Curse

tomcruisejr · May 22, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

For now I'm going to assume that you compleately ignored the main point of my post because I didn't state it clearly enough. So let me do that for you now.

Simply put, gimmick is easier to run and makes a team improve less then a versitile, balanced build.It has nothing to do with playstyle. A balanced build is one that can spike,pressure, and split effectively. cow(bad example btw, they lose to alot of low ranked guilds) and iQ beats teams that are unkown because they are BETTER then them.

Also, gimmicks are nurfed by anet(rarely) because they use imbalanced skill synergies
and premote poor play and let bad players get higher rank.Ideally, in a compleately balanced metagame, everyone will play verstile builds because they will not be able to win through gimmicks, overpowered builds, or general buildwars.

We won't be able to reach a point of agreement because we have different definitions of "balanced".

My opinion/definition = different builds that have different strengths and weaknesses and equally have the chance to defeat each other through thought process, skill and coffee.

Yours = Having a single, matured supposedly "hard to run" build(or variations) that naturally defeats any other builds and is used as the only gauge of determining player skill.

Also someone said that gimmicks are easier to run than balanced but a good balanced team will always and forever defeat a good gimmick team. So I have a question. Will the ones running the gimmick require skill to defeat the balanced team, since the odds are always against them? It's not a matter of running a build, you know. It's a matter of winning the game when all the odds are against you and that takes some thinking to do i think. What do you think?

Anyway, running balanced or gimmicks depend on your playstyle man. If you think that learning how to program PHP, play Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze or walking your dog outside, biking or sunbathing at the park is more important than a computer game but you kinda like guildwars, youll run gimmicks coz learning to play and master balanced takes too much time.

assassin of the god · May 22, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

We won't be able to reach a point of agreement because we have different definitions of "balanced".

My opinion/definition = different builds that have different strengths and weaknesses and equally have the chance to defeat each other through thought process, skill and coffee.

Yours = Having a single, matured supposedly "hard to run" build(or variations) that naturally defeats any other builds and is used as the only gauge of determining player skill.

Also you said that gimmicks are easier to run than balanced but a good balanced team will always and forever defeat a good gimmick team. So I have a question. Will the ones running the gimmick require skill to defeat the balanced team, since the odds are always against them? It's not a matter of running a build, you know. It's a matter of winning the game when all the odds are against you and that takes some thinking to do i think. What do you think?

Anyway, running balanced or gimmicks depend on your playstyle man. If you think that learning how to program PHP, play Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze or walking your dog outside, biking or sunbathing at the park is more important than a computer game but you kinda like guildwars, youll run gimmicks coz learning to play and master balanced takes too much time.

No, my definition of balanced is a build that can be varied in playstyle. i.e can pressure,split, and spike effectively. It has nothing to do with difficulty of playing, just that gimmicks are generally easier to play because the players only have to run a certian playstyle. The mesmer in a caster spike is easier to play then a mesmer in a balanced build because he only has one mode: spike.About the rest, yes I think that playing in a versitile build is the guage of skill, as mashing buttons in order or loosing doesnt seem to be. Sorry I didn't clear that up. Now you want to present some legitimate points?

Also, I suppose you and I have fairly different definitions of fun and/or accomplishment. Assuming two people are spending the same amount of time playing a game, one becomes good at the game and another uses the "cheat code" (lets just say they are playing GTA or something) and beats the game with little effort. Who had the most fun? Well, that depends, but I would say the first one has the most fun and the second is simply playing for the sake of playing.

tomcruisejr · May 22, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

No, my definition of balanced is a build that can be varied in playstyle. i.e can pressure,split, and spike effectively. It has nothing to do with difficulty of playing, just that gimmicks are generally easier to play because the players only have to run a certian playstyle. The mesmer in a caster spike is easier to play then a mesmer in a balanced build because he only has one mode: spike.About the rest, yes I think that playing in a versitile build is the guage of skill, as mashing buttons in order or loosing doesnt seem to be. Sorry I didn't clear that up. Now you want to present some legitimate points?

If that's your definition of balanced then what do you think of say 8 necros that can pressure, split and spike effectively? or 8 ritualists than can do those 3? or 4 warriors 2 cripshots and 2 necros (We did funky funny things with IWAY back then, not just in your face rapage)? Are they balanced?

Assuming that those I mentioned can pressure, split and spike effectively or so so.

