Curse

Lord Natural · May 18, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Seems like a good idea to me. For GvG the top guilds get rewards (infrequently), there's the HoH chest, and then there's AB faction... But what about the gap in-between? There are more than a thousand guilds who have no shot at anything in GvG, a lot of players that HA who won't get frequent access to the HoH chest, and then there's RA/TA with basically no reward system at all, despite TA having more potential than HvH. The game's economy would probably get thrown out of whack, but I'd love to have SOMETHING to do with faction, other than watch it sit at the cap forever.

Nekretaal · May 18, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Yet these people are essential -- to survive and grow, pvp needs to have people who are willing to play, even knowing they may lose a lot. try out new builds, and earn unlocks.

Finally somebody sees the light.

For everybody who says pvp is dead today, the reason for this is that, for the last 18 months or so, the pvp community has been incredibly hostile to the low level players.

The general pvp community kicked out the next generation of its players: players who might have been good at pvp but joined too late (around the time of Factions or later) ran into a brick wall and then left. Players of the type who like to pvp once pvE gets boring... tried pvp, didnt like it, and left.

The elder community has been incredibly hostile to anets attempts to bridge the gap on this issue: the elder community hates easy to use skills of a moderate power that arent overpowered but can still score kills for a low skill player, the elder community loathed the decisions to place altars on early maps, and then to eliminate them, the elder community loathed 6v6 which allowed more teams to form, and the elder community on these forums widely deride Alliance Battles even though they are a sucessful pvp format.

Even on something that brings pvE to pvp, like double fame... the elder community hates it and not because it unessessarily inflates titles, but because the HA community hates the "noobs" who rush in for the weekend who dont know how to play great and stick to cookie cutters.

So you cant say anet's done nothing, because anet has done stuff. The community though, rejects anets attempts to bring more players to pvp, and in some cases, precisely because it does bring more players to pvp.

So the OP, comes up with an idea of rewarding pvE players for pvp that, while its supposed to bring in low level players, seems to reward most elite players who play the most pvp all day and are great at it. But is it a bad idea?

What can be given to players that (1) will incentivize pvE player to play pvp even though they will lose a lot (2) will not imbalance pvp by attracting bots and (3) will not imbalance pvE due to an incredible amount of (gold or gold evivalents) being flushed into the system. This is very delicate.

Recall wintersday pvp. In year one: the winning team got shards, the losing team got spiked eggnog. People loved the format. Both shards and eggnog were relatively useless though. In year two, the winning team got shards and "Skillz" title and the losing team got spiked eggnogs which were now easily salable for 500g (and were better than the shards which were still useless). People were leeching and/or intentionally tanking games until this was removed. Adding rewards essentially tanked the format.

Somebody else suggested Gold: but it is a lot easier to get faction than gold.. post farm nerf. Playing the game normally (missions, with 7 players)generates a little over 1k/hour + a non-sold item or two. Why do we want to puninsh playing the game normally and force everybody into farming (or pvp) by flushing the game with gold? Anet is trying its damnest to deflate an overinflated economy because thats what PvE needs badly right now.

Not to mention that, in the past, botting formats like RA for faction was not uncommon (remeber those monks that would put mending on everybody and then never move?). Obviously any type of reward should have something like the "faction cap" mechanic to prevent botting of the fort aspenwood variety. But making gains afk farming capped hasnt stopped afk farming.

My tweak to Blame the Monk's suggestion is that these rewards for pvE players to go into pvp must primarily benefit the pvE players who try pvp and not just the hard core elite pvpers (which is what his suggestion, essentially a varient of the "reward me for what I'm going anyways so I can buy a 15k armor without ever having to play PvE" suggestion that always resurfaces on pvp threads here).

How about pvp give rewards of PvE-only items: such as: experience Scrolls, Sharkfin & scalefin soups, or even hero armor? The potion-like items turn out to be pretty useful in hard areas in pvE. Vanquishing Hard mode seems to be even harder without taking advantage of a shrine or scroll... (event items like 4 leaf clovers are especially helpful). I'm not 100% sure that the dp reducing items ought to be included, but with the new 60% dp==loss mechanic... even they might not be game breaking. They would have no value to the merchant, and wouldnt inflate a pVE economy that, honestly needs some deflation right now.

That would be a start, and might help. But the real problem is the community.

Problems like: purposefully gimed classes that result in RA leavers when no monk arrives, Community being especially rude to players trying out unusual skills, HA groups not taking pugs [period] (except for the one dude looking for a R12), elite pvp community shunning of alliance battles, and GvG taking an hour to form... these are all issues that are more important to fix when talking about pleasing those players who dont pvp all the time.

