Curse

pah01 · May 08, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Price of failure is a 2s cast now. Aegis is much easier to run with buffed GoLE, amplifying its effect. GoLE + Signet of Lost Souls also makes energy management a non-issue for hexers, whereas before they had to blow their elite on offering of blood. This means they can use their elite for truly dangerous hexes like spoil victor (which was buffed hugely) or reaper's mark.

Basically its a combination of more effective hexes and more effective energy management that has pushed the curse bar over the edge.

And the fact that people are getting fed up with

1. Inflexible gimmicks dominating the ladder.
2. Passive Play.
3. Crappy classes from a pvp point of view - ie dervish, paragon,assasin,ritualist.
4. Buildwars rather than Guildwars.
5. Intelligent balance that produces RIT SPIKE.
6. Nightfall power creep that includes skills like energising finale/Rampage as one/avatar of grenth breaking the game.
7. Skills that break the game not being fixed quick eneogh (Signet of midnight bug showed that they can do this).
8. Map balance sucking for ages, jade/burning.

And maybe some other stuff.

Joe

Thomas.knbk · May 08, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frantic-Sheep

Just a random question (I mean, I agree with everything above - or at least almost everything), but what actually caused the whole discussion about hexes?

Reaper's Mark

Wasteland Squidget · May 09, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

It seems that MOR is often used to just throw diversion out there in the hope that it will catch *something*, well *anything* really. it is this indiscriminate diversion spam, whether onto monks or midlines, that while it is strong (because you will certainly catch something worthwhile) just promotes poor play and allows second rate mesmers to perform like superheroes. The only time I really feel that I get elite value from MOR is when playing in a spike build where having more shame/shatter is nice.

Well, obviously you bring MoR to spam your skills like there's no tomorrow. That doesn't make the timing or placement of the individual skills any less important, it just means you have more of them to throw around.

I'll put it this way - almost every low-ranked guild I play for seems to have a Domination mesmer who just targets a monk and karate chops his keyboard all day. His team can be pulling back with both monks down and he'll still be up on the frontline, putting Diversion on a monk, wondering why he isn't getting anything done.

MoR allows all those bad Dom mesmers to play with a reasonable level of effectiveness. Spamming MoRed shames and diversions on monks becomes a threat that has to be dealt with.

Of course, a skilled player with MoR will be changing targets constantly and diverting/P-leaking key enemy skills while shattering or shaming on every spike. He'll be much more effective than spam-on-monks guy because he has the skill to back up his spam.

So really, it's not about bad dom mesmers being superheroes, it's about bad dom mesmers accomplishing something for the first time. A skilled mesmer still wins out in the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Agreed, it was a bad example. I love playing cripslash because it is so ridiculously easy to use to create huge pressure, and I think thats where I was coming from. I guess you could say the same about a Melandru dervish mind you.

I disagree with your assessment of Cripslash as a huge pressure skill. Pressure as a warrior isn't just about putting out maximum DPS, it's about forcing the enemy monks into bad trades and decisions that threaten their energy/recharge pool sooner. The problem with Cripslash pressure is that you're almost always trading all of your adrenaline for 5 of their energy. They RC the guy you Cripslashed and his healthbar goes to full, with very little you can do about it.

You can say "Shutdown the RC!", but practically, most of your team's shutdown needs to be devoted to the two defensive eles so many teams run right now. Shutting down a few random monk skills doesn't do anything when your warriors are blind, blurred, snared, and otherwise shut down. If shutting down RC is a big part of your gameplan (say, in a condi pressure build) then Cripslash starts to look really strong, but you can't expect to shut it down for Cripslash alone.

When I play Cripslash, I often find myself wondering exactly what I've been brought along for. My spike is mediocre because it's a three-skill chain with no DW or +damage until the second hit. My pressure isn't great because, as mentioned, I'm trading all my adrenaline for 5 energy. The snare isn't amazing in skirmish because I have to build adren, hit reliably, and hope the other guy doesn't have Mending Touch. In the meantime, my three-skill chain prevents me from bringing a useful utility skill.

Even with all that, I don't think it's a terrible bar. It's versatile and can handle a lot of situations. However, it's not good enough in any one situation for me to choose it over an axe or hammer in most builds. When I'm making a build, I usually don't put in a Cripslash until I want three warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Basically its a combination of more effective hexes and more effective energy management that has pushed the curse bar over the edge.

The curses line always had a couple strong skills, most notably Faintheartedness. With Nightfall, it got Reckless Haste, which fills out the bar and increases the spammability.

