Curse

TheOneMephisto · Feb 18, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

A better challenge would be a reason to use it over [skill]Dragon Slash[/skill]

More skill slots to play with. Dragon slasher generally has 4 slots dedicated to attacks, but the cleave guy only needs 2 (3 if you want crit chop), giving him a bit more utility.

djbartek · Feb 19, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Pat, you forgot about Shadow Form.

Shadow Form - Remove the "you lose X amount of health when this skill ends" component, change it to a skill with a 10 second recharge that also changes the form of your character, set the duration at 10 + Attribute Rank, and cause the skill to become disabled for 45 seconds when used. Also make it so that traps are not sprung by the character when in this form.

Why - The skill in its current form is either useless or abusable with things such as Deadly Paradox and Arcane Mimicry + Echo. With this change it would temporarily give the Assassin near-invulnerability without the drawback of massive health loss when it ends and not be abusable by other skills in any way. Worthy of being an Elite but not problem causing.

Idea isn't mine(but I agree with it, that's why I posted it), I took it from this thread(please leave comments!):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115474

Patccmoi · Feb 19, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Pat, you forgot about Shadow Form.

Shadow Form - Remove the "you lose X amount of health when this skill ends" component, change it to a skill with a 10 second recharge that also changes the form of your character, set the duration at 10 + Attribute Rank, and cause the skill to become disabled for 45 seconds when used. Also make it so that traps are not sprung by the character when in this form.

Why - The skill in its current form is either useless or abusable with things such as Deadly Paradox and Arcane Mimicry + Echo. With this change it would temporarily give the Assassin near-invulnerability without the drawback of massive health loss when it ends and not be abusable by other skills in any way. Worthy of being an Elite but not problem causing.

Idea isn't mine(but I agree with it, that's why I posted it), I took it from this thread(please leave comments!):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115474

I didn't read this thread before, and to be honest i disagree with a lot in there. A lot of buffs are just over the line and make sins basically never have any emanagement issue even when using skills on recharge (and note that it's normal for a class, especially melee, to have some emanagement issue if they're in all-out push mode, which is what distinguishes good players that know when to go all-out and push and save energy for it and so-so players that try to be in all-out mode all the time and end up doing medium pressure all the time cause of energy issue. Builds that are high pressure and can be in all-out mode all the time end up like RaO thumpers : brainless, overused, and nerfed).

And i think that Shadow Form actually needs a real downside. I'm sorry but can you imagine a Shadow Form ganker or flag runner with that suggestion? There is just no downside, no risk. Sure, you can't keep it up for as long (btw note that AEcho and AMimickry would still work on it even if it's disabled, unless the skills mention specifically non-shadowform which i think would be retarded), but if it ends, well no big deal, you just become a normal target. You still have 40-50% of your time in nearly complete immunity for a pretty low energy cost. The reason why people don't use Shadow Form to run flag is because if you're delayed too much (say a Deep Freeze hits you by targetting someone else and you're bodyblocked, w/e) well your health will drop drastically and you just die cause their team is likely just waiting for it. But if you take out this risk, there's hardly any reason not to use it.

I think that the 10s recharge and 45s disable is a good idea to lower the Deadly Paradox abuse. But i think that everything else about it is actually fine.

There's some good suggestions for some non-elite deadly arts and shadow arts spells that i agree with (others i don't though) but i'm not gonna go on about non-elites too cause it would just take too long!

ShadowsRequiem · Feb 19, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

[QUOTE=Patccmoi]

[skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill] Really interesting elite overall, balanced by the fact that you can't use a cover hex on him yourself, but screwed up because by fear of making it too good they made the downsides too big (can't use spells for 15s). Could be made a solid elite if they made it something like 'can't use spells for 10..5s, target can't use spells, shouts or chants for 3..9..10s' and reduce the recharge to 20-25s. If the downtime on spells wasn't so attrocious, it'd be a nice elite to run with a Deadly Arts sin possibly with Deadly Paradox to have it ready very often.

[QUOTE]

I remember that crazy spike someone was running when factions just came out using I think it was 1 me/a with shroud of silence on the spiked foes..
keep in mind it wasnt on for too long. still enough time to spike b4 much hex removal.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 19, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

[skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill] was actually quite common at some point to shut down the 'other monk'. That was a long time ago though. Back when people still ran Boon Prots.