Give me an answer and I will not bug you anylonger.

assassin of the god · May 22, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

If that's your definition of balanced then what do you think of say 8 necros that can pressure, split and spike effectively? or 8 ritualists than can do those 3? or 4 warriors 2 cripshots and 2 necros (We did funky funny things with IWAY back then, not just in your face rapage)? Are they balanced?

Assuming that those I mentioned can pressure, split and spike effectively or so so.

Give me an answer and I will not bug you anylonger.

To an extent. Generally, however, builds that can do all of those things without using versitile characters abuse overpowered skills or game features(all those you mentioned). Although, if a team can pressure and split proactively with obs spike or blood spike, well you gotta give them a little credit.

And I jumped instictively to last page and compleately missed Ensign's post, which was extreamely good.

tomcruisejr · May 22, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

To an extent. Generally, however, builds that can do all of those things abuse overpowered skills or game features(all those you mentioned).

Including the current acceptable gvg meta?

Gimmick builds maybe are ideally meant to counter, through extreme dmg, pressure, the usual balanced but certainly those builds arent impossible to defeat coz they aren't as flexible as the latter. Good teams, as someone said, won't ever lose (or lose less) to [prenerfed] gimmicks. When IWAY GvG was at its prime (via Sweetie Animal Girl) in GvG and basically raped everybody but War Machine and EvIL. We all know what [eF] did to [prenerfed]sb/ri ran by [iQ] and EvIL did to Orbspike by the Rifts. Or what War Machine to what i consider Gimmicky tactic by LuM(when they decided to completely counter WM's build). So yea, it all boils down to good teams running balanced defeating good teams running gimmick and to turn that around, the gimmick team must put effort. But when you nerf gimmicks and keep the balanced setup untouched, everything will boil town to good balanced teams and mediocre(or sometimes bad) balanced teams defeating good teams running gimmicks.

Back on topic, thinking pvp as being dead is subjective.

InfernalSuffering · May 22, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Gimmick - an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.

Balanced - the power or ability to decide an outcome by throwing one's strength, influence, support, or the like, to one side or the other.

(taken straight from dictionary.com that seemed most apt)

Just the proof that this arguement can be held is proof that gw pvp is not dead. As long as people can discuss strategy and the fact there is strategy left to discuss proves pvp is not dead. Is it dying? Maybe for some people, but people who get bored and leave the game is expected if not liked. I do not play even in the top 100 so maybe my opinion doesnt count much but as I already stated for me pvp is not dead and is dying. Maybe thats because I'm hitting a point that most hardcore pvpers hit a long time ago (just went UAX on mes, ele, para and close to r3) but this may be close to the most fun I've had in pvp and I have no intention of letting it die for me so easily. I hope you all have the same ambition.

You just got tomahawked · May 22, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

As long as I still get the thrill of the upset when you beat MOJO or CCCP, then PvP is not dead. As long as IWAY is not revived, then PvP is not dead.

You know how I know that PvP is dead from your post?????????????

BECAUSE YOUR IDOLIZING TWO HA GUILDS THAT DONT EVEN DO GvG!!!! Seriously if you won against freaking [eF] or [cow] I might be megearly supportive but thse two guilds don't even do the highest form of PvP yet you are idolizing them??? I win against these two guilds on a regular basis. Sure, it might be a hard fought battle but I don't celebrate when i do. Now if i went up against [cow]'s core and won I might brag but definently not for these two guilds. Nothing against [MOJO] or [CCCP] but in HA don't fear anyone unless they are top 20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Some of you might be referencing such guilds as Te or EviL or WM but does that really matter? The question should be whether or not PvP is dead for you, not whether some guy named Soul Wedding from halfway across the world is having as much fun at his computer in Korea.

Do you realize that these players that played in these guilds are the best player to ever grace the servers of Arenanet? HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION TIME!!! Let's say that there was this administration (president, secrataries, etc.) that like freaking owned. They increased the economy's output by like 958776756943% and made us at peace with everyone in the world. Then, let's say that this administartion was then killed in a freak elephant accident. The country would go into chaos . Anarchy would rule the streets.

You have a good point. So what if this Asian kid doesn't play GW anymore? Back to the hypothetical situation. The county is in chaos. We lost our leaders. So, everyone around you says that we are all going to die but you don't. Does that make a difference? Chaos is happening around you but you think everything is perfect!!!! Does that make you okay?? NO!! IT MAKES YOU IGNORANT!!!

