard a timed capture point system like in halls.

*On a side note* I would like to see hero's and hench removed from all PvP other than hero battles. I'm simply tired of fighting AI. I can go PvE if I want that satisfaction. I see entirely too much of this in 8v8 tombs.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 03, 2007, 08:53 AM // 08:53

GW is based off of Magic: The Gathering, right?

Llint · Apr 03, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Faith

Look here guys. i was X Child Prey X in that match.

There was nothing unbalanced about that build.
we used the same skills that everyone else did.

reason why we won and held?

TACTICS.

it's not about using an overpowered spike, most spikes can be infused.

(imo nerf icy veins..)

All we did was play smart, and let me over extend like i always do.

GG's To all who played.

to those who are bitching and moaning about it... get over it. all we did was use better tactics. there was nothing inbalanced about it. if you dont think so, try running the build. you'll fail if you dont know how to do it.

peace.

Yes, because running 5 assassins that can spike a 100 armor target SOLO is not imbalanced. GG. Tactics? You mean like " Everyone get on a seperate target and wait for 1 " Tactics?

And, icy veins doesn't need a nerf, okay maybe it shouldn't be in soul reaping, but its farm from overpowered.

Yunas Ele · Apr 03, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Faith

Look here guys. i was X Child Prey X in that match.

There was nothing unbalanced about that build.
we used the same skills that everyone else did.

reason why we won and held?

TACTICS.

it's not about using an overpowered spike, most spikes can be infused.

(imo nerf icy veins..)

All we did was play smart, and let me over extend like i always do.

GG's To all who played.

to those who are bitching and moaning about it... get over it. all we did was use better tactics. there was nothing inbalanced about it. if you dont think so, try running the build. you'll fail if you dont know how to do it.

peace.

Yes because you need soooooo much tactics to pwn all the skilled players in HA right now, right guys? This game ownzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Cass · Apr 03, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

For a good treatment of what makes a balanced build, look here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10135810

To those who stated they ran some gimmick build 'cuz everyone is running it': you suck and you kill that which you say you like. In reality, the motivation you have for playing a gimmick is as old as Halls, and it's Fame, acquired however.
Once you have your fame and the next rank is so far off that you can't bring yourself to grind for it anymore, you'll find yourself magically losing interest in the game, or in Gate of Pain tigering some Sunspear General who is wholly oblivious as to what the hero title means. /rant

On to my soapbox. Halls has always been dominated by cheap gimmicks. Now killcount has favored spike builds, and they proliferate. Just like before, you still have the choice not to play that. I chose to not play the gimmick back when IWAY was reigning halls all day and I choose it now. Doing this is not easy and will leave you defeated by the gimmicks more often than not, at least initially. Hell I've been beated by IWAY teams in UW so many times, but at some point you get the skills as a player/team to consistently beat them, AND the subsequent ranger spike. And when you do, you feel some accomplishment. Beating the gimmicks by being adaptive and thus without rock-paper-scissors build wars is what makes Halls fun.

Today the goal is to beat these spikers. Golden tip: It is still possible with a balanced build.
I'll admit that killcount on Broken Tower especially is a tough nut to crack, but this is only so because there is usually at least one very weak team on this early map that gets rolled by a spike team. If the spike can rack up a high number of kills, your chances as a balanced team drop rapidly. However, on most other maps you're on more equal footing. Farming teams is not so bad on Courtyard, as there has been some selection before.
These spikes are not so strong that they cannot be defended against, even if HA means you have to fight head-on always (no splitting like in gvg). Infusing is important, like protting. Shutdown works too, especially on all those caster spikes. Divert 2 searing flames and it's over. You'll also need melee defense (hexes, snares or wards) for the thumpers too. Point is, you can pack all this with 8 players. Be glad. Now it's just up to you whether you play this way, or simply want to grind easy fame with one gimmick or the other.

Sinful Doom · Apr 03, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

At least I see variety (3 teams with different team builds (based on class) fighting).

maybe this was the variety you were talking about in tombs now?

the_jos · Apr 03, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I think the PvP game will always shift.
I've seen this in GvG and expect the same thing in HA.

Sure I've seen a lot of spike builds the last few days.
Yesterday I joined a random team of R0-R3's with a balanced team build.
This went quite ok against spike builds.
I think more and more people adapt to the current spike meta and learn to counter.
SR nerf could be a valid option, but I'm not sure about that one yet.
When more spike counter / pressure builds come up, it could be there is no need to nerf.

