Curse

Blame the Monks · May 04, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Well, we are about 4 months into the HvH marketing push. What do you think about HvH? Do you want to see anet continue to push it, or would you prefer they focused on other areas?

This marketing push reminds me of how the NBA somewhat pathetically tries to pimp women's basketball by giving WNBA players cameos in the all star game, forcing you to read WNBA headlines on the NBA website, and so on. The marketing people of the NBA don't seem to get that the reason the WNBA hasn't taken off is no one is interested in the product, not because it hasn't been hyped enough. It seems similar in GW -- anet desperately tries to get people interested in HvH by paying people to play, giving it rewards/a ladder, and now even trying to juxtapose it with the gvg tournaments. And much like the WNBA, no one cares because the product is flawed.

It seems to me HvH was part of anet's plan to promote more PvP, which is a good thing imo. I believe they thought HvH would attract more people to pvp because HvH doesn't have as high barriers to entry as GvG yet would be more fun than RA. It would also make pvp more casual for the pvp crowd. And yet it hasn't -- PvPers don't like it because the standard of competition is so poor, pvpers don't like fighting bots, and the gameplay is boring (cap and run, yea yea yea). PvEers don't like it because they don't get any meaningful rewards out of it. Much like AB, HvH has failed to bridge the gap between pvp/pve or stir up more interest in pvp in general.

IMO, rather than continue trying to pimp a product no one wants (HvH), anet should try to pimp a product people DO want -- casual GvG. PUGs have proven there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people out there right now who would like to GvG more often, but can't. PUGs of varying skill level show this just isn't limited to the high end community -- many noobs like to pug as well, both to get better at the game and just to have fun. Anet has tried for months to stamp out pugs because of so-called ladder manipulation, but pugs still thrive. Why? Because people like GvG -- its the most balanced, most strategic, and most prominent feature of the game. Tons of people would rather gvg than anything else, but just don't have the people online to play atm.

Why not promote the flagship of the franchise? Why not make the cornerstone of the franchise more accessible to the masses -- eliminate the faction system, eliminate the guild switching penalty/14 day wait, and create/promote some kind of PUG system -- maybe a better matchmaking system to help people form pugs, or maybe even a random type system. Anything to promote gvg style play, not the crap like AB/HvH. To attract PvEers, scale up the GOLD rewards of pvp to the point where successful pvpers earn more gold per hour than a farmer and the pve crowd will come over in force. Of course, something would have to be done to prevent PUGs from displacing organized teams, but perhaps a seperate ladder could do that.

What do you think?

Burton2000 · May 04, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Ive played quite a few HvH battles and im in the top 100 atm after playing the tournaments and my honest opinion is that I like hero battles.

One thing though about the tournaments is that a lot of casual/pve players enter them thinking they will play people of similar rank and then get raped by the higher rank ones and that puts them off pvp.

About the standard of competition being poor i'd say that it is the complete opposite in the top 50 and competition will become even better now with ATS and proper rewards coming in.

pah01 · May 04, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

HvH probably isnt that bad. However I think that thge time would be much better spent fixing game balance for GvG and encouraging people to play it.

A PUG system with rewards would be a great way to get people into GvG.

Its a shame for ANET to create more gametypes to spread players out.

GvG is the best part of guildwars. I agree with blames sentiments.

Joe

Shadow Kurd · May 04, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

The only complaint i have about HB is that is takes ages to get into a battle, further form that its P.E.R.F.E.C.T.

Patccmoi · May 04, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

HvH is for a different crowd, just like AB is for a different crowd. A lot of people just like playing on their own and were just in RA before for PvP, and now they got HvH and they actually love it. Don't expect it to become something many high level PvP players want to do. But they're pushing it for another crowd. Just like i don't see how you can say that AB is a failure as tons of people actually love it. Casual players, often mainly PvErs, but that like going there and battling other people with no real pressure, being able to screw up and die and not have it matter much, etc. There's always people ABing or playing in Fort Aspenwood, it's far from a failure, it's just not geared toward high level PvP players and the fact that nobody you know plays/likes them doesn't mean they don't have their place.

Would i be happy if they put more of thoses ressources in GvG? Yes. I'm dying for something that'd help people GvG more easily and get into GvG more easily too. I do believe that GvG is by far the best thing GW has to offer. But i can understand why they're pushing HvH too for another crowd. I wish they would put as much effort into making GvG more accessible and not less too though.