Patccmoi · Feb 19, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

I remember that crazy spike someone was running when factions just came out using I think it was 1 me/a with shroud of silence on the spiked foes..
keep in mind it wasnt on for too long. still enough time to spike b4 much hex removal.

It's not [skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill], it was [skill]Shadow Shroud[/skill]

We used it in the end of last season actually to very great success because it fits absolutely perfectly with Shadow Prison (SP covers it to prevent an easy hex removal and they can't enchant your spike target) and lets you do a less tight spike with very high damage (we used dual Savannah Heat with Liquid Flames and Immolates, with a W/A doing Shadow Prison -> Dismember-Crit Chop and a Me/A doing Shadow Shroud + SP + WD or Shatter Enchant if the guy had any prior to the spike). The spike did over 1k damage and so even infuses didn't actually manage to save it, and with no way to prot the guy most teams couldn't really do much, monks would burn energy trying to heal the guy and it usually wasn't enough one way or another. Single hex removal had no way to reach Shadow Shroud, and Divert Hexes isn't a reflex most monks have when a guy is getting destroyed by non-hex skills (and even then, time to do Divert and THEN prot was possibly too late. It's not really a spike in fact, it's more like really really high pressure concentrated on a guy over a pretty short duration. We kept the guy there through gale lock + shadow prison, had 4 gales in the build). I'm very surprised actually that this elite is NOT used more considering the popularity of Shadow Prison. It's very, very good at insuring a 'spike' will kill if you can't remove it if the spike overkills and healing alone won't do. Note that i'm not suggesting any buff to Shadow Shroud, it's one of the elites i consider fine and balanced, even if more useful on Me/A than on Assassin primary. It's very efficient for spike purpose with just 6 in Shadow Arts which is very easily met in any kind of setup and Dom Mesmers have a free elite.

Shroud of Silence requires touch range and locks your own spells for 15s. There's no way a Mesmer would want to use it.

I don't actually remember seeing Shroud of Silence used in any serious GvG game. Saw it once in a while in TA where there's only 1 monk. It could be timed well for a spike in GvG, but honestly it's nothing Gale or Diversion can't do from range, it's not like you're going to spike over a 9s duration! If you're going touch range timed with a spike, i don't see any reason to run this over Blackout. The only reason you'd run this over Blackout is if you want to spike yourself (since it doesn't lock your attack skill, but you'd likely spike the target that you just used Shroud on since you don't have all that much time before it's over).

Thomas.knbk · Feb 20, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

It's not [skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill], it was [skill]Shadow Shroud[/skill]

Ah, you're right. My bad.

ll Munch ll · Feb 20, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

More skill slots to play with. Dragon slasher generally has 4 slots dedicated to attacks, but the cleave guy only needs 2 (3 if you want crit chop), giving him a bit more utility.

CLEAVE???????

Dragon slasher does more DPS than a cleave guy. Thats why. If you want DPS you go with Dragon slash.

If you want to spike you go Evis - Exec.

If you want YAA(some other cool non hammer elite) then you might use dismember plus something.

These things have been known for a long time.

Cleave just isnt good eneogh to be run in either situation. Even with the eviscerate nerf. Those who should know better, Patcc and Guillame especially stop asking old questions that have been solved.

Munch

Patccmoi · Feb 20, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ll Munch ll

CLEAVE???????

Dragon slasher does more DPS than a cleave guy. Thats why. If you want DPS you go with Dragon slash.

If you want to spike you go Evis - Exec.

If you want YAA(some other cool non hammer elite) then you might use dismember plus something.

These things have been known for a long time.

Cleave just isnt good eneogh to be run in either situation. Even with the eviscerate nerf. Those who should know better, Patcc and Guillame especially stop asking old questions that have been solved.

Munch

Lol, quote me at one place where i asked a question (maybe there's a rhetoric question i don't remember)? I just answered people...

And i said exactly the same thing as you if you didn't realize. I said that Dragon Slash is the best for DPS and Eviscerate is the best for spikes. Cleave is an in-between when in-between is what you want (still decent spike but still high DPS while keeping a little more utility than a DSlash). If you don't want an in-between, then don't pick it, and that's it! It still doesn't make Cleave useless because it's not what you want in a particular build, it just doesn't make it the be-all-end-all axe elite (and finally, FINALLY Evis isn't either. But yes, it's still the best spike elite unless all you need is 1 hit for a nearly perfect spike where the DW is triggered by allies in which case Decapitate is actually good. I remember seeing very good uses of Decapitate on obs for a clean spike).

