Curse

zakaria · May 16, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Base match making on average team rank. For example, if an r3 team, an r5 team, an r7 team and an r9 team all enter at the same time, the r3 and 5 team will face each other while the r7 and 9 team will face each other.

You are encouraging a lot r9+ to hide/dissolve in low ranked teams to make their possibilities of rolling other teams better.

Quote:

Make losses incur a fame penalty equal to the amount that swung in the balance for that match. For example, a loss on your 5th match would incur a 6 fame penalty, while a win would award 6 fame.

Say i run gimmick team build and i know my chances of beating 5th map is very low, wouldn't i (team) just /resign and be happy with my 10 fames after 4th map and repeat the whole process again and again ?!!!

You are encouraging more fame farming, addition to that you are creating massive hole between tough maps and HoH, ppl will sit for hours on HoH with no opposite teams to fight because teams are /resign in the middle becasue they are afraid of losing their gained fames in next map.

How are you gonna deal with players that are quitting fights in the middle (like closing GW), is the system will gonna deal with them as a losers and subtract fame penalty from them or not ?
If yes --> nobody will gonna play HA if you obligate them to stay
If no --> everyone will gonna do this when they find that their teams are losing.

GG

B Ephekt · May 16, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

You are encouraging a lot r9+ to hide/dissolve in low ranked teams to make their possibilities of rolling other teams better.

Yeah because encouraging high ranked players to play with lower ranks is clearly a terrible idea. How could I have been so stupid.

Seriously, wow.

Quote:

Say i run gimmick team build and i know my chances of beating 5th map is very low, wouldn't i (team) just /resign and be happy with my 10 fames after 4th map and repeat the whole process again and again ?!!!

People have done this in the past and continue to even now. IWAY use to farm the first few maps and resign, spiritway often only farms the first few maps before losing. The entire point is that losses meaning something would discourage this because losing on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th maps would slow down the farming process. You can't really farm fame reliably when you're having fame subtracted for losses.

Sure you can get 10 fame by winning the first 4 maps, but a loss on the 4th means you only get 6 fame. If you go in again and lose on Underworld you've only netted 5 fame. That's not really what I'd call farming.

It's a lot better than having player go in with mindless builds and c-spacebarring wins until they lose, because the only consequences of losing are starting over at 1 fame wins.

My suggestion isn't perfect, nor am I'm not claiming it to be, but the point is to place focus of how "good" someone is on merit rather than how long they've been playing. As it is now, and has been in the past, you don't actually have to be a good player to be high ranked; you only have spend a lot of time playing. This mechanic is inherently flawed, and needs to be changed for tombs to stop being such a huge joke.

zakaria · May 16, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Yeah because encouraging high ranked players to play with lower ranks is clearly a terrible idea. How could I have been so stupid.

Seriously, wow.

I'm just stating the effects of your idea (it doesn't have to be bad effect), others said you are converting HA to GvG, on the other hand I'm discussing (not attacking) other issues.

Quote:

People have done this in the past and continue to even now.

As far as i know no one is doing this, every team is taking his chances even if it was low to reach HoH or near to it, spiritway and SF teams actually win HoH even in peak hours. spiritway/SF teams are targeting HoH as you do also.

Quote:

IWAY use to farm the first few maps and resign

You are talking about old days of tombs ?because i never saw teams doing this since faction released.

Quote:

spiritway often only farms the first few maps before losing. The entire point is that losses meaning something would discourage this because losing on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th maps would slow down the farming process. You can't really farm fame reliably when you're having fame subtracted for losses.

so you are killing any chance of friends or guild to have fun by playing balanced builds and lose also ?!!!your idea is something like doctor have patient has regular headache and his solution was to chop his head off to solve this problem once and for all !!
If you are solving problem of fame farming gimmick teams try to see the effect of this idea on other true beginners players. You are preventing any devoted team to get better in HA because they are getting penalty for each time they lose. seriously did you think of that before ?