The scary thing about Curses guy is that he has several spammable hexes, all of which require mass removal because of Parasitic Bond. Faint and Parasitic are two relatively spammable hexes, but put them together on one guy and you have hit him with mass-removal or he's non-functional. Price + Spirit are the same way. Reckless requires removal and can often hit more than one guy. Every good hex that line gets makes it worse, because it's something else Curses guy can combo with para-bond to force expensive mass removals and overload hex counters.

Genova · May 09, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Like others said the problem is that hex removal isn't strong enough. If divine favor skills weren't so crappy, deny hexes would be powerfull enough to always remove up to three hexes (unlimited seems too strong). Nobody want a draw hexes I guess, but if ritualists had better hex removal than monks, we would have a good alternative. Why it is that you can only use monks in this game ?

The game lose depth with the addition of classes that are still inferior to the core ones. Even if I understand that unconditional healing skills from the restoration line would make them far better than monks, giving resiliant weapon the same effect as holy veil is feasible and non-gaming breaking imo. You just have to adjust the recharge/cost, and the additional health regeneration could even see a buff since it is conditional and don't prevent spikes. Something that a lower cost and longer duration, or same cost and duration, but is renewed each time a hex or condition land on the target (makes for a fun combo with draw conditions without being as strong as melandru's resilience, with the lack of energy regeneration).

Another problem is the need of warriors. Warriors are easily shutdown by hexes but so are dervishes, assassins and paragons (rangers can realiably interrupt or stay of range). If you could choose another melee class that is stronger against hexers you would have an option. Something like a stance linked to the primary attribute that reduce hex duration, i'm thinking of dervishes here since they already have conditions' immunity, and the idea of avatars isn't so good to begin with.

If skills like nature's renewal were easier to use without hearting so much your teambuild, it could be good too. What about a tranquility spirit for hexes (in spawning power maybe, so non ritualists can't abuse it) ? It wouldn't hurt mesmers so much (no more nerfs please), at least they have interrupts (less lag please) and diversion/shame/guilt are always used in a timely manner (I loled at the MoR spam discussion, it's effectively overpowered by lack of meaningful counters, nothing else).

Assasins could also bring something to the table and be more useful. Since warriors are slower than them, and need to build adrenaline for their skills while assassins do not, maybe we can use this quickness more effectively. I'm maybe for an attack power bonus against casting foes like the avatar of lyssa. However I'd prefer to see something complety different like an enchantment making you unable to miss if you attack a casting foe, or the same effect as disrupting accuracy, interrupt on critical strike. It will make the golden line stronger while being conditional and susceptible to enchantment removal, hence not overpowered.

Overall it is more the lack of design/balance in the additional classes and the uselessness of non-elite health regeneration (buff healing breeze and mending, k thx), that makes the hex meta so static. For sure there is overpowered skills and underpowered ones but this can't address the lack of focus in the design of the new classes and their interaction/combination. The core classes have a more consistent concept even if not perfect, let's hope the others will follow the right path.

pah01 · May 10, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

Like others said the problem is that hex removal isn't strong enough. If divine favor skills weren't so crappy, deny hexes would be powerfull enough to always remove up to three hexes (unlimited seems too strong). Nobody want a draw hexes I guess, but if ritualists had better hex removal than monks, we would have a good alternative. Why it is that you can only use monks in this game ?

We need monks because of active prot skills. We also need heal party/light of deliverance somewhere. Monk hex removal is best in game. If rits had good removal then this would encourage secondary rits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

The game lose depth with the addition of classes that are still inferior to the core ones. Even if I understand that unconditional healing skills from the restoration line would make them far better than monks, giving resiliant weapon the same effect as holy veil is feasible and non-gaming breaking imo. You just have to adjust the recharge/cost, and the additional health regeneration could even see a buff since it is conditional and don't prevent spikes. Something that a lower cost and longer duration, or same cost and duration, but is renewed each time a hex or condition land on the target (makes for a fun combo with draw conditions without being as strong as melandru's resilience, with the lack of energy regeneration).

Buildwars. We dont want to HAVE to run ritualists as well as monks just to counter hexes.

We want monks because Monks have a robust skillbar that rewards active and skillfull players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

Another problem is the need of warriors. Warriors are easily shutdown by hexes but so are dervishes, assassins and paragons (rangers can realiably interrupt or stay of range). If you could choose another melee class that is stronger against hexers you would have an option. Something like a stance linked to the primary attribute that reduce hex duration, i'm thinking of dervishes here since they already have conditions' immunity, and the idea of avatars isn't so good to begin with.

Dervishes avatar of melandru giving immunity is gay. The existence of this avatar is what makes nobody bring blindbots. No more buildwars solutions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

If skills like nature's renewal were easier to use without hearting so much your teambuild, it could be good too. What about a tranquility spirit for hexes (in spawning power maybe, so non ritualists can't abuse it) ? It wouldn't hurt mesmers so much (no more nerfs please), at least they have interrupts (less lag please) and diversion/shame/guilt are always used in a timely manner (I loled at the MoR spam discussion, it's effectively overpowered by lack of meaningful counters, nothing else).

