Curse

Div · May 17, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

The only guild in the US that seems to actually be active is Rawr. God knows why.

GvG is uninteresting when the ladder is meaningless and ATs are flawed, And Tombs has been dead pretty much since release.

However, PvE is a lot of fun! No, seriously, it is. I'm always up for vanquishing Tyria, pst.

RIP and dV are pretty active too I'd say.

assassin of the god · May 17, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Hi, I made this thread to discuss the fact of stagnancy in PvP. Lately, and by this I mean the past few weeks or so, I've been watching a few high-end gvg's and HA in observer mode. It is always interesting to watch these high ranked guilds play, and particularly when I watch them I try to pay attention to the fact what makes them so "1337".

My main gripe and idea of concern is lack of build diversity, where basically Guild Wars is turning into a click-fest. Everyone uses the same build, 3 monks, 2 warriors or so (1 being hammer one being eviscerate), a me/mo, and a e/rt flag runner, and a burning-arrow ranger.

In all types of pvp, these builds are all that I see, and really in a sense they have become really better than other ones. My opinion is that other skills must be changed as well, and that even if 1000 skills exist if only 50 of those are actually better what is the point of having the other 900? My point is, things like this have killed PvP, and hopefully Anet will change this situation.

Anyone agree?

I'm pretty sure that what I'm going to say here has been said multiple times i this thread, but flipping through 9 pages to find it is for someone whos not lazy.

Basicly, what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you thinking? If,in fact, almost everyone was running the same balanced that would be one of the best things that ever happened to the game.This was the way it was when PvP was at its prime (prophicies, after retarded things got nurfed after release). Most teams running similer, well rounded, skill-based builds is a sign of a balanced game where playing skill wins, not buildwars like it is now.The build you stated is simply the most versitile, and therefore one of the strongest builds at the moment. But you are right, PvP is dead, but for the compleate oppisite resons you stated. Game balanced blows(hexes, I'm looking at you!), amoung other things contributing to the death of high end PvP,mostly stemming from ANet not caring about PvP/ not giving proper support, and there are reletively few teams actully running balanced builds like you say.

P.S: Who r u?

Steps_Descending · May 18, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

So basically...
A MMO lives by it's PvE since PvP cannot be balanced.
Reason : It's a RPG, thus you are not as important as your char(since you play a role/ you're not yourself). That translates by the fact that the first thing that determines the winner is the build (personal or team build), and that your real-life skills play a support role. Even if you are a good player, your char isn't good if you didn't play with him.

Therefore the best system is the one used by WoW...
(the last comment isn't exact and I do know that fact)

DutchSmurf · May 18, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Basicly, what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are you thinking? If,in fact, almost everyone was running the same balanced that would be one of the best things that ever happened to the game.This was the way it was when PvP was at its prime (prophicies, after retarded things got nurfed after release). Most teams running similer, well rounded, skill-based builds is a sign of a balanced game where playing skill wins, not buildwars like it is now.

So basically we call a metagame with only one possible build a balanced metagame and a metagame with more possible builds is called buildwars? So if I have 100 options and only 1 is good, the game is balanced. And if 10 are good, we play buildwars. People weren't running similar, well rounded, skill-based builds because the game was that balanced. They all ran the exact same build because it was the only option. And when someone ran something different (FoC, IWAY), it was almost always an autowin.
Just look at the current HvH metagame. Almost everyone is running the exact same build. According to you, the HvH metagame is balanced. Somehow however, people call it boring and imbalanced. Which is exactly what GvG the 3 months before Factions came out was, boring.

I actually think the current metagame is more balanced then it ever was. After all, there isn't a single skill really overpowered. Hexes are a small problem, but not more then that.

So why did PvP die? There are lots of reasons for that. Short summary is that every form of PvP got killed by something else.
RA got killed by gladiator points
TA got killed by lack of support/reason to play
HA got killed by fame
GvG got killed by the format itself and by slow balancing of skills AND maps, combined with the lack of a way to find a guild.
AB is actually a good working format
FA and that other thing got killed by leechers and lack of reason to play them, although FA is really fun to play.
HvH is, like it or not, a working format. Although the AI needs some work.

Thomas.knbk · May 18, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

So basically we call a metagame with only one possible build a balanced metagame and a metagame with more possible builds is called buildwars?

That's why chess > guild wars.

Patrograd · May 18, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

So basically we call a metagame with only one possible build a balanced metagame and a metagame with more possible builds is called buildwars?