Anyways, anet is moving in a direction where pvp is turned into an even smaller "members only no newbs allowed" club (for example pvE skins rewarded for pvp characters), so I would not expect Blame the Monk's suggestion to be implemented for the reasons he proposes.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 18, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

Finally somebody sees the light.

For everybody who says pvp is dead today, the reason for this is that, for the last 18 months or so, the pvp community has been incredibly hostile to the low level players.

The general pvp community kicked out the next generation of its players: players who might have been good at pvp but joined too late (around the time of Factions or later) ran into a brick wall and then left. Players of the type who like to pvp once pvE gets boring... tried pvp, didnt like it, and left.

This is such a common misconception that many people tend to use. During any period within GW history there were always the different tiered players, no one forced any out. More or less expansions/skill balance/cost/ time sink/current state of GVG has been killing players of slowly but surely.

urania · May 18, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

@nekretaal.
no generation was ever kicked...if one WANTS to makeit into the good teams, one will have to spend some time improving one way or the other...for example, by starting off with reading threads about builds/strategy here on this very forums and then testing builds, adapting them and maybe just play around a bit till one gets the hang of it.
no one wants a nub, but nubs can turn into decent players if they set their mind to it.
it will take some time, but it's the way things work and whining over the fact good teams refuse to play with nubs is useless.
and most of the pvE community just isn't up for sth that'd take time, unless they have friends/guildmates who can teach them and help them around by giving them advice etc.
I started of as a pve'er thinking it was leet for an ele to have a pet (i had one for a long long time before actually starting with pvp..and still kept it on ele after a few months of TAing =D). I also sucked at start, but after month or 2 in a particular area of pvping, u start to see who's good and who isn't and that's how one's "way" towards playing with good teams starts.
But if most shone from initial failure, then that's their problem, really. Expecting the "elite" pvp comunity to welcome a nub with flowers and candy is ridiculous. Earn respect by skillfull playing and u'll get candy then.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · May 19, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

I actully really like the 1faction=gold, but instead of 1 it should be 10, otherwise i THINK id screw up the economy?

anyways, /signed

Vaga · May 19, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

It is more likely that they are going to spam the forums because they just don't want to pvp at all and want the rewards removed. And even if they like it, they soon find out that:
a) they can't play HA in a decent group because they have no rank
b) can't get into a decent guild because there is no way to find a guild ingame
c) even if they find one, the guild probably won't want them

Err the point of adding rewards is so that they can go and PvP and despite being bad still get some kind of reward for doing it.

DutchSmurf · May 19, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Err the point of adding rewards is so that they can go and PvP and despite being bad still get some kind of reward for doing it.

And is there anyone here who actually thinks our dear pve-players will be happy with that? As you said, even when you are bad, you can get a reward. But that doesn't make pvp more fun for the big part of the community that HATES pvp. While they don't hate farming at all. The original point was that we need more people to play pvp. The rewards were a suggestion to get that. I think that won't work at all. And I don't think the effects of real rewards (so not faction=gold, but something more) is something we should want in any form of pvp. And even worse is rewards for losing.
Really, they should give you points for your lucky and unlucky title in RA instead of gladiatorpoints, that might actually work. And more important, fits the theme.

Xanthar · May 19, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

The idea of crossover PvE/PvP rewards is an excellent one. I have long found it odd that you need to PvE in order to buy sigils etc. But that is besides the issue:

Giving out PvE-usable rewards in PvP will add an allure to PvP that has not previously been there for many players. I think that there are plenty of players that might just as well "farm" the arenas as they would ettins etc. if there was any kind of comparable reward. This would increase the mass of players that participate in any kind of PvP-related gaming and serve as an expanded recruitment base higher level PvP.

The actual reward structure itself might be debated ad infinitum, but I do believe that it should reward winning in any PvP format more than PvE farming. Why? Because that would provide enough incentive for many to try out PvP - And when you start winning more than you lose, you might even turn a profit from it.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 19, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

Giving out PvE-usable rewards in PvP will add an allure to PvP that has not previously been there for many players. I think that there are plenty of players that might just as well "farm" the arenas as they would ettins etc. if there was any kind of comparable reward. This would increase the mass of players that participate in any kind of PvP-related gaming and serve as an expanded recruitment base higher level PvP.

You see, this is exactly where the failure begins, from the very first strand of "Why do you want to PVP?"
If a PvP game needs to allure people into the PVP format there is a problem already. I just don't see how giving rewards of any kind will actually transpire into a better STATE of PVP for anyone, not only that, but how many of these new comers will actually crossover to the higher tiered PVP format(GVG)? Which is what we really want, and it's what Guild Wars really needs.