No more buildwars solutions

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

Assasins could also bring something to the table and be more useful. Since warriors are slower than them, and need to build adrenaline for their skills while assassins do not, maybe we can use this quickness more effectively. I'm maybe for an attack power bonus against casting foes like the avatar of lyssa. However I'd prefer to see something complety different like an enchantment making you unable to miss if you attack a casting foe, or the same effect as disrupting accuracy, interrupt on critical strike. It will make the golden line stronger while being conditional and susceptible to enchantment removal, hence not overpowered.

Assasins are probably the most passive class to play in offense. Attack power bonus like Lyssa?

No more buildwars solutions

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

Overall it is more the lack of design/balance in the additional classes and the uselessness of non-elite health regeneration (buff healing breeze and mending, k thx), that makes the hex meta so static. For sure there is overpowered skills and underpowered ones but this can't address the lack of focus in the design of the new classes and their interaction/combination. The core classes have a more consistent concept even if not perfect, let's hope the others will follow the right path.

No thank you. The problem is not Hex based degen[except maybe reapers mark needing a little recharge nerf].

Quote:

Originally Posted by me on another forum

The problem is hex based debilitating effects.

Conditions at the moment are easy on easy off. Its more expensive to apply a debilitating condition than it is to take it off. 15 energy blind then see 5 energy spammable condition removes.

Debilitating conditions dont last very long either (ie blind,cripple,daze).

The problem with hexes is that the debilitating hexes last much longer than Conditions.

Price of Failure lasts 30 seconds for 10 energy and it gets stacked with spirit of failure, reckless etc.

I am not too worried by degen as I am by the debilitating hexes.

Hex team kills by the degen with some physical damage thrown in. If you are a balanced team you need to play beatdown.

However instead of the "control hexing" team taking a lot of skill in kiting and correct application of debilitating hexes we have a simple spam the hexes on one target then the next, then rinse and repeat. The debilitating hexes for melee especially are applied passivly and on recharge rather than targeted and activle like a blind would be.

This leads me to make two points.

1. I do think that hex removal needs to be looked at.

2. More importantly, debilitating hexes like migraine for casters and price for melee need to have their durations shortened and their short term effectiveness increased. This will lead the debilitating hexes requiring active play (timed targeting) to use correctly.

Please no more buildwars solutions.

Joe

Elrodien · May 10, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Okay how about an insignia were hexes only last half their duration or have a 20% chance of failing?

The half duration would still shut down the hex victim unless removed, but he wont have to sit out most of the game due to a six mile high hex stack.

A 20% chance of hex failure might be a little more risky but avoiding one in five hexes would be worth it wouldn't it?

Perhaps having both mods on a single item/weapon/armour piece?

Perhaps I'm rambling?

pah01 · May 10, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

Okay how about an insignia were hexes only last half their duration or have a 20% chance of failing?

Hex helm was nerfed rightly because 50% duration reduction effectivly made anti-melee hexes useless in PVP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

The half duration would still shut down the hex victim unless removed, but he wont have to sit out most of the game due to a six mile high hex stack.

A 20% chance of hex failure might be a little more risky but avoiding one in five hexes would be worth it wouldn't it?

Perhaps having both mods on a single item/weapon/armour piece?

Perhaps I'm rambling?

Chance of hex failure in equipment that cant be removed is a bit random. Chance based solutions in this case are not the best ones.

Equipment wars is the same as buildwars.

Joe

p.s Hi elro :P

Skuld · May 10, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Elrodien.. the lieutenant's helm was 50% less hexes and that was srs imba, (now available in an inscription that reduces by 20%)

Elrodien · May 10, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Elrodien.. the lieutenant's helm was 50% less hexes and that was srs imba, (now available in an inscription that reduces by 20%)

Well, it was just a thought

The only real hope for balancing hexes now is the introduction of new skills to combat them more efficiently. A share hex spell might be viable were you and the victim share half of the effect of the full hex each.
I can't see how they can change hexes any other way without fundamentally damaging the entire game since hexes have been an intregal part of guild wars since the start.

PS. Hi Joe - haven't seen you online much dude, hope ur still pvping away

Patrograd · May 10, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

The only real hope for balancing hexes now is the introduction of new skills to combat them more efficiently.

Just reduce the durations of the debiltating hexes so that they are similar to the durations of debilitating conditions like blind (somewhere around 10 seconds with a 14 spec). No one cares about the durations of degen hexes, its the price of failure, reckless, faintheartendess stuff lasting forever that causes the problem.