No, its called a mature meta, where every combination has been tested and tried at the top level, and a certain build, or build style, has been proven to be the strongest.

It just so happens that this, the so-called Gale Wars meta is generally regarded as being as close as the game has ever come to being perfectly balanced. There were some issues with gale, which were addressed, but generally speaking player skill was more important than build - you couldnt run that build if you didnt know what you were doing tactically. Lower down the ladder you could run pretty much whatever you liked, becasue nothing was all that imbalanced. There was a massive diversity of builds on the ladder pre obs mode, but all the top teams ran gale wars, because its the only build you could run that would beat a decent team of good players.

Quote:

So if I have 100 options and only 1 is good, the game is balanced. And if 10 are good, we play buildwars.

No, we play buildwars when the only solution to solving a particular problem is to build against it. It is buildwars at the moment because it is close to impossible to beat the half a dozen overpowered meta builds through skilful positioning, tactical movement or strategy in general. if you dont have the specific solution in your toolbox to handle the problem, via a skill on your bar as opposed to via a clever bit of play, you lose, no matter how good you are in relation to your opponent. It is your build against their build, not your players against theirs. because there are so many overpowered skill combinations at the moment that anyone can run given a little practise, you simply cannot pack the counters to them, and because they are so strong, you cannot strat against them either. Your only chance of winning, consistently, is to run a similarly overpowered build. On the occasions your rock meets their scissors, you win, if its paper, tough, you lose. This is build wars.

Quote:

I actually think the current metagame is more balanced then it ever was. After all, there isn't a single skill really overpowered. Hexes are a small problem, but not more then that.

Hexes are a massive problem, because they are passive shutdown of an entire team, that are as strong in split as in 8v8, and the counters simply dont exist. Pretty much the exact opposite to balanced imo

Quote:

GvG got killed by the format itself

The GvG foramt is arguably the best PvP model there has ever been in MMORPG, it is what attracted players to the game in first place, and is all that keeps many hanging on. Nice idea, shame about the lack of support.

assassin of the god · May 18, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

So basically we call a metagame with only one possible build a balanced metagame and a metagame with more possible builds is called buildwars? So if I have 100 options and only 1 is good, the game is balanced. And if 10 are good, we play buildwars. People weren't running similar, well rounded, skill-based builds because the game was that balanced. They all ran the exact same build because it was the only option. And when someone ran something different (FoC, IWAY), it was almost always an autowin.
Just look at the current HvH metagame. Almost everyone is running the exact same build. According to you, the HvH metagame is balanced. Somehow however, people call it boring and imbalanced. Which is exactly what GvG the 3 months before Factions came out was, boring.

Actully, absoulutely not. I suggest you reread my post. What I was saying is the perfectly balanced metagame is where SKILL NOT BUILD is what wins, and where people are running VERSITILE builds, not single dimensional builds like spike, iway, ect. I suggest you read Garbad's thread on balance as he explains this much better then me.

Also, the reason that everyone plays the same thing in HvH is because the AI is very limited in the templates it can run effectively, and so the builds are very limited.

Vaga · May 19, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

No one has a problem with a metagame where there are gimmicks/easy to play builds that are effective. However top tier teams need to be able to run a balanced build and whilst they may have to play a lot better than the other team to win they should still be able to win just because they are a lot better at the game. People say build wars because there are some builds that as soon as you see you know no matter how well you play you can't win.

InfernalSuffering · May 19, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

-Guild Wars Prophecies Box

Shame...

tomcruisejr · May 19, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

-Guild Wars Prophecies Box

Shame...

That means levels and weapons don't decide how you win or who wins and that's why you have pvp chars with same sets of skills, armors and weapons that can be used by anybody.

So it's technically SKILL and not HOURS played.

I think you need to have a build to play and you need the skill to play that build and defeat whatever builds you face. So naturally, saying that it should be "SKILL NOT BUILD PLAYED" is kinda uhmmmm. And why the uber reverence to the "BALANCED BUILD". For your info, gimmick/onedimensional builds are what some of the guilds used to earn their GOLD CAPES. So wtf, jack.

Patrograd · May 19, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

And why the uber reverence to the "BALANCED BUILD".

Try and run one, I mean a real proper balanced build. Without superb co-ordination, superb movement, superb positioning, perfect timing of skill usage, expert strategy, you will simply lose against any semi decent team. So, to run such a build at the very top of the ladder is viewed, quite correctly, as the ultimate achievement in Guild Wars

Quote:

For your info, gimmick/onedimensional builds are what some of the guilds used to earn their GOLD CAPES. So wtf, jack.