B Ephekt · May 16, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

As far as i know no one is doing this, every team is taking his chances even if it was low to reach HoH or near to it, spiritway and SF teams actually win HoH even in peak hours. spiritway/SF teams are targeting HoH as you do also.

Spiritway only works because it can overwhelm bad teams. They farm as many maps as they can, then just reenter when they lose. These builds don't promote skillful play, and they really just make it pointless to run balanced builds. Why bother trying to become a better player when you can just run spiritway and get 10+ fame runs over and over? It's slower than actually becoming a good player and playing balanced, but it allows even the worst players to gain fame at a steady rate.

Quote:

your idea is something like doctor have patient has regular headache and his solution was to chop his head off to solve this problem once and for all !!

Your analogy is particularly terrible one.

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You are preventing any devoted team to get better in HA because they are getting penalty for each time they lose. seriously did you think of that before ?

My understanding of the term "devoted" would indicate that those teams would not quit because of a few loses. Furthermore, penalties encourage players to become better so they can win more consecutive matches.

I remember when I first started GvGing. I went through a number of r1000+ guilds trying to find players I could learn with. When I finally found those players we took losses (loss of rating can be compared to loss of fame) as incentive to become better. If you rage every time you lose you're not exactly devoted. Players who put no effort into becoming better should not be receiving the rewards in the first place. The current fame system only rewards brainless play and gimmicks.

The whole point is that pvp rewards should be based on merit, not participation. GvG would be pretty retarded if you never lost rating. Everyone would just run crappy gimmicks with no regard for losses - which is exactly what everyone does in HA. Why do you think HA/tombs has always been a gimmick arena?

Living Parasite · May 16, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

I think the clear solution to HA is to give it unqiue gameplay. Atm, it seems like it's trying to be a blend of GvG and AB.

swift88 · May 17, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Uh... i don think there is necessarily a way to fix tomb >.< the broken meta and etc

elektra_lucia · May 17, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

You talk about devotion like I've heard some people mention 'drive'. People have neither and that is why the majority of people suck at whatever they do. Painting, rowing, flying, gaming, cooking, fashion. The majority is just plain -bad-. People arn't going to get devoted. People arn't going to get driven to win.

Your idea fails.

luilui · May 18, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Not many ppl have more than 2 hours a day to play this game, if u dont have a good fl, if u dont have a leader to make the team for u, i'd be surprised if u can find a decent team in 30 min. A good fl is not easy to get if u dont play much. And it takes much longer to make a balanced. that's why bloodspike/iway/vimway was popular, becoz it's easy to play and easier to set up. That's why it's a gimmick arena. There's no reason for a "devoted" player to play gimmick, but there are lot of reasons for casual players to play gimmick. And there are a lot of them.

not everyone play this game is aiming to be the best gw player. atm it's fine. A casual HA players can just go in with crappy build and go farm uw, get a few fames and he'll be happy; a good player can go in with good build and get more fames.

Lord Mendes · May 18, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

HA is better now than it ever was, plus the noob FoTM builds are actually quite powerful compared to the old ones. Balanced builds still beat shitty gimmicks, and I am very happy.

Nurse With Wound · May 18, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

HA is better now than it ever was, plus the noob FoTM builds are actually quite powerful compared to the old ones. Balanced builds still beat shitty gimmicks, and I am very happy.

I agree. HA is at its peak since Nightfall release. People complain too much about minor things, instead of enjoying the game. Balanced can go through all the maps ( yes, including killcount ) and win every match.

Also, paragon-based builds are much more dangerous than old gimmicks ( iway, bloodspike ), giving newbs easy build to run, that can actually win with medicore teams.

I don't really see what else can be 'improved' apart from the usual lack of proper skill / class balance. I wouldn' t cry when killcounts would be removed ( especially courtyard ), but played well you can win with spike gimmicks at those as well. Objective rotation in HOH ( while plagued by some randomness ) successfully discourages pure 'lets skip to halls and hold for hours- zero damage builds ". There are some balance issues with overpowered skill combinations , used by FoTM builds, but HA was always FoTM arena, so nothing new in there.