I know there was a big thread about Evis vs Cleave a long time ago, but Evis was nerfed twice since then (adrenal cost and damage) and Cleave was buffed (damage), so it doesn't really apply anymore and it's time people realize it too.

moko · Feb 20, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

<< doesnt wanna comment on cleave vs dragonslash or evis even, so ill just post the most useless elite ever.

[skill]Withdraw Hexes[/skill]

self diverting skill ftw!

some other goodies

[skill]Healing Burst[/skill][skill]Amity[/skill][skill]Mark of Protection[/skill][skill]Balthazar's Pendulum[/skill]

Diddy bow · Feb 20, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Lots of the prophs/core elites have been underpowerd since NF came out and have been ignored by buffs. NF elites are usually more powerful (there are exeptions of cource like evis. But the only CORE elites that are any good now are barrage, spike trap, Woh, echo and ele attunment. Mabay tainted and crippling anguish. The others tend to have better versions somwhere in the campains :/

But the only USLESS wlite imo is [skill]Balthazar's Pendulum[/skill] balenced stance with 0 points>this

djbartek · Feb 22, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Way of The Assassin

Right now even Critical Eye is more Elite worthy.

h2holbro22 · Feb 22, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Peace and Harmony

Windjammer · Feb 22, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I agree on Way of the Assassin as a useless elite. If it weren't a stance there might be somthing, but as a stance (and part of crit strikes) there is no possible combination that can't somehow be done better. For this reason, critical eye is indeed a better skill.

Domon Kasho · Feb 23, 2007, 11:01 AM // 11:01

almost the worst skill ever [skill]Skull Crack[/skill] (even though i use it in RA)

Adam of Tyria · Feb 26, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domon Kasho

almost the worst skill ever [skill]Skull Crack[/skill] (even though i use it in RA)

I personally think its a good skill for a non attribute. Most non attribute elites arent even worth having (ex. [skill]Wastrel's Collapse[/skill]) Its good because instead of using a skill such as [skill]Disrupting Chop[/skill] you can cause daze as well.

Personally the most annoying and useless elite skills is [skill]Balthazar's Pendulum[/skill] and [skill]Magehunter Strike[/skill]

Some other ones in my opinion are:

[skill]Dark Apostasy[/skill][skill]Locust's Fury[/skill][skill]Cleave[/skill][skill]Whirling Axe[/skill][skill]Enraged Smash[/skill][skill]Bull's Charge[/skill][skill]Defy Pain[/skill][skill]Dwarven Battle Stance[/skill][skill]Primal Rage[/skill][skill]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill]Gladiator's Defense[/skill][skill]Archer's Signet[/skill][skill]Escape[/skill][skill]Expert's Dexterity[/skill][skill]Marksman's Wager[/skill][skill]Famine[/skill][skill]Greater Conflagration[/skill][skill]Incendiary Arrows[/skill][skill]Scavenger's Focus[/skill][skill]Quick Shot[/skill][skill]Aura of Faith[/skill][skill]Boon Signet[/skill][skill]Peace and Harmony[/skill][skill]Unyielding Aura[/skill][skill]Withdraw Hexes[/skill][skill]Healer's Covenant[/skill][skill]Healing Burst[/skill][skill]Amity[/skill][skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill][skill]Signet of Removal[/skill][skill]Cultist's Fervor[/skill][skill]Life Transfer[/skill][skill]Order of Apostasy[/skill][skill]Plague Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Suffering[/skill][skill]Weaken Knees[/skill][skill]Enchanter's Conundrum[/skill][skill]Power Flux[/skill][skill]Psychic Distraction[/skill][skill]Psychic Instability[/skill][skill]Shared Burden[/skill][skill]Keystone Signet[/skill][skill]Tease[/skill][skill]Echo[/skill][skill]Shatter Storm[/skill][skill]Gust[/skill][skill]Ride the Lightning[/skill][skill]Thunderclap[/skill][skill]Stone Sheath[/skill][skill]Energy Boon[/skill][skill]Icy Shackles[/skill][skill]Grasping Was Kuurong[/skill][skill]Weapon of Quickening[/skill][skill]Consume Soul[/skill][skill]"Incoming!"[/skill][skill]Anthem of Guidance[/skill][skill]Crippling Anthem[/skill][skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill][skill]"The Power Is Yours!"[/skill][skill]Arcane Zeal[/skill][skill]Pious Renewal[/skill]