I'd give it a couple of weeks before I decide on the SR nerf.

Patccmoi · Apr 03, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Wait for balance supposedly at the end of the week and see how it'll be afterwards at least. Soul Reaping abuse gone (very likely) will be a very good start.

We've only been running fairly balanced setups since 8v8 change and we're slowly improving them to something that's solid enough to handle most gimmicks and still do well on kill count or the like. The only gimmick i hate to face head on is the mass Necro hex spike with 151322 spirits which should die on balance, others are usually quite manageable. In kill count it's fine most of the time unless we end up against something like 2 x spike teams as they will gladly just see that we're the not-a-spike team and usually both try to focus on us no matter what we do, and even if we maneuver well and prevent getting sandwiched, if it turns into a 3-way fight or something they will kill faster than us, especially things like 5-6 Searing Flames. That being said, even with more utility slots, the gimmicks are so much stronger in 8v8 that without a skill balance i don't think any really balanced setup can handle all of them efficiently except if you outplay the teams by so much (cause you definitely feel the difference when you fight a solid gimmick team or a PuG one. One will make you struggle like crazy to contain them while you can usually outpressure a gimmick pug in a matter of seconds and make them lose any kind of coordination).

I can't say i'm a big fan of Kill Count atm and i still think it'd be a lot better if it was removed from at least 1 altar map. The problem atm is that HoH doesn't actually encourage spike team, but every map on the way there does except maybe relic runs but spike team can still manage 1v1 relic runs quite easily by just spiking the other team and not letting them run. If you put a Capture Point map on Broken Tower, it'd seriously discourage spike teams right away. I'm not convinced KotH would (spike teams are usually quite strong at holding too as they can pack so much defense and kill enemy ghostlies/backline easily) but it'd still be better than Kill Count. I posted repeatedly what i think the map composition should be though so i won't do all of it again.

Alleji · Apr 03, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

Lots of QQ about QQing about altars

Today I'm bitching about imba skills which lead to lots of gimmicky crap, not about kill count. Bitching about kill count is on fridays. Get it right, Tara. :P

(Relics in halls are still retarded)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Faith

Look here guys. i was X Child Prey X in that match. I'm awesome because I use takteeks when pressing shadow prison-2-3-4-5-6 and win hallzzzz against henchwayzzzzz!

Nobody really cares. I simply wanted to post the screenshot because that match makes me laugh and cry at the same time. You're running gimmicky crap. Everyone is running gimmicky crap. Including myself. I spent the weekend playing hboon for 4 thumpers under ooa c-spacing on stuff. We got lots of fame not because we're good but because our shit was more broke than their shit.

Most of these high-ranked gimmick teams probably can run balanced quite well, it's just that balanced isn't good in current HA. And that's what we're QQing about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

GW is based off of Magic: The Gathering, right?

Oh come on, that's overdoing it.

Soul Reaping B
Enchantment
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play add any amount of mana of any color to your mana pool.
"It triggers off creatures, so it's balanced" - Izzy Rosewater

More like this, amirite?

Horace The Great · Apr 03, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Removing killcount would be a very good solution for all the spike teams

Alex Weekes · Apr 03, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

So, I can see from this thread that you all have a lot of concerns. Those are some ... interesting looking builds being run.

Now, I can't say much here. What I can say is that we do read this forum. I don't know what the design team have planned for HA, however they will be monitoring the situation.

There are skill balances on the way with some significant changes. I know I'll definitely be spending some time in observer mode this weekend having a look at as many matches as I can, both in HA and GvG.

Death_From_Above · Apr 03, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

So, I can see from this thread that you all have a lot of concerns. Those are some ... interesting looking builds being run.

Now, I can't say much here. What I can say is that we do read this forum. I don't know what the design team have planned for HA, however they will be monitoring the situation.

There are skill balances on the way with some significant changes. I know I'll definitely be spending some time in observer mode this weekend having a look at as many matches as I can, both in HA and GvG.

Ye they would be intresting if not everyone was running them. Iway was intresting, you nurfed that, vimway was intresting you nurfed that. So relevance of that point, im not sure to be honest. You say you read the forms, to be honest i dont buy it or like some can say, you read but you dont see. Other wise kill count would be gone by now and 8v8 would have been here like 5 months ago.