While theres still place for some improvements ( we need DP in HOH, killcount on courtyard sucks, also new, improved maps would be a godsend ), HA is doing well.

Death_From_Above · May 19, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

People complain too much about minor things, instead of enjoying the game. Balanced can go through all the maps ( yes, including killcount ) and win every match.

Also, paragon-based builds are much more dangerous than old gimmicks ( iway, bloodspike ), giving newbs easy build to run, that can actually win with medicore teams.

I don't really see what else can be 'improved' apart from the usual lack of proper skill / class balance. I wouldn' t cry when killcounts would be removed ( especially courtyard ), but played well you can win with spike gimmicks at those as well. FoTM arena, so nothing new in there.

HA is doing well.

Sorry i would have to disagree with many of these points. The idea HA is even almost doing well i think is proposterous. I also have to refute your first point about people complaining to much about minor things instead of actually enjoying the game. For many you cannont enjoy the game, you could back before anet ruined HA but its not possible now. I and many have tried it just pure sucks. Do i find myself applying as much skills in macthes as i would like to, nope, do i find myself having as much fun, nope. People wouldnt complain if their clearly wasnt an issue. I for one wouldnt be neither would the many people i know. We would all be playing HA instead hence why you hadnt heard of many people on this HA section untill 6v6 came.

Fact of the matter is though, these things are not minor and as much as i would like to take ur advice and play rather than complain. I think i would prefer sitting in a cardboard box for the rest of my life than do that. I would also have to disagree with your point on balanced teams can get through all maps. Well yes you can win some maps including kill count but HA was not and never was just about winning. It was about enjoying yourself on the way, putting in skill. Iv had macthes like far on in HA were iv fought with my team so hard against good teams that its actually left us all at our comps sweating. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but either way you enjoyed it and did not regret the macth because what you got was fun from it. With kill count you dont get that fun because you spend 4 minutes running around and 1 minute fighting woot.

Secondly it depends on luck now as to how far balanced can go. If you get to say dark chambers and you meet a full pargon team in most cases if i recall, if your running a balanced your often going to get boiled over. Unless you have the stuff to say counter them but from memory that stuffs quite difficult to take down with a balanced. Also, newbs owning experianced players seriously this cannot be right. Iway and b spike were less experianced players playing gimmicks, but experianced players were able to still beat them. And rightly so they should be able to, after all thats the whole point of the learning curve isnt it. This didnt mean however these teams did not stand a chance as yes they could beat these more experianced teams.

Lastly although HA has its share of FLOTM no matter what happens in it. I believe with the older alter holding system. You saw a larger build diversity and infact i would say you say 3/4 non gimmick and 1/4 gimmick builds in HA. Thats my observation, of course this varried though depending on the time. Also you often found with the alter capping system (aka how tombs was then), that gimmick builds were often weeded out at around dark chambers and scared earth. So halls was not as gimmicky as it is now but rather the opposite being more flamboyant and original.

Lord Mendes · May 19, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

HA is better now than it ever was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Fact of the matter is though, these things are not minor and as much as i would like to take ur advice and play rather than complain. I think i would prefer sitting in a cardboard box for the rest of my life than do that.

Anyone see a pattern?