As someone hinted earlier, nerfing GOLE again might be a nice solution also, reduce the bottom end (at 0 energy storage) of GOLE from 10 to 5 and its problem solved imo for the most part. You can leave the top end as is, to facilitate the higher cost ele skills that Anet seems keen on.

Patccmoi · May 10, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I wrote a little more detailed post about my views on current hexing meta on gwo and i'll paste it here:

Personally my take on hexes atm is this:

I'm totally fine with pure degen hexes, even Reaper's Mark (it's elite and in SR after all). The reason is that those DO NOT require a removal to beat them. LoD, Heal Party, Dwayna's Kiss, those are all counters in a sense and i'd never waste a hex removal to drop Conjure Phantasm off someone over a debilitating hex. So for those honestly i don't see much change required.

For the debilitating/punishing hexes, i think that nearly all of them need a serious duration nerf along sometimes with a recharge and energy cost reduction (so that they're still good).

Example of changes to see what i mean:

Faintheartedness i'd put it 5/1/5 but last 5..10..11s. This way you can apply it often, but it takes a lot of your casting time to keep 2 melee in it all the time AND you're much more subject to stuff like DShot, Diversion, etc.

Price/Spirit of Failure i'd put them 5/2/10 and last 5..10..11s too.

Blurred Vision could be 10/1/10 and last 4..9..10.

Reckless Haste could be 10/2/15 and last 5..10..11.

Empathy i'd raise the damage to 15..51..63 per swing but lower duration to 1..6..7s.

Backfire i'd switch it to 10/2/10 last 5s.

Migraine to 5/2/5 and lasts 5..10..11s.

Spiteful Spirit to 10/2/5, lasts 5..10..11s and you could even slightly raise damage (cause energy/duration is hurt) by about 5 at each level.

Switch Mantra of Persistence effect (for example illusion hexes last 5..17..21% longer and cost 0..2 less energy. So the persistence is more about you being able to keep casting them than the hexes just never ending! 20% longer isn't much but it's a small buff similar to 20% longer enchant and along with the energy return it'd be worth having imo)

And along with that, slightly reduce the recharge of single hex removal (for example Remove Hex to 5/1/5, Holy Veil to 5/1/8, Deny Hexes to 5/1/10 and Convert to 10/1/15. I wouldn't really tweak those that have an effect too much cause the effect itself is sometimes worth it, like Smite Hex, Shatter Hex and HEV)

What's the idea behind all this?

3 points really.

1) Make hexes require a dynamic play. You're not throwing something that lasts forever on people, you have to use your stuff when it's required. If you throw Faint on a guy that's not even in hitting range, it'll be nearly over by the time he gets there so it's a waste (unless you care for like 30 damage of degen). You have to check who you use it on and when, so that playing a hexer requires more awareness and 'skill'. Hexes like Empathy and Backfire would also be much more interesting if you can use them often and have them hurt hard but NOT last long. Empathy at something like 57 damage a swing can truly punish a warrior in Frenzy that get caught in it even if he just swings 2-3 times before he switch to rush (that's around 230-350 damage) BUT it won't last long, so you can wait it out if your monks are pressured too much.

2) Remove the whole idea of 'cover hexes'. If your hexes last 5..10s, you DON'T cover them, honestly it's just a pointless waste of casting time (and if you need to cast more often, casting time becomes precious) and energy. So single hex removal becomes MUCH more meaningful as they're more likely to hit the good hexes more often, and garbage hexes that are just there to cover (i'm looking at you Parasitic Bond!) won't take skill slots anymore, allowing more versatility on hexer bars so that hexers become much more interesting to play too (cause it's lame to play against a curse necro, but you ever played one? Talk about falling asleep after a few games).

3) Remove the necessity of REMOVING hexes. If a hex lasts 10s, you don't absolutely need a removal. You can also interrupt the next recast and it'll go off by itself. Those that last longer than 10s should be pure degen ones and those also don't require a removal, they can be healed through.

I think a global change like that would greatly help the hex metagame. Hexes would be much more fun to play as they'd become more dynamic and much less frustrating to play against as you won't have teams fully buried under hexes since they won't last enough. Interrupts will also become much more meaningful against hexes as they have to be recast over and over and interrupts tend to reward player skill.

And even for PvErs it'd be good. Mobs tend to die very quickly and having strong effect lasting for a lower duration but at a lower energy cost/recharge is much more interesting.

Wasteland Squidget · May 10, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

I have some issues with your specific skills, but I like the idea in general.