There ya have em, all of the elites that I think are useless. Most of you are probably thinking, "Wow, he posted alot...he must not know what a good elite is." Personally, some might be good to others, but usually you can find a better elite to use, or theyre just plain useless.

Patccmoi · Feb 26, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

[skill]Dark Apostasy[/skill] is far from a useless elite. It's actually quite powerful, its only weakness is the 2s cast (which i'll agree sucks).

The rest of the skill can actually turn an Assassin very similar to a Grenth Dervish. The energy loss is meaningless with the new Critical Strike (which, along with Zealous daggers, gives you a net 9E. Even if you remove 2 enchants, you STILL got a net 1E). Yes it's an enchant and can be stripped, but it can be covered pretty easily too and now that Grenth isn't there in every game there's little chance the other team will have much to spend on removing it honestly. Again, the main trouble is the 2s cast that you have to use every 20s if you want the effect (ofc it's not absolutely necessary).

A setup like:

14 Critical Strike
12 Dagger Mastery
9 Deadly Arts / Shadow Arts

Dark Apostacy
Black Lotus Strike
Black Spider Strike
Critical Strike
Impale / Twisting Fangs
Siphon Speed / Shadowy Burden
Critical Eye / Expose Defenses / Feigned / Dark Prison
Rez Signet

can do a pretty good amount of pressure, remove a LOT of enchantments, snare, do a decent spike assist (BSS-Critical Strike-Impale or Twisting Fangs depending), etc.

The thing with Dark Apostacy is that it works with any attack, not just attack skills, so just auto-attacking with Siphon Speed on a target is likely going to crit most of the time and remove any enchant they try to put up on the guy this way.

If it wasn't for 2s cast time, i'd really consider a DA sin often. I'm even considering using Deadly Paradox builds with Dark Apostcacy to cast it fast and just auto-attack to crit (with 14 CS, Critical Eye and good DM, you have around 40% Crit against non-kiting targets) using some Deadly Arts skills for damage with something like Dancing Daggers-Entangling Asp-Signet of Toxic Shock...

Riotgear · Feb 27, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria

[skill]Magehunter Strike[/skill]

Supposedly that can be used in sword builds as a followup to FT.

Quote:

Some other ones in my opinion are:

... [skill]Bull's Charge[/skill] ... [skill]Escape[/skill] ... [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] ... [skill]Order of Apostasy[/skill] ... [skill]Psychic Distraction[/skill] ... [skill]Consume Soul[/skill] ... [skill]Arcane Zeal[/skill]

Wait, what? Bull's Charge is bad? Escape is useful for running, Consume Soul is useful for screwing up the stupid ritspike meta (which is about as elegant as running Frigid Armor, but it is a use), Arcane Zeal is used to run orders, the others have various uses.

Enraged Smash is mostly ruined by the fact that Hammer Bash nerfs it, preventing a cohesive DW option (unless you wanna slap it on after Bull's Strike, but then again, axe can do that too). It was a good idea for a skill, but Dragon Slash and SS/Fear are both better at it.

Swiffle · Feb 27, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

[02:13] <[MH]Swiffle> i dont agree with bull's charge cleave crip slash crip anthem icy shackles

ZenRgy · Feb 27, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria

[skill]Psychic Distraction[/skill][skill]Bull's Charge[/skill][skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill][skill]Icy Shackles[/skill][skill]Crippling Anthem[/skill]

The fact that you listed PD as "useless" baffles me.

SoD, although costly gives a great block chance and armour buff.

Crippling Anthem, is just great to snare in my opinion, especially if you run 2 warriors and a ranger etc.

Bull's charge, another great skill to constantly knockdown kiting monks etc.

Icy Shackles, a great snare at 90% slowdown with no exhaustion etc. Not as good as water trident, but not useless.

- I really think you should look at some of the skills you listed again.