Same exact thing. Our leaders are gone that set how we play([WM][EvIL][Te]). No one is their to tell us how to kite or which skills to use. No one has really stepped up and taken their places (besides [QQ] which is now dead). So, we have no one to teach the newbies how to do that stuff. So, they result to gimmicks so they don't have to learn that stuff. Then, Anet nerfs those. So, since they got their gimmick nerfed they quit because they don't know how to play real builds, which results in a further decline or player base. The quality of play is declining just like the quality of the country was declining in my situation. You can continue to believe that everything will be alright but I won't be ignorant. I'll find a new game that has a better level of skill.

/endrant *wipes forehead* (sorry if someone is too dumb to figure out the realtion between my hypothetical situaiton and the loss of [WM]/[EvIL]/[Te])(Also sorry because I went back and forth between GW and my situation which can make it hard for dumb people to read my post)

InfernalSuffering · May 22, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

You know how I know that PvP is dead from your post?????????????

BECAUSE YOUR IDOLIZING TWO HA GUILDS THAT DONT EVEN DO GvG!!!! Seriously if you won against freaking [eF] or [cow] I might be megearly supportive but thse two guilds don't even do the highest form of PvP yet you are idolizing them??? I win against these two guilds on a regular basis. Sure, it might be a hard fought battle but I don't celebrate when i do. Now if i went up against [cow]'s core and won I might brag but definently not for these two guilds. Nothing against [MOJO] or [CCCP] but in HA don't fear anyone unless they are top 20.

Do you realize that these players that played in these guilds are the best player to ever grace the servers of Arenanet? HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION TIME!!! Let's say that there was this administration (president, secrataries, etc.) that like freaking owned. They increased the economy's output by like 958776756943% and made us at peace with everyone in the world. Then, let's say that this administartion was then killed in a freak elephant accident. The country would go into chaos . Anarchy would rule the streets.

You have a good point. So what if this Asian kid doesn't play GW anymore? Back to the hypothetical situation. The county is in chaos. We lost our leaders. So, everyone around you says that we are all going to die but you don't. Does that make a difference? Chaos is happening around you but you think everything is perfect!!!! Does that make you okay?? NO!! IT MAKES YOU IGNORANT!!!

Same exact thing. Our leaders are gone that set how we play([WM][EvIL][Te]). No one is their to tell us how to kite or which skills to use. No one has really stepped up and taken their places (besides [QQ] which is now dead). So, we have no one to teach the newbies how to do that stuff. So, they result to gimmicks so they don't have to learn that stuff. Then, Anet nerfs those. So, since they got their gimmick nerfed they quit because they don't know how to play real builds, which results in a further decline or player base. The quality of play is declining just like the quality of the country was declining in my situation. You can continue to believe that everything will be alright but I won't be ignorant. I'll find a new game that has a better level of skill.

/endrant *wipes forehead* (sorry if someone is too dumb to figure out the realtion between my hypothetical situaiton and the loss of [WM]/[EvIL]/[Te])(Also sorry because I went back and forth between GW and my situation which can make it hard for dumb people to read my post)

Beating MOJO or CCCP with my guild is a "big deal" because we dont face them often, we dont HA a lot, and quite frankly most of my guild isnt as good as their players. This hypothetical situation does not even come close to applying. We havent lost our "leaders" as you call them. WM still plays if in spurts. Most of the core from Te has reformed to Honk and they play regularly. Heck, I even saw soul wedding back playing for WM. WE HAVE NOBODY TO TEACH THE NEWBIES HOW TO KITE??!?!?! When did anyone from evil, te, or wm come to my guild hall and give me a lesson on kiting? I learned for myself and its not impossible. There are numerous threads about kiting and I think we have the "correct" way down. IMO if they people who are playing gimmicks are leaving good riddance. More percent of the people who want balanced. The truth is that I'm not ignoring the situation, because I dont see the situation in the first place.

bungusmaximus · May 22, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Lol the contradiction between 'We don't do charity we play to win' and 'who learns noobs how to kite' kinda makes me lol, but that's nitpicking. Didn't it ever occur to people that I don't need a 'leader' to tell me how to play? I learn together with a guildie how to PvP properly and it's fun as hell. Of course we fail now and then, but that seems to be part being competitive and all.