Migraine, Faintheartedness, and Price are all crazily good at the spec you listed. In general, stay away from 5e spammable hexes that shut down a target. Otherwise, you create this bad situation where I'm spamming Faint on recharge to keep both warriors permanently hexed, and removal can do nothing about it because they're reapplied so fast.

For this idea to work at all, hexes need to be expensive enough (or have long enough recharges) that you can't keep targets shut down throughout the game. You should need to choose exactly what period you want to shut down your targets. If hexes are cheap enough to spam continually, you can just keep reapplying them and all your change has done is make hexes immune to removal.

Patccmoi · May 10, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I have some issues with your specific skills, but I like the idea in general.

Migraine, Faintheartedness, and Price are all crazily good at the spec you listed. In general, stay away from 5e spammable hexes that shut down a target. Otherwise, you create this bad situation where I'm spamming Faint on recharge to keep both warriors permanently hexed, and removal can do nothing about it because they're reapplied so fast.

For this idea to work at all, hexes need to be expensive enough (or have long enough recharges) that you can't keep targets shut down throughout the game. You should need to choose exactly what period you want to shut down your targets. If hexes are cheap enough to spam continually, you can just keep reapplying them and all your change has done is make hexes immune to removal.

You're right about energy cost, they shouldn't all be lowered so much. I agree that most should stay 10E. I wanted to make sure that they remain worth it, but the reduction in recharge should take care of it, and emanagement can be settled either by using emanagement elite so you can spam, or just use them wisely (after all that's what Dom Mesmers do most of the time. They rarely use their stuff on recharge).

Price, Faint and Migraine at 10E with those stats would be fine i think. They'd become quite expensive to keep up if you want to keep targets hexed as much as possible. Keep in mind that it'd come along with a reduction to the recharge of single target hex removal too, and to apply cover hexes every cast when they last 10s would be VERY expensive so they'd be much easier to remove in general.

Genova · May 11, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Well, pah01 (or Joe), I think you should maybe take an outside view of the game and try to understand my points instead of making it sound like if I want buildwars. Thanks for the laugh though.

Here we go. What is buildwars ? Having to run a specific skill / build to counter another specific skill / build. Can you tell how a skill that is versatile and usefull in a lot of situations promote builwars ? Most of what I proposed are from a design point of view. If you can't view outside of GW box, then we can't have an interesting discussion. That being said, I'll try to answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

We need monks because of active prot skills. We also need heal party/light of deliverance somewhere. Monk hex removal is best in game. If rits had good removal then this would encourage secondary rits.

Like other classes used secondary mesmer, I still don't see your point. What I was refering to is the fact that you can't run something else. Do you think that having to run both monks and warriors in any game promotes diversity ? I guess not. Even though I like the protection line, the fact that it is mandatory should make you aware of some imbalance (most likely spike damage).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Buildwars. We dont want to HAVE to run ritualists as well as monks just to counter hexes.

I don't understand. Being able to run monk/ritu, monk/monk or rit/rit backline is bad ? If the meta is more about hexes you will adapt and bring the right skills. If it is in monk line you take monk, if it is in rit line you take rits, if it is in <insert class here> you take it, don't fool yourself.

Monks are already good enough, but rits have no hex removal at all, but are stronger vs conditions, even though all there skills involve meeting some conditions unlike monks. I was wondering why the game need to be like that if we want balance. If rits were to be an interesting alternative to monks, they need the tools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

We want monks because Monks have a robust skillbar that rewards active and skillfull players.

Yeah, and now it is skill. Instead of saying that you want monks at all cost, why aren't you proposing an alternative to make ritualists, different but as functional and rewarding player skill as monks ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Dervishes avatar of melandru giving immunity is gay. The existence of this avatar is what makes nobody bring blindbots. No more buildwars solutions.

Lol, I wrote that avatars are a bad idea to begin with. However from a design point of view, can see that :
- Attackers get shutdown by blindness, but since condition removal isn't a problem, we can just forget it.
- Attackers get shutdown by hexes, but hex removal/interruption isn't strong enough actually. Instead of buffing hex removal or nerfing hexes why do we not use a class that is stronger than warriors under these conditions ?

The fact that nobody brings blindbots (and I guess a blindbot bar require skill to begin with), prove that the game is evolving and is not static. I don't see what is wrong with that. What is good a blind skill when facing a casters team ?

Even though I agree that immunity is "gay", using a stance to reduce hex duration sounds like a good thing because :
- attackers need their stances for IAS and movement, since they don't stack
- attackers waste energy that isn't used for attack with defensive stances.
Dervishes are holy warriors (from a lore perspective) and they have energy, that's why there are the class that could use such a skill effeciently
- hex breaker already exists, but is powerless against fast recharge cover hexes

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Assasins are probably the most passive class to play in offense. Attack power bonus like Lyssa ?