Look man, I would love to indulge you in a game of quote wars but I won't for the obvious reasons. Kill count does have an element of luck involved but is about positioning and knowing how to put your enemies in an awkward position without screwing yourself over.
Running balanced builds is still an option, you just have to know how to run it, which makes this statement

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Do i find myself applying as much skills in macthes as i would like to, nope

very funny. My guild ran a build with 6 different professions the other night (mesmer included) and I can honestly say that it works and we had some great games.
Well, at least I'm having fun and you're not, right?

defrule · May 19, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Aion Online

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B Ephekt · May 20, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Mendes and Nurse, I usually agree with you both on a lot of things. I just can't stand tombs anymore though - the meta is bad, kill count is annoying, the level of play is pretty low (in my opinion). I know balanced can work, it's just not fun fighting aoe spam and spiritway on every other map. It's bspike and IWAY all over again, just different builds.

tomcruisejr · May 20, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Mendes and Nurse, I usually agree with you both on a lot of things. I just can't stand tombs anymore though - the meta is bad, kill count is annoying, the level of play is pretty low (in my opinion). I know balanced can work, it's just not fun fighting aoe spam and spiritway on every other map. It's bspike and IWAY all over again, just different builds.

Not fun too fighting the same RA noobs on every other map up to 10 and watching the same/similar builds being played in GvG observer. And it's not fun too to see the crappy Hall of the Heroes icon in observer mode everytime i press B. Its not fun facing the same group of pve monster whenever I zone, clear them out and rezone. It's not fun.

GuildWars is not fun anymore. Hu hu hu

Bread Fan · May 20, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

GuildWars is not fun anymore. Hu hu hu

For once I actually agree with Tom.

Lord Mendes · May 20, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Mendes and Nurse, I usually agree with you both on a lot of things. I just can't stand tombs anymore though - the meta is bad, kill count is annoying, the level of play is pretty low (in my opinion). I know balanced can work, it's just not fun fighting aoe spam and spiritway on every other map. It's bspike and IWAY all over again, just different builds.

Well, my point is that HA isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and for the first time since nightfall release I actually had fun running a proper balanced build in HA (not some crappy 3 monk crap).
And tbh it was not like there was no diversity (SF, gay spikes, thumper pressure, panic, etc), it's just that there are some team builds and character templates that are boring to play against, which is exactly how it was when altars were around (chokers anyone?).
I mean sure kill count is gay, but so were altars. As long as halls remains multiple objectives (and the objectives are made less retarded), I think they can do whatever they want with broken and courtyard, the better team will generally come out on top with a balanced build.

Randomway Ftw · May 20, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

I mean sure kill count is gay, but so were altars. As long as halls remains multiple objectives (and the objectives are made less retarded), I think they can do whatever they want with broken and courtyard, the better team will generally come out on top with a balanced build.

Kill count is a lot gayer than altars ever were, its amazing that Anet still refuses to do anything about kill count despite everyone not liking it.

Divinus Stella · May 20, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

DP should be put back in, the only builds which i think are balance issues are paragon spike and searing flames.

Paragon spike wouldnt be such an issue, but anet felt the need to nerf shields up, allowing their latest screw up, the 80AL shield wielding ranged tank with huge passive defense to spike even better.

Fire eles are just stupid, its pressure for retards and theres no shortage of retards in HA.

The popular thumper/trapper build with n/rt healers is pretty popular but not really that dangerous, can take a while to kill as it has a lot of defense but its only popular in the same way iway was, because you can play it without knowing how to play guildwars and without vent.

One thing that does annoy me about HA is the matchups, you can have a full run starting with the normal easy wins on the first 3-4 maps against the no-vent thumper teams, then they start getting more fun at dark chambers and sacred temples where you can face high ranked teams with uniqiue builds and decent tactics.
Then you get to halls, most people would assume that all the best teams end up in halls, but instead you are faced with some average pug playing the usual scrub necro build and a 3rd team that has no clue what to do, usually one of those thumper teams without vent that skipped from underworld and just sticks to one team the whole match regardless of objective just because they have no idea.
Wouldnt it be better to skip teams from later maps into halls rather than tards from the first maps?

Gimme Money Plzkthx · May 20, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Yea, the skips are pretty lame, but as long as they keep killcount in, causing nobody to play HA, they will happen. On another note, they should probably clock about 10 or 20 damage off those ritualist spike skills.