Having top level payers around doesn't mean shit to my personal PvP experience. The only thing I need is at the least 3 people that aren't idiots and my PvP experience is alive and kicking. Looks like people have different views anyway how they like their PvP, some people like to play balanced and against balanced al day long, I personally like some diversity (wihout necro's :P).

Blame the Monks · May 22, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Back on topic, thinking pvp as being dead is subjective.

No, not at all -- its completely objective. Count the active top 100 american guilds right now. You can do it with only your fingers and toes.

This isn't another "omzg the sky is falling" thread...the sky HAS already fallen. Months of ignoring the pvp community finally paid off. Now Izzy is free to promote HvH, and most of the remaining pvers may genuinely think hvh is pvp. (Holy shit koss just soloed the other guys zhed; koss is so good at the game)

RIP strategic competitive pvp.

Riotgear · May 22, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

The top players will eventually bleed off just from burnout. People don't continue to play the game forever, they'll move to other things, especially with a game as old as GW.

Which is to say that, while keeping existing players is very important, the playerbase will continue to decline as long as there is no influx of new players. The learning curve is harsher than ever, which is doing a great deal to prevent that. An inexperienced team going into HA, GvG, or even TA is going to get flattened. It's frustrating, and not exactly fun.

Running gimmicks to beat balanced teams may be effective, but I'd be willing to get that players get bored of 321spike, Searing Assassinway, and mashing the Faintheartedness button pretty quickly. It's simply not very engaging, and it's not very educational either. So new players wind up staying at the bottom (skill-wise), they get bored, and they quit.

This is just theory, of course, but given that I work at a computer store and the first shipment of Nightfall STILL hasn't even sold through yet (we're still sitting on a Collector's Edition), I'm led to believe that people aren't recommending the game any more, which would suggest that they're not having fun any more either.

wuzzman · May 22, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

The metagame will become very stale soon. Many people have mentioned this, most "top" guilds just want to play and fight against balance (unless I'm miss quoting). At this point in the game, nerfs suggested by the community has largely been directed at builds that have moved 2 steps away from balance builds (well its really just build no (s) anymore). This will result in a stale metagame in a few more nerf bat swings...congradulations guild wars is finally balanced every one is using the same build!!!
Now the mass exodus from pvp can begin.

You just got tomahawked · May 22, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Beating MOJO or CCCP with my guild is a "big deal" because we dont face them often, we dont HA a lot, and quite frankly most of my guild isnt as good as their players. This hypothetical situation does not even come close to applying. We havent lost our "leaders" as you call them. WM still plays if in spurts. Most of the core from Te has reformed to Honk and they play regularly. Heck, I even saw soul wedding back playing for WM. WE HAVE NOBODY TO TEACH THE NEWBIES HOW TO KITE??!?!?! When did anyone from evil, te, or wm come to my guild hall and give me a lesson on kiting? I learned for myself and its not impossible. There are numerous threads about kiting and I think we have the "correct" way down. IMO if they people who are playing gimmicks are leaving good riddance. More percent of the people who want balanced. The truth is that I'm not ignoring the situation, because I dont see the situation in the first place.

I will go peace by peace in my situation. The leaders of the country represent [WM] [EvIL] and [Te]. The leaders dying equals them leaving. comprende?

and yes I learned alot form Soul Wedding. I watched him. I learned from him. He might not have taught me one on one but he did teach me. Sure, people might post on how to kite but that's far from doing. I see people that regulary post in those threads then I watch them get beat away on TV. If you say you know the correct way to kite prove to me that you do. Inform me.

Sure, you might see them once and awhile but it is few and very far between. Their sparse playing makes very little impact on the meta.

lacasner · May 22, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Running gimmicks to beat balanced teams may be effective, but I'd be willing to get that players get bored of 321spike, Searing Assassinway, and mashing the Faintheartedness button pretty quickly. It's simply not very engaging, and it's not very educational either. So new players wind up staying at the bottom (skill-wise), they get bored, and they quit.

I wouldn't mind playing balanced as well, as long as there were perhaps 10 different variations of balanced instead of 1 repetitive one over and over again. Variety in the style of PvP Guild wars has is key.

Icy DS · May 22, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

The argument over the definition of "balance" is as old as time itself.

Anyway, I will end this thread with the following:

GW PvP died at the time of Factions release.

No more needs to be discussed about the subject.

That being said, everyone go play Hero Battles!

Riotgear · May 23, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy DS

Anyway, I will end this thread with the following:

GW PvP died at the time of Factions release.