Since you have to time your attacks to get use of the bonus I think that it will make them useful for something else than hitting SP, 1, 2, 3, etc... repeatedly. This could make them more useful than warriors at killing/pressuring overextended casters (since assassins have low armor, their targets should be overextended casters, not monks) with long cast like eles and necros because for now, in a 8v8 fight they don't have much in their favor. For sure you can interrupt casters, but interrupts don't make things get killed. Assassins need to be feared like warriors are feared but for other reasons, like being always ready to kill stuff in their range since they don't use adrenaline.

How having to use your brain to time a skill use, knowing that your team can't assist you (reaction delay) and that your job is to look at opportunities to kill targets so bad ? It is like mesmers, you time your diversion on a skill use, but for assassins it should work differently to respect the philosophy of the class. The difference is that :
- Avatar of lyssa is pure melee so casters are aware of his presence
- The skill is usefull even if the caster isn't casting making it more versatile
- Lyssa is the goddess of mesmers and assassins (hence reference to avatar of lyssa)
- Death is still the best utility out there in the game

On a side note, did you see that I said I don't like this solution much and proposed something else ?

Quote:

No thank you. The problem is not Hex based degen[except maybe reapers mark needing a little recharge nerf].

Tell me if I'm wrong but I always thought that one way to counter degen was to have same or higher regen ? However in this game regen is nearly useless. I don't see how degen skills require more skill to use than regen ones to justify this state.

That is another design difference between monks and ritualists. Ritualits have a lot of regen skills, so I guess that the devs wanted them to be able to stop massive degeneration (recuperation, recovery, weapon of warding, spirit light weapon), but it doesn't work because ritualists are still broken. Making spawning power add x pips of regen to spells (and weapon spells) will have the same effect than divine favor (but slightly more efficient in the long run), and hopefully make their primary attribute useful for most of their skills. Right now, only minions and spirits beneficiate from it, making it useless for non spirit spammers ritualists.

Quote:

No more buildwars solutions
No more buildwars solutions
Please no more buildwars solutions.

No more : I want only monks and warriors because only these classes are core and reward skill. The state of the game today is like if devs are out of control, it seems that they lost the concept of the new classes, and don't how they should be to balance them to be different but functional, hence expending the game. That's why, while I agree that most of you know the game better than I do, most also don't seem to know what should be done to promote balance. Guild Wars have and will always have a shifting metagame, so buildwars (take advantage of the current meta and maps) will be rampant no matter what.

The real problem for me, is that there is still not enough alternatives to make nearly all "seemingly balanced" builds viable when the metagame shifts heavily. You need to change your whole team build to counter it instead of making simple adjustements to fit your playstyle. And this is what the game should be I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), a team may be good a running 8v8, splits, pressure, spike or whatever, and stick to this style whatever the current metagame is. Only the skills will vary from time to time according to your needs, but all primary professions in the build should stay the same if they had a strong and coherent enough concept which fits the style of your team.

/2 cents added. Already sad, thinking of the next answers.

pah01 · May 11, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

If you could choose another melee class that is stronger against hexers you would have an option. Something like a stance linked to the primary attribute that reduce hex duration, i'm thinking of dervishes here since they already have conditions' immunity, and the idea of avatars isn't so good to begin with.

If skills like nature's renewal were easier to use without hearting so much your teambuild, it could be good too. What about a tranquility spirit for hexes (in spawning power maybe, so non ritualists can't abuse it) ?

These are your very BUILDWARS solutions from the previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

1. Lol, I wrote that avatars are a bad idea to begin with. However from a design point of view, can see that :
- Attackers get shutdown by blindness, but since condition removal isn't a problem, we can just forget it.
- Attackers get shutdown by hexes, but hex removal/interruption isn't strong enough actually. Instead of buffing hex removal or nerfing hexes why do we not use a class that is stronger than warriors under these conditions ?

There is a very Buildwars solution in your next post.

Ok I want to play now so I will just explain a coupla things quickly instead of exhaustivly covering every point.

A. The problem WITH hexes are debilitating effects. Like Price causing Miss, Migraine causing spell lengthening as an example of something that hurts a caster.

We want Those hexes to play similarly to Shame and diversion as then it would require SKILL to use them effectivly.

B. Buildwars = 1. Rock Paper Scissors 2. Buff Skill, Buff Counter , Buff Skill cycle.

Joe

Genova · May 11, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

It seems that making several distinct ideas into one single post makes it too confuse. What I'm saying is that there is a conceptual problem with the new classes. Since it is unlikely that they will be removed, why not make them interesting alternatives to the core ones ? You are still not answering here. You keep talking of buildwars, when I am trying to talk about the real intention of the devs when implementing the new classes and why it seems that they failed. About your point implying that all skills should require skill to use, there is already an answer to this, so I will not go further here.