TheOneMephisto · May 19, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

You see, this is exactly where the failure begins, from the very first strand of "Why do you want to PVP?"
If a PvP game needs to allure people into the PVP format there is a problem already. I just don't see how giving rewards of any kind will actually transpire into a better STATE of PVP for anyone, not only that, but how many of these new comers will actually crossover to the higher tiered PVP format(GVG)? Which is what we really want, and it's what Guild Wars really needs.

If you can get people to start and continue playing, I'm sure that enough of them will actually get good enough that they will want to continue playing. Guild Wars just isn't fun if you keep losing with no reward, and keeping players playing until they're good enough to enjoy it and start winning can't be bad.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 19, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

If you can get people to start and continue playing, I'm sure that enough of them will actually get good enough that they will want to continue playing. Guild Wars just isn't fun if you keep losing with no reward, and keeping players playing until they're good enough to enjoy it and start winning can't be bad.

Have you really thought about what you're saying though?
Most people that enjoy PVP are ones that enjoy competition, these people stick around, roll around in the dirt,get punched/kicked get back up and keep going.

The target audience we are trying to attract, just doesn't share or have the above character trait. Which is why we have a problem in the first place, among other design/development flaws currently within GW's.

Going beyond that, there is only so much you'll actually learn in the lowered tiered PVP formats, that once you've done ALOT of that, you still need to stick it out in the higher tiered format.
If we are trying to get people who want an ingame reward such as a gold item, over a reward that most standardized PVP players already share, such as winning=reward, and just playing in general gives experience as a reward, which in turns eventually makes you better. WE as a PVP community are already at a loss. Grasping for that last straw.
My argument simply is, that if we need PVE rewards to attract PVE'ers to PVP, it just simply still will not work because of the different characteristics each have, the problem stems deeper than some rewards, it's a mentality change that needs to occur.

Farin · May 19, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I like it yeyeye

tomcruisejr · May 19, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

1,000 gold consolation reward per PvP loss (HA, gVg, TA, RA, AB, HVH, etc) will be beneficial to people who hate farming pve imo.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · May 20, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

1,000 gold consolation reward per PvP loss (HA, gVg, TA, RA, AB, HVH, etc) will be beneficial to people who hate farming pve imo.

/roll100 anyone?

TheOneMephisto · May 20, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Have you really thought about what you're saying though?
Most people that enjoy PVP are ones that enjoy competition, these people stick around, roll around in the dirt,get punched/kicked get back up and keep going.

The target audience we are trying to attract, just doesn't share or have the above character trait. Which is why we have a problem in the first place, among other design/development flaws currently within GW's.

Going beyond that, there is only so much you'll actually learn in the lowered tiered PVP formats, that once you've done ALOT of that, you still need to stick it out in the higher tiered format.
If we are trying to get people who want an ingame reward such as a gold item, over a reward that most standardized PVP players already share, such as winning=reward, and just playing in general gives experience as a reward, which in turns eventually makes you better. WE as a PVP community are already at a loss. Grasping for that last straw.
My argument simply is, that if we need PVE rewards to attract PVE'ers to PVP, it just simply still will not work because of the different characteristics each have, the problem stems deeper than some rewards, it's a mentality change that needs to occur.

I don't know about you, but I first got into PvP because I enjoyed winning faction in RA. I didn't begin liking PvP for the sake of PvP until I started winning more and more, when I actually became motivated.

LuckyGiant · May 20, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I would like to request the devs add better PvP rewards, and specifically, better PvP rewards for losing.

people who are average or below average, there is almost no rewards from playing pvp at this time. Faction means little or nothing and they have a small chance of winning halls, earning a prestigious title/rank, and so on. Yet these people are essential -- to survive and grow, pvp needs to have people who are willing to play, even knowing they may lose a lot. The middle and lower class MUST thrive for pvp to work.

Totally agree that PvP needs to grow its lower and middle pvp class for the better of the game.

Couple of things though:

Gold should not be earnt in PvP (even though its pretty much a joke atm)
In my opinion PvE and PvP should not affect one another, especially since there is a growing seperation between the two types.

Balthazar faction is the base reward system for PvP. It should stay that way and not be able to be turned into gold currency. (Yes I'm UAX and have no need for faction...150 tournament tokens and counting lol) By that I mean you shouldn't be able to sell/trade additional faction earnt.