It was plenty alive during GWFC. I think the Nightfall release is when it started going downhill, partially from stagnation (hero battles, oh boy), partially from lack of balance updates while crap like Spiritual Pain, RaO, Grenth, Jagged Bones, Ritspike, and Energizing Finale made a mess of things.

Seamus Finn · May 23, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

I wouldn't mind playing balanced as well, as long as there were perhaps 10 different variations of balanced instead of 1 repetitive one over and over again. Variety in the style of PvP Guild wars has is key.

Assuming you can deal with running 2 monks and at least 1 warrior, probably 2... I can think of at least 1 build for every profession(except necro at the moment... maybe wail of doom?) that could fit well into a "balanced build" and be competitive -- Honk is an examply of a guild that runs stuff that is a little left of center and they have great success with it(being good helps of course). There's just a lot of follow the leader going on and people have gotten so build focussed that they attribute their losses solely to build. As time goes by, this results in a single balanced build(or build skeleton).

To be more on topic, I have seen some decent matches popping up on the ATs. Maybe now that the 14 day rule is starting to open up more guilds the ATs will gain popularity. Obviously they could use some work, but they may be doing some good.

InfernalSuffering · May 23, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

I will go peace by peace in my situation. The leaders of the country represent [WM] [EvIL] and [Te]. The leaders dying equals them leaving. comprende?

and yes I learned alot form Soul Wedding. I watched him. I learned from him. He might not have taught me one on one but he did teach me. Sure, people might post on how to kite but that's far from doing. I see people that regulary post in those threads then I watch them get beat away on TV. If you say you know the correct way to kite prove to me that you do. Inform me.

Sure, you might see them once and awhile but it is few and very far between. Their sparse playing makes very little impact on the meta.

First of all, its piece by piece. I comprende quite well the fact that wm, evil, and te represent the leaders of the country but they are not dead. Honk is te. Wm is Wm. Some people from evil are still around. You pretty much could have just angered every top 100 player by saying that none of them can kite effectively...I just watched two iQ matches tonight as well as two Honk(aka Te) matches...they arent dead.

tomcruisejr · May 23, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It was plenty alive during GWFC. I think the Nightfall release is when it started going downhill, partially from stagnation (hero battles, oh boy), partially from lack of balance updates while crap like Spiritual Pain, RaO, Grenth, Jagged Bones, Ritspike, and Energizing Finale made a mess of things.

you forgot to throw in LoD, Crippling Slash, icy shackles, "You're All Alone!", melandrus dervish, etc which are generally thought as balanced but imo is making the game stagnant.

I think that the new releases were promising and aimed not to make the game stagnant. Both of the expansions that you have now were not the same expansions 1 or 2 weeks after you bought them. You know what I mean.

Now, notice who're the players on top of the GvG ladder : those who excel in balanced and those who are trying hard to run it excellently (and will disband one day).

assassin of the god · May 23, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Including the current acceptable gvg meta?

Gimmick builds maybe are ideally meant to counter, through extreme dmg, pressure, the usual balanced but certainly those builds arent impossible to defeat coz they aren't as flexible as the latter. Good teams, as someone said, won't ever lose (or lose less) to [prenerfed] gimmicks. When IWAY GvG was at its prime (via Sweetie Animal Girl) in GvG and basically raped everybody but War Machine and EvIL. We all know what [eF] did to [prenerfed]sb/ri ran by [iQ] and EvIL did to Orbspike by the Rifts. Or what War Machine to what i consider Gimmicky tactic by LuM(when they decided to completely counter WM's build). So yea, it all boils down to good teams running balanced defeating good teams running gimmick and to turn that around, the gimmick team must put effort. But when you nerf gimmicks and keep the balanced setup untouched, everything will boil town to good balanced teams and mediocre(or sometimes bad) balanced teams defeating good teams running gimmicks.

Back on topic, thinking pvp as being dead is subjective.

This makes absolutely no sense, why would a team build against another team if they are clearly better? Gimmicks introduces build wars, and that is exactly the problem. It negates factors of skill, and basicly either you have the right tools in your build, or you are so much better then the other team that you can win otherwise, or you lose.EviL lost to Deer back in the day, simply that despite all their tactical finesse and skill superiorty, they did not have the right tools to deal with them.This ofcourse would be fine if guild wars was advertised as the team with best build wins, but as it said right on the prophicies box, skill over everything.