To be more specific about debilitating hexes (which isn't the point of my posts), I agree with you and the above posters to a certain extent. However you can't make migraine act like diversion or shame because it is not the same spell. Whatever you do, the design of the skill makes it useful the longer it stays on the target, and same goes for degen hexes. Reducing cost and recharge only makes it be casted twice often, nothing else. Either you decide that those kind of spells should not exist because they require no skill, either you deal with it.

On a side note, do you really think that there is so much difference between a warrior and a dervish ? Both are melee classes, so their role is nearly the same, and the gameplay don't vary much. Why do you think that exchanging a class for another because it is stronger under certain circumtances (require less support while being weaker overall) invariably promote buildwars ? What's the point of having classes, we should all play with warriors and healing signet...

Patrograd · May 12, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

However you can't make migraine act like diversion or shame because it is not the same spell. Whatever you do, the design of the skill makes it useful the longer it stays on the target, and same goes for degen hexes.

While I dont have an issue with migraine, or indeed the whole illusion line, the point the poster is making is that it is probably almost as nasty a hex to have land as diversion or shame, both of which only last six seconds. Personally I think that the illusion line is actually balanced quite nicely by need to run mantra persistence, which is extremely energy intensive and requires quite heavy spec into three atttribs (FC, illusion and inspiration). Curses necros are the exact opposite of this, they have built in energy management and only require spec into two attribs, both of which can be maxed. There is no equaivalent to mantra persistence meaning the skills can be eternally spammed

Quote:

On a side note, do you really think that there is so much difference between a warrior and a dervish ? Both are melee classes, so their role is nearly the same, and the gameplay don't vary much.

The gameplay between a warrior and a dervish is hugely, hugely different imo. The way you play it just isnt the same at all.

Essentially, the game has lost balance with each new skill and each new class that has been introduced. The impact of factions was pretty small on the whole as the vast majority of factions skills were garbage from a PVP perspective. This meant that after a few skill balances the meta settled once again into something approaching reasonable balance by the time Nightfall came out. The release of Nightfall however broke the game completely. Someone seems to have decided that releasing chapters that had minimal PVP impact (like Factions) wasnt good for revenue streams, and so they have released a chapter packed to the brim with skills vastly more powerful in a PVP environment than anything which existed beforehand, what is usually referred to as "NightFall power creep". 18 months ago the game was about skill and strategy, now it is about build. It used to be that you needed to sacrifice defence in your build if you wanted offence, and vice versa, now you can have both heavy offensive pressure and masive defense. It used to be that each and every skill choice was an agonising either/or decision, now this just isnt true.

GvG has gone from being an intriguing strategic matchup to being about who can blow up who the fastest, MMORPG for the twitch generation. To say it sucks would be the understatement of the century, many of us are only continuing to play through loyalty to the original product, which was superb, and through force of habit. It stopped being fun a long, long time ago though.

pah01 · May 12, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

It seems that making several distinct ideas into one single post makes it too confuse. What I'm saying is that there is a conceptual problem with the new classes. Since it is unlikely that they will be removed, why not make them interesting alternatives to the core ones ? You are still not answering here. You keep talking of buildwars, when I am trying to talk about the real intention of the devs when implementing the new classes and why it seems that they failed. About your point implying that all skills should require skill to use, there is already an answer to this, so I will not go further here.

I dont want to talk about the real intentions of the devs. The class designers failed to introduce balanced classes that actually have a role to play outside of gimmickness.

If I was Izzy I would have cried when I saw the concepts of the newer classes. They suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

To be more specific about debilitating hexes (which isn't the point of my posts), I agree with you and the above posters to a certain extent. However you can't make migraine act like diversion or shame because it is not the same spell. Whatever you do, the design of the skill makes it useful the longer it stays on the target, and same goes for degen hexes. Reducing cost and recharge only makes it be casted twice often, nothing else. Either you decide that those kind of spells should not exist because they require no skill, either you deal with it.

I am for reducing duration and recharge / not cost. Blind is 15 energy. Reworking the hexes so they need to be targeted and timed, not used on recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

On a side note, do you really think that there is so much difference between a warrior and a dervish ? Both are melee classes, so their role is nearly the same, and the gameplay don't vary much. Why do you think that exchanging a class for another because it is stronger under certain circumtances (require less support while being weaker overall) invariably promote buildwars ? What's the point of having classes, we should all play with warriors and healing signet...

The dervish is a button mashing class. While it does require some element of skill because to play melee effectivly you do need some, it effectivly is a class which is too strong for some time and then useless for the rest of the time.