You say monitoring the situation. I believe no one wants the sitation monitored being we dont want to have to wait here for another 9 months. All we want is something done about it, im fed up of anet talking and not acting, all talk and no action is a negative thing and its getting annoying now. How many times have anet told us, were monitoring the sitation but obviously there not or they are but thats all their doing.

Its simple, get rid of kill count and put back altar holding. If you want to change things from there which i suggest you dont incase you mess things up again then hold a weekend event with what ever new mechanics you want. Other wise stop making things seem so difficult to spot and so big when they clearly arnt. And for all those saying they predicted 8v8 will suck. We all predicted 8v8 will suck but thats with kill count. 8v8 without kill count and with alter maps is the game mode that wont suck which is the one we want.

And lastly, nurse with wound, i dont think NF ruind the game. I think anet did with 6v6 and kill count. I do however feel if altarmaps and kill count where removed for 8v8 that NF may not have such a negative effect on the game as we are seeing (although pargons suck cos there defensive / so bascially keep team up yet are hard to kill because of rock defence. Basically like a monk with 80 armour +). But ye the only way we are going to see wheather the introduction of NF to the game is possitive or negative officialy is when we actually get to play it 8v8 altar maps.

antialias02 · Apr 03, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Ye they would be intresting if not everyone was running them. Iway was intresting, you nurfed that, vimway was intresting you nurfed that. So relevance of that point, im not sure to be honest. You say you read the forms, to be honest i dont buy it or like some can say, you read but you dont see. Other wise kill count would be gone by now and 8v8 would have been here like 5 months ago.

You say monitoring the situation. I believe no one wants the sitation monitored being we dont want to have to wait here for another 9 months. All we want is something done about it, im fed up of anet talking and not acting, all talk and no action is a negative thing and its getting annoying now. How many times have anet told us, were monitoring the sitation but obviously there not or they are but thats all their doing.

Its simple, get rid of kill count and put back alter holding. If you want to change things from there which i suggest you dont incase you mess things up again then hold a weekend event with what ever new mechanics you want. Other wise stop making things seem so difficult to spot and so big when they clearly arnt. And for all those saying they predicted 8v8 will suck. We all predicted 8v8 will suck but thats with kill count. 8v8 without kill count and with alter maps is the game mode that wont suck which is the one we want.

And lastly, nurse with wound, i dont think NF ruind the game. I think anet did with 6v6 and kill count. I do however feel if altermaps and kill count where removed for 8v8 that NF may not have such a negative effect on the game as we are seeing (although pargons suck cos there defensive / so bascially keep team up yet are hard to kill because of rock defence. Basically like a monk with 80 armour +). But ye the only way we are going to see wheather the introduction of NF to the game is possitive or negative officialy is when we actually get to play it 8v8 alter maps.

The fact of the matter is that these spike builds, just like other builds that are hard to beat, can be beat by the right teams. But a spike is a spike is a spike. Does anybody honestly think that the massive influx of spiritway and spike teams will just disappear if the Kill Count maps are replaced with Altar Holding maps?

Quite frankly, the PvP community is never satisfied, and I'm sure by now ArenaNet realizes it. No change they make pleases everyone, and so someone will always be complaining. Claiming that "once we get this, we will be happy" is a lie outright, so I'm not sure if it's even worth mentioning.

"Once Kill Count is removed, we will be happy."
"Once Paragay is nerfed, we will be happy."
"Once Izzy finally figures out soul reaping is too powerful and fixes it omg Q.Q we will be happy."

Lies, lies, lies.

(And finally, I'm not really sure how Nightfall's validity as an addition to the Guild Wars PvP world will be "made official" by playing it in an HA 8v8 Altar Map. Please.)

baaba · Apr 03, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Someone mentioned it before but I am going to break it down again as the most played (maybe lame) builds in HA right now.

Paraway Build
- In 6 vs 6, it is already hard to kill and now it is 8 vs 8 with 2-3 backup monks. WTH! Paragon's AP is like warrior with range attack and all the freaking chant/shout that can't be removed. GG.

Icy Veins Build
- Need I say more? Soul Reaping Attribute skill which means Necro can spam this like no tomorrow. Spirits, Spirits and more stupid Spirits spamming.

Splinter Weapon Build
- Again. Spirits, Spirits and more stupid Spirits spamming for the Necro but this time you have Splinter Weapon that cannot be removed on R/W or R/W running around chopping stuff.

Searing Flames Build
- No skill required build. You don't even need to call spike. All you do is click click click and everything is burning to hell.

Invoke Lightning Build
- I personally don't think it is broken. Nonetheless it is what some people like to run inside right now.

