Curse

red orc · Apr 21, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I have not seen pets in gvg for a long time. The last time I saw them was when RAO was introduced but before it was nerfed. Does pet control changes this ? Will we see pets in GVG soon ? If not , what needs to be done ?

Thomas.knbk · Apr 21, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

No.

They need to be able to go above 14 DPS imo.

DutchSmurf · Apr 21, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

The damage is there, but the 'pet control' they added is no control at all. For PvE the current system works great, for PvP it is just lacking. Which is a good thing since pets can do far more damage then a warrior. Only a warrior can place the damage where it should be, the pet can't.
If those calls actually worked on all pets except on only yours, then it would be a lot better already. Same for Otyugh's Cry. That way you would only need to bring one copy of it per team, instead of one per person. And then, with 25% attacking, 25% faster movement, 19 base damage reduction, +24 armor and attacks that cannot be blocked, they might get dangerous. Since then you are talking about 80-100 damage per hit that can't be blocked. But for now the controls just lack to get the damage where you want it. And their first attack takes far too long, but that might be just me.

Zui · Apr 21, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

pets can do far more damage then a warrior.

Wrong.

Warriors deal more base damage than pets do. All of the following figures used do not account for weapon modifications, IAS, or skills used. The targets used were 60al barrels. At 16 Beast Mastery, an Elder pet will deal 13.1 DPS, or 786 DPM. At 16 Sword Mastery, a Warrior will deal 25.59 DPS, or 1536 DPM. At 16 Axe Mastery, a Warrior will deal 26.66 DPS or 1600 DPM. At 16 Hammer Mastery a Warrior will deal 29.35 DPS, or 1761 DPM.

Clearly, players do more damage. Not pets. Although the stated numbers will be different in an actual game due to skills used and action taken both by the player, but by the opposing team as well, they will prove to be roughly proportionate. Although, one can expect Warriors to outperform pets in an actual game slightly more so than they do on paper. This is due to the fact they auto-crit, and pets do not. In addition, they can call things like Blurred Vision, or Blind, and have a higher priority to have those things taken off than a pet does. Lastly, they're not AI, and thus don't do stupid things as often.

DutchSmurf · Apr 21, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Wrong.

Warriors deal more base damage than pets do. All of the following figures used do not account for weapon modifications, IAS, or skills used. The targets used were 60al barrels. At 16 Beast Mastery, an Elder pet will deal 13.1 DPS, or 786 DPM. At 16 Sword Mastery, a Warrior will deal 25.59 DPS, or 1536 DPM. At 16 Axe Mastery, a Warrior will deal 26.66 DPS or 1600 DPM. At 16 Hammer Mastery a Warrior will deal 29.35 DPS, or 1761 DPM.

Clearly, players do more damage. Not pets. Although the stated numbers will be different in an actual game due to skills used and action taken both by the player, but by the opposing team as well, they will prove to be roughly proportionate. Although, one can expect Warriors to outperform pets in an actual game slightly more so than they do on paper. This is due to the fact they auto-crit, and pets do not. In addition, they can call things like Blurred Vision, or Blind, and have a higher priority to have those things taken off than a pet does. Lastly, they're not AI, and thus don't do stupid things as often.

The damage of the pet is in the skills which you can keep using, thanks to Expertise. Those 80+ damage with every hit are great to watch. Pets do have auto-crits btw, but unlike all other weapons, they don't have a fixed damage for them. And thanks to that new screen, you can now see which hexes and conditions are on your pet. But your last part sums up the problem "Lastly, they're not AI, and thus don't do stupid things as often." Although I did find a trick to actually make your pet change targets. However, even with that, beastmasters in 8vs8 just don't work. And probably never will either.

And then beastmasters have some other problems of course. If you want to make one you end with the following:
1) I need a rez-signet
2) I need Charm Animal
3) I need something to rez my pet, either Comfort Animal or Heal as One
4) Just like all weapons, I need an IAS and a speedboost, good thing those are in one skill, Call of Haste or RaO
So 4 skills gone and still no damage. At this point you have no room for both your own skills and attacks for your pet. If you didn't take Heal as One at step 3, there is also no room for a selfheal. If you then look at the attackskills available you see a few that do major damage (Brutal Strike, Enraged Lunge, Melandru's Assault, Scavenger Strike), a few that do a completely random interrupt/condition (Bestial Mauling, Bestial Pounce, Disrupting Lunge, Savage Pounce, Feral Lunge) and a few that do something useful (Ferocious Strike, Maiming Strike, Poisonous Bite, Pounce). Taking Ferocious Strike means we can't take Heal as One. Poisonous Bite is good in a 1vs1 fight or when there is only one monk. Maiming Strike would be good if pets actually could hit something without standing still for 2 seconds first, same with Pounce, although Pounce gets killed by the recharge.
With the few nice skills being not that useful, the only way to go is going full damage. Which means chaining Melandru's, Brutal, Scavenger and either Ferocious, Enraged or some of the others. Until the interrupts become 1/2 second attacks and/or the first attack starting a lot faster, pets won't be worth taking in 8vs8. If only because they block each other all the time while warriors don't.

Div · Apr 29, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Not just looking at base damage, but it is also much harder to coordinate spikes with multiple pets. The fact that the controller of the pet is left fairly vulnerable is also another reason why beastmasters are pretty much useless in GvG. Even with any tricks to change targets, controlling a pet will be inferior to controlling your own character (warrior) to attack. Also, one big problem with pets is the fact that the healers will have to babysit both you and the pet when you have hexes/conditions. Those skills have a lot of high pure damage, but can be more easily shut down than say, a warrior.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 29, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

No one is going to drop their warriors for pets, even with decent pet control. Beast Mastery has several cool attack skills, but lack of a Deep Wound and decent KD options really seal its fate as an effective killer compared to another melee.

As before, you'll see thumpers using pets with a couple beast mastery skills thrown in. There are actually some cool things you can do with them now that you can lock their target. Send 4 pets chasing after the flagger with a couple Maiming Strikes and you'll slow down their running or even force a kill. On certain maps, it's possible to send the pets into the base to eat the outlying archers. Of course, locking your pets target at the flagstand is pretty useful too, since it becomes easier to hit with stuff like Bestial Mauling.

SaintGreg · May 28, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

On certain maps, it's possible to send the pets into the base to eat the outlying archers.

I've tried this and sadly the pet controller himself has to be damn near in aggro range of the target in order to lock his pet on, otherwise the pet will just stay limp not doing anything. I suppose its better that way because druids isle pet gank would be pretty ridiculous.

Div · May 29, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Thread necromancy ftw!