Curse

Patccmoi · May 14, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Seeing the issues there is with Aegis and hex stacking lately in GvG, i was wondering if it wasn't time to put a cap on those.

A lot of things in the game are capped so that you can't abuse them by stacking stuff, like run speed buff/debuff, IAS, healing reduction, attack speed reduction, fast recharge, etc. but those aren't and i'm starting to wonder why.

There is really an issue atm with the miss hexes like Blurred Vision, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure and Spirit of Failure. Those hexes when stacked make attackers absolutely worthless and are MUCH harder to get rid of than blind.

So what i'd suggest is a 33-50% cap on miss % and a 50-66% cap on block %. I'm not totally sure about the exact numbers that'd be appropriate.

For those who don't know how cap work before i hear 'omg you nerf blind and Whirling Defense!', a cap DOESN'T reduce the amount a single skill gives. Blind would still be 90%, but Blind + Blurred Vision would ALSO be 90% because it crosses the cap. If block % is capped at 50%, all the 75% block would STILL be 75% block, but if you have Aegis on top you don't reach 87.5%.

For miss, it would really help against hex stacking. Price of Failure + Reckless Haste + Blurred WOULDN'T put you below 50% miss, and while 50% is still a siginificant amount it doesn't totally neutralize a guy either. You'd still benefit from some effects by stacking hexes (for example Price of Failure + Reckless Haste would only put you at 50% miss but you'd get the damage from PoF on miss).

For block, it would help against massively defensive teams (ala caster spikes) that sometimes end up with Ward against Melee + Aegis + Weapon of Warding and that you just can't touch without 'can't be blocked' skills. Now stacking Aegis + Ward vs Melee wouldn't do anything, except that if Aegis is stripped or you move out of the Ward you keep the other defense. Just like throwing Weapon of Warding on top of Aegis doesn't suddenly gives someone 75% block (which is very hard to hit through) but it only protects if Aegis gets stripped.

So this way mass hex + mass block could never reduce the chance of hitting from someone below 25% unless a skill that directly gives better result than that (more miss or more block than 50%) is in play. But i'm fine with that cause those skills tend to be expensive or have another kind of drawback one way or another.

So what do people think? Is it time those things are capped so that defense stack or hex stack are a little less appealing?

Numa Pompilius · May 14, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Hexes are costly to apply, have long recharge, and are ridiculously easy & cheap to remove. I mean, seriously, bring a monk. It's not like warriors aren't uber anyway.

Thomas.knbk · May 14, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Hexes are costly to apply, have long recharge, and are ridiculously easy & cheap to remove. I mean, seriously, bring a monk. It's not like warriors aren't uber anyway.

Hi
You suck
The current Aegis/hexes combo takes an opposing team's entire offense out of the game, while applying a significant amount of pressure at the same time. If you don't have Divert of Expel, your warriors are basically screwed.
Yes, I think it needs a cap for reasons above stated.

Patrograd · May 14, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

I can see the point you are making and broadly I agree. Although, I think that blind is the "gold standard" of balanced warrior shutdown and Diversion the "gold standard" of caster shutdown and that these should be the targets that all shutdown is aimed at. By "Gold standard" I mean easy to apply, very effective when on, short duration, easy to remove, requires timing to work at its best. However, working under the assumption that curses will never be nerfed so hard as to make them properly balanced in this way, it may well be that your solution is the right one.

remmeh · May 14, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Hexes are costly to apply, have long recharge, and are ridiculously easy & cheap to remove. I mean, seriously, bring a monk. It's not like warriors aren't uber anyway.

um, what?
12chars

Patccmoi · May 14, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I can see the point you are making and broadly I agree. Although, I think that blind is the "gold standard" of balanced warrior shutdown and Diversion the "gold standard" of caster shutdown and that these should be the targets that all shutdown is aimed at. By "Gold standard" I mean easy to apply, very effective when on, short duration, easy to remove, requires timing to work at its best. However, working under the assumption that curses will never be nerfed so hard as to make them properly balanced in this way, it may well be that your solution is the right one.

I'm 100% for a change to curses in general and to the balance of debilitating hexes (application, duration, removal option, etc.).

I just think that this should be added anyway and is a simple fix to implement and would at least help before the rest can be fixed..

RevenantsBurden · May 14, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I have been annoyed at how many ways to get direct damage charicters to miss there are as well, to be able to use one effectively you often need anti hex + anti condition + wild blow + balanced stance + an interrupt for ward against melee

So what I do instead now is create a build that can fight half the time but can also be usefull to the rest of the team while blinded etc. Like a warrior/mesmer with an elite anti hex
or a warr/monk with the elite anti-condition/hex signet
though what ive always wanted to do was a warr/ele that can spike or fight, Ive built a few fair ones but I pretty much gave up finding a good build for it

As long as there is always SOMETHING I can be doing for my team I am happy, though if I had friends I could have them remove my conditions and hexes and enemy enchants

Then at least I would only have to remove stances

But in Random arena having Two distinct roles you can preform for your team is highly effective for getting around counters and sometimes you can let the skills help heach other when none of them are countered

FoxBat · May 14, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

A simpler alternative (that you've mentioned before) might be to just use the highest value. There are very few cases I can think of where you'd want to stack low-powered effects against say a 50% cap, which is all I think is reasonable when you have 50% block to deal with as well. Either way is /signed from me.