See patrograds post, it expresses some of my sentiments exactly.

Joe

Wildi · May 12, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Some people think (anet included) that weakening a skill until it can't be abused by multiple primarys will create balance, but balancing a skill for multiple characters leads to imbalance for a single character. How would it create balance after that skill became weak for a single character ? As long skill stats don't scale with party size a fair and real balance will always be impossible to achieve.

Patccmoi · May 12, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

The dervish is a button mashing class. While it does require some element of skill because to play melee effectivly you do need some, it effectivly is a class which is too strong for some time and then useless for the rest of the time.

Personally i don't agree with that in general. I mean, Dervishes have some interesting skills and abilities too and can be used well. I don't think the concept itself is bad. There is ONE skill that screws it all and it's Avatar of Melandru (and grenth before but now it's kinda so-so). The problem is that ANet isn't willing to switch it apparently, they keep doing small tweaks but it doesn't really change anything. They should realize that Avatar of Melandru's concept is bad.

Personally i use a D/A in our current GvG setup that i like a lot and that i don't think is button mashing at all. I can't say that it takes more, less or equal skill to play than warrior but i had to improve how i play it quite a bit over the games before i did it decently and i have to switch targets ahead of prot like any warrior does and unload my skills at good times too. Dervishes can't just hit their skills on recharge cause they don't have infinite energy to do it either if you plan to use any kind of utility (unless you have tons of enchants ending on you all the time, but that's like a warrior that's under Dark Fury/Weapon of Fury, they can spam adrenal skills like mad).

I think that a lot of people are generalizing new classes as 'bad concept' and all that mostly because there is 1-2 builds or little details about the classes that are broken and that basically 'define' the class now cause they were broken for so long and never truly fixed. Like how Grenth was there without a change for SO long, and how Melandru is still there and still quite strong cause condition immunity is stupid and doesn't have a place in the game. For Paragons, the 'global unstrippable defense' part was stupid, but Command and Leadership are quite nice. I think that Spear base DPS is retarded for a 1 handed range weapon and that their armor is too high though (should be 65-70 base, they have a shield), but see that's stuff they should've just realize fast and CHANGE IT. Not a bad class concept so much as the inability to tweak what was required in time. The longer they leave it as is, the hardest it'll be to change because of the PvE side where every nerf is seen as a cataclysm.

Same for Assassin, the class concept wasn't that bad. The lead-offhand-dual combos doing big damage could be nice, and a mix of shutdown hexes along can make for a good class. Problem? They decided to add more straight duals which lead to the 'straight kill combo' idea which IS retarded and left the Lead-offhand-duals deficient while they could've been interesting for pressure and strong, constant mini-spikes. And the shutdown skills part in Deadly/Shadow Arts remained vastly unusable. And they need to understand that radar-range shadowsteps are retarded. Any shadowstep going further than aggro bubble shouldn't exist, and shadowsteps on non-assassin tend to be quite broken and some sort of drawback could've been added (lose all adrenaline + non-attack skills disabled for 3s for instance. Along with limiting range to aggro-bubble, i think that it'd have made Shadowsteps a lot more balanced in PvP).

Ritualists i tend to agree now that they were a little screwed up but it's mostly because of all the requirements for every skill and that they tend to make them too powerful when the req is met cause of it. Weapon spell concept is nice, i don't see anything wrong with 'enchant-like' spells that can't be stripped BUT can't be stacked as long as you balance them accordingly. Ashes is innovative and COULD have been interesting if more of them are actually worth it (PwK, GwT and AwS are atm... that's about it. And why are they? For AwS cause the effect holding is truly powerful but ok for elite, and PwK + GwT because they have a good effect while holding AND when dropping, making them versatile skills with dual use. Giving dual use to other ashes could make the whole ash concept much better. For example, let Grasping was Kuurong make you impossible to knock while holding and knocks around when you drop, etc.). Spirits... not really well done concept imo. Attacking spirits with effects are nice imo (Dissonance, Disenchant, etc.) but those with high damage are kinda dumb in general and global defense spirits is as bad as global defense chants. Global defense in GW is a bad concept in itself imo unless it's easily strippable or stoppable. If defensive spirits had Earshot range for instance, then interrupts would've been a much better counter and they wouldn't have needed to be butchered like they were.

I think that the new classes aren't really bad concept and i think that most of them could be fixed to be made more interesting quite easily without switching all that much. The problem is that ANet doesn't seem willing to truly alter something about them and when it takes too long the class is already categorized as 'gimmick trash' when maybe 90% of the class isn't (thinking of Dervish mostly) but 1-2 stupid builds are and those are all that see play cause, well, they work as gimmick.