Ankkasika · May 04, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Well, everything ANET has done for HB has turned it to a better direction. Right after the release of Nightfall HB was only a deserted playground of wammos, but now it's actually something and still improving.

Right now the automated tournaments seem to be healing the ladder which previously was farming-only. Hero Battles is a gametype that requires a lot of skill to be high-ranked, even if many people who haven't tried it or see only the surface of it say the opposite. Yes, you can win with some fairly skillless builds, but now the tournaments are making the skilled players able to rise in rank without grind.

If Eye of the North will make everyone able to play HB, i think it will rise in popularity again. (i see many worse players stopping tournament play quite fast, because they lose bad when they lose in tournaments, but that will also only enhance gameplay for the better players)

Syntonic · May 04, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I thought the prevailing condescending sentiment was that Anet wanted people to buy Nightfall. As for no one wanting HvH, it seems there are at least a few HvH'ers out there so I'm not terribly sure the negative stance on HvH being unwanted is all that accurate even though I personally have little interest in it. It's hard to say if Anet's new game types are spreading people out or just filling or simply attracting new players not associated with any form of PvP in to something new.

I wouldn't mind a shift of focus on GvG and making the bar of entry much lower though. An automated tournament/ladder environment for GvG pugs doesn't sound half (edit: forgot this word) bad until you realize that's more or less what HA was probably supposed to fill.

FoxBat · May 04, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

HvH is pretty darn popular with the ladder now, and meshes very well with the ATs. Try to get 8 guildies online for 4 hours, or go in solo for 2? You tell me which works better.

HvH has become very popular with the ladder, with at least as many playing as GvG, and will become moreso as it's the easiest way to farm reward points, which can be put to use in any PvP mode. Whether it's any good at high-level play has no bearing on these facts.

Riotgear · May 05, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

They're pushing it hard because it's a Nightfall feature and it's easier to push sales of the most-recent chapter than older ones.

I honestly wish they'd just do a team-matching system and revitalize AB, which has always had more potential for serious play (in terms of game mechanics) than running around with three AIs.

Bankai · May 05, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

I like HvH, I'm just currently not playing because I detest spiritway.

Patccmoi · May 05, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Squidget made me notice yesterday that if you watch the top of the HvH ladder, you actually see a couple of names from top GvG guilds too (like Tommy and Legendary Battousai are on first page), so some DO like it.

One thing i think would actually be nice though is allow for this game mode to be entered with full team. Without hero. Not necessarily with a ladder and it could be separated, but i mean the HvH maps and system is actually a pretty fun one. I'd prefer it to TA for 4v4, it would be a nice change with some fun maps and objectives and honestly with real 4 players team it could be quite challenging. The reason i don't like it as much atm is that you have to rely on AI which limits what you can do in there (some builds just don't work for AI).

urania · May 05, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

If i want to play with heroes, i go pveing.

bringing heroway to pvp and buffing it into oblivion i simply ridiculous, since i (and very likely also the majority of pvp oriented players) am one of the ppl who enjoy playing with real players and not with some controllable AI...

instead, anet should buff TA for a change which deserves a huge promoting more than hoh or hvh, cause it simply demands more skills from an individual player instead of some running around, nuking each other with aoe spells, spiking, capping and "leet" control of the npc's, who just happen to be imba when it comes to interrupting and similar stuff. (:

tomcruisejr · May 06, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I think you forgot to mention one thing about HvH. It is a pathetic joke arena because the skills you bring there are balanced for 8vs8 (GvG).

Epinephrine · May 06, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

It's cognitive dissonance. They believe in HvH because they're invested in it. HvH has sucked since its conception. If I wanted to play an RTS I'd have bought one, and trying to sell it as 1v1 is a joke.

unmatchedfury · May 06, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

If i want to play with heroes, i go pveing.

bringing heroway to pvp and nerfing it into oblivion i simply ridiculous, since i (and very likely also the majority of pvp oriented players) am one of the ppl who enjoy playing with real players and not with some uncontrollable AI...

statement fixed.

I disliked the amount of gimmicks there where in HB. Due to the fact that IM not 2x more skilled than most other players chances are if i played an equally skilled player who used a gimmick build I would lose. THis i found frustrating and I havn't bothered to HB lately.

Ekelon · May 06, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Here's my .02 cents.

I LOVE the automated tournaments. The smooth match-ups are great and the experience is awesome. And I'm saying this even with the fact that the swiss-style match-ups aren't exactly "randomized" because you pretty much know who your fighting next and also the fact that I lose -25 Rating every tournament match and only gain +2 rating per match.