On a sidenote I think the meta would be hilarious if guided weapon were changed back to negating miss chance.

Syntonic · May 14, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Hexes are a slightly larger issue since it has long durations and most hex removal requires you run several copies of it and thus potentially gimping your team against non hex teams - mainly, the major hex removers are all elites and subject to signet of humility which players can plan around by bringing a few copies of that as well. That leaves purge signets which has it's drawbacks.

Most of the blocking mechanisms that are being hated against are the spell types rather than stances. Aegis, for example, is a 2s cast and it's not very difficult to interrupt as well as having a moderate duration when compared to hexes. Not to mention, there is a massive amount of enchantment hate that people can carry about normally anyway. Most of them also have some utility added on to it such as damage, degen, or energy gain (mirror of disenchantment just strips aegis.) Chaining aegis gets around some of the limitations but is still prone to enchant removal.

I can understand why you might to change how blocking stacks together but I don't think it's entirely necessary since most of the blocking spell skills are single targets which also do not last forever and a day. Not to mention, there are some antiblocking measures that you can bring along as well if it's that much of an issue. Weapon of warding may be the largest problem due to the fact that you can't strip it. A 75% flat cap probably wouldn't change things too much though but 50% is far too low for a cap with multiple spells and their energy costs. I don't think "miss" has a cap though and I'm not entirely convinced there should be a cap on it either. Quite frankly, there needs to be multiple avenues of shutdown against melee. Durations of hexes may need to be looked at a bit however but I neither make or decide upon game balance.

@RevenantsBurden: The team can be reasonably balanced to handle numerous of situations but you are forced to rely on your team. That's the nature of guild wars and balancing. I really don't think Guild Wars should be balancing the game around the RA meta.

Thomas.knbk · May 14, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

Aegis, for example, is a 2s cast and it's not very difficult to interrupt as well as having a moderate duration when compared to hexes. Not to mention, there is a massive amount of enchantment hate that people can carry about normally anyway.

Well, the problem is that a monk can run back two miles to cast aegis. Interrupting gets kinda difficult then. You can't really pressure while the monk is gone, because your warriors have a 100% miss chance and can't move. Your ranger also has a 100% miss chance, so Dshotting Aegis is impossible, and your mesmer is too squishy to run beyond their backline like that. Not to mention Power Drain can only interrupt one aegis, and their team most likely has two.
Enchant removal...Mirror is the only thing that really works, and it's the only thing keeping Aegis from being even more retarded than it is, but it promotes a 'bring this skill or lose' situation, which sucks.

Wasteland Squidget · May 14, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I'm neutral about this change, because I don't feel it will have any effect at all on the effectiveness of hexes or Aegis. You don't meaure a warrior's effectiveness in DPS, you measure in 'threat'.

Warriors have a lot of ways to create threat. Their adrenal attack skills are easily applied Deep Wound + damage that allows them to unleash a sudden and dangerous spike on a target. Bull's Strike is a threat because it's good damage, shutdown, and it sets a character up perfectly for a lethal spike. KD chains are a threat because they'll hold a target in place for assists and make the spike much easier for the rest of the team.

50% block/miss chance leaves a warrior with reasonable DPS, but eliminates the bulk of his threat. He can no longer spike reliably, and his damage is spread into easily healable timeframes. He can KD on occasion, but he can't follow those KDs with a lethal Deep Wound, so it's rare that they accomplish anything truly important. If the 50% miss is in effect on both warriors, your DPS won't even be good enough to really threaten the enemy monks.

This change would help teams that are trying to power straight through the enchantments/hexes, but nobody good is going to try that. Good teams beat Aegis and hexes by shutting them down or stripping them, then calling a push in the short window of opportunity they've created. You can beat Aegis by interrupting it or Mirroring it off or calling a Shatter-assisted spike while it's up. You can't beat Aegis by hitting through it, and you still wouldn't be able too even if this change went in.

Not Prime Time · May 15, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

While I don't think that a cap like this is a bad idea. I would much rather have a cap than some random half baked hack at balancing (what ever that may be). The logic you is are using is not 100% accurate. I don't clam have a complete understanding of the machanics of Block/Miss but, I do know this. Say "Squishy Monk" has Aegis+Guardian (at say 44% chance to block). The total percentage to Block is not 94%. Aegis + Guardian: may Block at the same time, Both might not block at all, Aegis may Block Guardian might not, Aegis might not block Guardian might Block. So there really is not stacking This type of mentality is an energy drain and a waste. I don't think this is such a killer combo (Block/Miss) but, they are 2 different machanics. But just as aegis and guardian they can block/miss at the same time or not at all and that negatings the benifits IMO. This is the GvG version of spirt spamming. In the case that a block/miss happens at the same time only one applies. I mean, you can only NOT HIT with an attack once!

I believe your reacting to the metagame rather than actual game mechanics. Metagame changes so quickly, and I believe it has already shifted for the reasons that you have stated. The way around all the warrior hate is to run a build that is not depended on melee.