Vim Way Build
- I actually see quite a few Vim Way on the weekends but everyone knows how to beat it as long as you are careful.

Oh yeah. Most builds are using N/Mo instead of real monk inside to heal/prt. Why? Damn right it is because of Soul Reaping.

This game is perfectly balanced!

(joke)

Death_From_Above · Apr 03, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

The fact of the matter is that these spike builds, just like other builds that are hard to beat, can be beat by the right teams. But a spike is a spike is a spike. Does anybody honestly think that the massive influx of spiritway and spike teams will just disappear if the Kill Count maps are replaced with Altar Holding.

Lies, lies, lies.

Ever head of heavy hex > spike
Ever head of Alter capping requires skill and actually some thought. If your good spikes no problem.
Ever heard of kill count promotes full on damage and spikes, without it people can actually take utility to beat spikes?

Alleji · Apr 03, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

So, I can see from this thread that you all have a lot of concerns. Those are some ... interesting looking builds being run.

Now, I can't say much here. What I can say is that we do read this forum. I don't know what the design team have planned for HA, however they will be monitoring the situation.

There are skill balances on the way with some significant changes. I know I'll definitely be spending some time in observer mode this weekend having a look at as many matches as I can, both in HA and GvG.

Thanks for letting us know that you do read this forum, but I can't really understand why you chose this thread to comment on... after all, it's not exactly full of productive discussion.

I've heard people say that a major skill balance is coming up, but good to hear from an official source nonetheless. I guess I'll wait to see until the update how you've dealt with the problems in HA and PvP in general. Honestly, at this point I'd probably be happier to see soul reaping nerfed into Ether Renewal land (or should I say "spawning power land" since we're talking about attributes here?) rather than being underestimated again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Incoherent flames

You know, your poorly articulated flames don't really help your argument. So instead of randomly flaming Alex, please post some well thought-out criticism or stop making your position (and other people who support it) look retarded. Because I want the old halls back too, but having "intelligent" posts like yours "argue" a point only lessens its credibility.

Oh and how long have you been playing halls if you've never even noticed the proper spelling of ALTAR?

Quote:

Originally Posted by baaba

Vim Way Build
- I actually see quite a few Vim Way on the weekends but everyone knows how to beat it as long as you are careful.

Are you serious? I wouldn't be surprised to see ONE vim team anymore that I'd be surprised by 8 people without a clue... but more than one team running it? Why? It doesn't beat anything, it never did and after that VIM got a huge nerf...

Nurse With Wound · Apr 03, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

So, I can see from this thread that you all have a lot of concerns. Those are some ... interesting looking builds being run.

Now, I can't say much here. What I can say is that we do read this forum. I don't know what the design team have planned for HA, however they will be monitoring the situation.

There are skill balances on the way with some significant changes. I know I'll definitely be spending some time in observer mode this weekend having a look at as many matches as I can, both in HA and GvG.

I dont know if that, somewhat not serious thread is best for your reply, but nonetheless Im happy to see you in here.

The game currently is in bad need of skill update, a good, well thought skill balance that will bring back the state of the game from prophecies/faction era, that was in my opinion the best times of guild wars pvp.
Nightfall introduced a lot of powerfull skills that are damaging that fragile meta ( i dont have to mention them here, its enough to just go on observer mode ). Soul reaping abuse is still a problem, especially when hexes were buffed in the last update. I hope you will really look on all those issues.

The problem with Heroes Ascent meta which is godawful at the moment is not the new HOH objective ( which I really personally like ), or 8v8 format. Its the skill balance.

I really hope you want the game to be fun and competetive again Alex. I hope that you are as sick as I am of seeing searing flames eles, BOA assasins, and endless necro hex spam. Sadly, I dont have the power you do, so Its up to you guys to make the PVP side of the game competetive, balanced and fun again.

PS. Death From Above - stop posting about altars in every post you're making. Also, at least learn how to spell that word, which is obviously precious to you.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Apr 03, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Didn't read the past few posts, as I came here to say one thing. All you people that are saying "I told you so" about 6v6 or 8v8 being better need to shutup. We meant OLD 8v8, not KILLCOUNT. So while you guys are all talking about how we screwed up and 8v8 isn't really better, we're the ones laughing about how we can actually read posts/english correctly. Also, altar holding ENCOURAGED defensive builds, while killcount 100% REQUIRES a RIDICULOUSLY offensive build. Big difference.