Zui · May 06, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

To be honest, I have no problem with them adding Hero Battles. They apparently feel the need to add non-cometitive PvP formats with each chapter and claim that they're new exciting and somthing competitve players will love. I do however have a problem with them offering it the same support as GvG. If any format deserves the same support as GvG, it'd be HA or TA, a non-random AB or HvH without any Heroes. Not HvH.
There are serious flaws with the HvH gametype that lends it to being a poor competitive game-type. A really, really big part of that is Heroes. Their AI is horrible. Even if their AI was very good, though, it's highly dboutful that a Hero could actually best a player in a 1 vs 1 situation. Especially if that Hero is out of the radar range of the player controlling it(if it's out of radar range, you can't actually make your hero do much of anything). Back to the actual state of Hero AI, though, I just have to repeat that it is absolutly horrible. Not only is it horrible, but the responsiveness to you microing your hero is sluggish, although I think this problem is also compounded by the fact that the AI sometimes doesn't do what you tell it to do at all, in favor of doing somthing else, and sometimes even multiple things before doing what you told it to do 10 seconds ago (Ex: Using a critical skill). I also don't know if the interphase for Heroes is very good, either. Although it's managable, I think approaching HvH from the perspective of an observer-mode like way, but instead of just being able to watch and select anyone, you'd be able to control whoever you select like it was you playing that character(allies only), would be much better than the current format.

I do think that certain problems that would exist with or without Hero Battles amplify the problem with HvH though. The most notable of which is poor design of the new classes for PvP, and poor PvP skill balance.

Mylon · May 06, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

HvH isn't bad now that it's no longer about holding the central shrine. However, 4vs4 gives much more room for gimmicks because there's less room to make a "Balanced" build that can deal with most gimmicks. Especially when the heroes don't know how to deal with specific situations and change their skill usage. They just spam until out of energy...

FoxBat · May 06, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

HvH certainly has things that keep it from being highly competitive, but there's still too many people coming in with a GvG mindset.

Lets imagine that Anet somehow buffed Hero AI to absolute awesomeness, such that Zenmai was able to gank human monks by herself, or Pin Down/Burning Arrow Jin could defeat touch rangers. They played so good it was practically indistinguishable from human players. So you send Jin out of radar range to cap a shrine and they send their Zenmai. Which hero wins? Inevitably the one that has a stronger build. Where exactly is the competitive skill involved with good AIs kicking the crap out of each other? How does Koss' ability to change tactics running a versatile and balanced YAA build prove anything about the skill of the human player? When Norgu dominates your player monk to oblivion, do you really pause and say "wow, Norgu is really good at mesmer!"

Some AI improvements would help like better resistance to ganking when running to a flag, but the biggest thing required is not better AI, but better micro controls. Giving players more control over the entire process is the only thing that will demonstrate player skill. Anything else will be, at best, "balanced" build wars, because all the AIs are evenly matched and have absolutely no skill in the first place. Alot of GvGers want 3 AIs that are as reliable and self-sufficient as human players, but AIs simulating good teamplay is not actual teamplay or skill, and while it may be fun, it isn't terribly competitive.

The idea to jump in and directly control any hero is an awesome step in the right direction that has very little chance of happening. I'd at least like the maps/mechanics rethought such that you never need to send an AI out of radar range without human targeting and micro. Other ideas include controls distinguishing between attack-move, defend-move, and move-no-matter-what for flagging, redesigning the maps to place the shrines closer together so you don't need to split or send AIs out alone to such a ridiculous degree, hotkeys for hero skillbars, some hotkey to target a hero's nearest target to make ordering them easier, some (probably over clumsy) system for prioritizing AI skills in-battle, etc.

Epinephrine · May 06, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

I do however have a problem with them offering it the same support as GvG. If any format deserves the same support as GvG, it'd be HA or TA, a non-random AB or HvH without any Heroes. Not HvH.

QFT - I personally love AB, nearly as much as GvG. Big maps, lots of movement, multiple points to control - it's a really nice setup for some interesting game play, if only it weren't completely random who you end up with (and against). TA is fast paced, but the limited types of engagement make it too gimmicky for my taste (though it's still a fun pass time). In testing the HvH prior to release it was possible to play with human teams (4v4) at which point it was somewhat interesting, but as a hero battle it's pretty silly.