IMO we are better off adjusting to the metagame rather than Anet adjusting the mechanics because of a poor meta. A little fix here a little fix there. Where do we stop after a while we'll be left with just weapons cause the skills and the mechanics have been made so worthless. It would make for a good up sale to GW2 "Upgrade to GW2 and you will actually get a GAME!"

Div · May 15, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Hexes are costly to apply, have long recharge, and are ridiculously easy & cheap to remove. I mean, seriously, bring a monk. It's not like warriors aren't uber anyway.

Or better yet, bring 8 monks and you won't have to worry about anti-melee hexes :O

I think there should be some sort of cap, but if it's 50% it'd really defeat the purpose of hex stacking and synergy. Maybe 66% or something...it'd be good for increasing the amount of pressure the warrior is able to dish out, but as long as the warrior's hexed, his threat in terms of spiking ability is pretty much gone.

placebo overdose · May 15, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Hexes are costly to apply, have long recharge, and are ridiculously easy & cheap to remove. I mean, seriously, bring a monk. It's not like warriors aren't uber anyway.

a warrior that cant hit is not quite as uber as you would think ^_^ but i do see what you are trying to say

samcobra · May 15, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

psh.. who needs warriors when you can have casters that can do damage by pressing buttons to the count of 3 2 1. Honestly though, anti-melee hexes are evil and due to their ridiculous durations, they are very easy to apply and last much longer than blind, while their stacked effects also make miss rate actually higher than blind. Also, Aegis/Defensive Anthem causes similar problems because there is really little to be done vs. blocking. When both of these are combined, any melee-type interrupts (including rangers) have a hard time. Since interrupts are the primary counters to hexes, this poses a huge problem. Mesmer interrupts are too expensive (in terms of recharges, etc) to randomly interrupt something that will recharge in 15-20 seconds anyway. The problem with the current hex build is that 1) signet of humility eliminates the possiblity of bringing elite hex removal. 2) purge signet will be shut down by the enemy ranger as much as possible, making it hard to get that shit off. 3) migraine on their mesmer is the effective caster hate and shutdown needed to balance the anti-melee applied by the necromancer. This, in addition to the fact that a general level of -8 health degeneration, or 16dps is being applied to most people and LoD, the usual counter to party-wide pressure is humilitied. The obvious solution is to run a heal party spammer, which is still quite viable, but due to the effectiveness of an LoD/infuse healer bar against a variety of builds, these are usually a replacement for the Eprod HP spammer, leading to problems against hexes.

red orc · May 15, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Shutting down all melee in gvg takes 2 anti melee casters. If the other team put so much energy there + 2.5 monks, then they should have realy good defense. You must not nerf it. The way to fight it is split.
There are other ways to make a strong defense. Try to spike through wards+aegis. Or melee pressure through necro hex + water hex.

Ensign · May 15, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

I don't think it's a bad idea but I don't think it'd have too much of an effect either. Stacks of hexes suck, sure, but realistically a Blurred Vision that's allowed to stick for duration will destroy a physical and make it impossible to pressure or kill an opponent. Any miss% hex + Aegis wrecks you. Faintheartedness is miserable in combination with pretty much anything. Saying that Blurred + Price only gives you a 50% miss chance instead of 62.5% miss chance might look like a meaningful difference, but really it still means that guy needs a Purge/Expel before he can threaten anything.

Caps on offense are meaningful, they prevent a team from fully overloading something very specific and making an offense that cannot be defended against. Defensive caps don't work the same way, because the cap has to be high enough that said defense is effective (otherwise, what's the point?), and going over the cap on defense is just being 'more than what is effective', which is just largely irrelevant overkill.

Peace,
-CxE

Wasteland Squidget · May 15, 2007, 07:02 AM // 07:02

I love it when people say "Don't bring builds that are reliant on melee to kill" as if an alternative exists.

cookiemonkie · May 15, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

With Mirror of Disenchantment, Gaze of Contempt Aegis can be handled. For the hexes I think it really boils down to there being a need the for buffing non elite (which are a fine target of signet of humility) hex removal skills. Start by reducing Monk's hex removal skills from 12 secs down to 10 seconds and see what happens. If thats inadequate.. move it down to 9, 8 seconds.

sir lockt · May 15, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think it's a bad idea but I don't think it'd have too much of an effect either. Stacks of hexes suck, sure, but realistically a Blurred Vision that's allowed to stick for duration will destroy a physical and make it impossible to pressure or kill an opponent. Any miss% hex + Aegis wrecks you. Faintheartedness is miserable in combination with pretty much anything. Saying that Blurred + Price only gives you a 50% miss chance instead of 62.5% miss chance might look like a meaningful difference, but really it still means that guy needs a Purge/Expel before he can threaten anything.

Caps on offense are meaningful, they prevent a team from fully overloading something very specific and making an offense that cannot be defended against. Defensive caps don't work the same way, because the cap has to be high enough that said defense is effective (otherwise, what's the point?), and going over the cap on defense is just being 'more than what is effective', which is just largely irrelevant overkill.

Peace,
-CxE

Nothing more to say...
/QFT