On that note, it would be nice if there was something to do with additional faction. For starters I thought it could be used to purchase guild hall upgrades, pointless to top guilds who change halls every few matches, but its still a fun use. This system could involve donating faction to the guild with a progress bar for each NPC, for example merchant 12500/20000 faction so all players can donate to an NPC to try to pay them off. Also guild halls should be able to be purcahsed using faction (NOT through the buying of a sigal though)

The main difference with middle/lower pvp players is that balth faction is the reward for these players while to others it means nothing, such players will not have all skills unlocked and so gaining balth for skill unlocks is the reward for these players.

The aim of the game is to win. The main problem I see with the system you suggested is that you are rewarding/providing and incentive for people to lose, this shouldn't happen. As to rewarding the lower/middle pvp players to provide incentive to play I'm not sure there is an appropriate solution. Its kinda just how most things are expected to work - the better you rank/win than someone else the more the reward.

All in all I think there are enough rewards or incentives for lower/middle classes to play PvP. Its my belief that the problem you mentioned lies with how PvP and the community has evolved. No one likes losing and the poor lower to middle class guys that are neccessary to the sucess of PvP do not need to be continually demeaned. Of course theyr not going to keep playing if people go off at them everytime they play PvP. Its the elitest attitude thats developed because the games been out for 2 years. Positive criticism is needed instead of "bashing" tell the mending wammo to try testing watch yourself and heal sig instead of mending & heal breeze rather than saying "insert generic 10 year old sayings here"

Bankai · May 20, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

One change.

You gain only half the gold in RA.

It's too easy for non-skilled people to win in RA.

Xanthar · May 20, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Most people that enjoy PVP are ones that enjoy competition, these people stick around, roll around in the dirt,get punched/kicked get back up and keep going.

You are making a faulty assumption in attributing your own attitude to all PvP:ers and more importantly, to all presumptive PvP:ers. It clear that all people currently doing PvP in GW did not start out that way (me for example) and that there is a certain percentage of PvE players trying out PvP and liking it - In effect moving their focus from PvE to PvP after some exposure. Reasons for that change in focus may vary, but in my opinion, the reasons are not important; the only thing that matters is what people actally do in-game. So moral arguments about what is the "right" motivation to play PvP don't fly.

If the "joy of playing" were reward enough, then the same argument for adding rewards to PvE would work excellently. Which it might, but I'd think it's safe to say that the retention of players in a rewards-free PvE game would be worse than it currently is. If we apply the same logic to a PvP reward system, we might end up with better player retention. And even if we don't, I fail to see what harm could come of it.

red orc · May 20, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Since you have personal accounts now, every gvg a person participate in should account for something.
I dont think rewarding ppl for loosing is a good idea, but rewarding them for winning is.
a pvper that played 1000 games in the last 6 months cnnot efford even to invite another person to the guild (he needs 100 gold). If he leave his guild he also has no title or recognition of the deeds he performed. Contrast this with HA that for every dumb winning fight Vs poorly exercised fotm fight you get fame, or to RA which rewards you with glad points for 10 win.
A gvger should get gold + recognition to carry around for his gvgs.
Also gold is a must since creating a guild involves tons of gold.

Servant of Kali · May 20, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

dont think rewarding ppl for loosing is a good idea

You dont reward them for losing, you reward them for PARTICIPATING.

In other words, how many new players are going to go into Team Arena, if they will only get something when they win? Are they REALLY gonna bother? They answer is no. Neither would i. Am i gonna play GvG if only top10 guild get something? Haha right. Am i gonna play HoH if only the winning team has a chance to get something?

There are tons of people who are interested in very casual playing, but they have no motivation and rather spend time in boring PvE farming. These people are not interested at being #1 in GvG or in HA, they just want to have some fun along the way. When you go in PvP and lose, you get absolutely nothing. When you go to PvE and lose, you still get stuff you picked along the way. That's why for a lot of people casual PvPing is really a waste of time. You spend whole day PvPing, learning how to play, getting smacked, and then end up with zero gold. The guy then thinks "if i farmed these 10 hours i wouldve earned tons of cash". And so he goes a-farming.

In Prophecies, you didnt even have titles (except HA). There was no incentive to play. Sure, some liked PvP and had fun, but overall a lot of players simply ignored PvP, and would rather farm whole day, because at least after farming they had something. After PvPing they had nothing, and the 'joy' of winning few games in RA doesnt last long.

BTW i made a poll before on another fansite (nomina sunt odiosa), and there was a significant portion of people who would play PvP if there was a point in it (and by 'point' i dont mean the joy of winning).