Two that I can think of. EW, who ran a balanced build all through the ladder season, and in some of the playoff matches, ran FOC spike in the final and in a couple of other playoff matches. However, had they been incapable of running balanced, had it been the case that all they could run well was FOC spike, they wouldn't have got anywhere near the final of the playoffs, and certainly wouldnt have won it, as the other team could have easily built against them. So, in fact, it was their ability to run balanced, which their opponents were aware of, that won them their Gold cape.

iQ got to the playoffs running thumperspam. This was a season that was 3 days long. Running anything other than a one-dimensional gimmick build would have been, under those circumstances, fail. Everyone that weekend ran one dimensional ladder farm builds, iQ just did it better and more than anyone else. I dont think you can make a serious case that iQ cant run a balanced build, as I'm sure that if you did you'd get laughed out of town. Then in the playoff final they pulled off what you might describe as a gimmick to win, however, it is important to realise again that had this gimmick been their only "trick", the only thing they could do, then as with EW their opponents could have easily countered them. As with EW, the "threat" of iQ running balanced won them the title as much as the build they actually ran.

tomcruisejr · May 19, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

I didnt say that EW and iQ cannot run balanced. But this is in black and white, they used gimmicks to get Gold capes so I don't understand why people who arent even in the calibre of EW and iQ dissing gimmicks.

And you forgot PnH, dude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Try and run one, I mean a real proper balanced build. Without superb co-ordination, superb movement, superb positioning, perfect timing of skill usage, expert strategy, you will simply lose against any semi decent team. So, to run such a build at the very top of the ladder is viewed, quite correctly, as the ultimate achievement in Guild Wars

Ask yourself who are groups that excel in running balanced setups and you'll be surprised that they are the ones who've been running it the longest.

See all that superb co-ordination and other superbs that you said, takes time to develop and have. Asking someone who have 0 to minimal experience to run a balanced build and expect him to pwn in an instant is kinda funny.

What's my point? you need time and dedication to running a certain playstyle and as long as that playstyle dominates, the ones who dominate in it are those who knew how to play it well first.

How will the noob like us catch-up with them? Simple, wait for them to be rusty and quit or rely on a build that simply dominates what they're using (AND WILL GET NERFED AFTERWARDS!!!1!!!1).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Hi, I made this thread to discuss the fact of stagnancy in PvP. Lately, and by this I mean the past few weeks or so, I've been watching a few high-end gvg's and HA in observer mode. It is always interesting to watch these high ranked guilds play, and particularly when I watch them I try to pay attention to the fact what makes them so "1337".

My main gripe and idea of concern is lack of build diversity, where basically Guild Wars is turning into a click-fest. Everyone uses the same build, 3 monks, 2 warriors or so (1 being hammer one being eviscerate), a me/mo, and a e/rt flag runner, and a burning-arrow ranger.

In all types of pvp, these builds are all that I see, and really in a sense they have become really better than other ones. My opinion is that other skills must be changed as well, and that even if 1000 skills exist if only 50 of those are actually better what is the point of having the other 900? My point is, things like this have killed PvP, and hopefully Anet will change this situation.

Anyone agree?

I agree. The beauty of having multiple group builds that are playable and equally have the chance to defeat each other is that different players with different tastes of builds will actually try and be competitive. An overly offensive build will use its offense to shut down everything but having the weakness of easily getting wiped out coz of less healing. An overly defensive build can stall the game and try to win via say VoD and shit. A spike team, well you know what they do, but they can employ different tactics too. Balanced builds uses lots of tricks to defeat all those mentioned group builds because of their versatility (thus making them not overly defensive/offensive), mobility(they can split better) etc. A healthy balanced metagame should be like this. But whats happening?

Naturally, overall damage of a build is directly proportional to the number of copies of damage dealer you put in and it seems like certain groups don't wanna accept this fact and nerfs were done because of this. They scaled the overall damage of some build based on number of copies of damage dealers to almost laughable because "5 Warriors with axe rapes a balanced team" or "8 Necros with same copies of shit is in rank 8 of the ladder now" or "8 Ritualists is holding 1000X in HoH" now instead of believing in the balanced build's ability to mitigate the damages of those by using skills and player SKILL. But people are lazy and whiny. Thus nerfs. They made the balance build so powerful that the naturally offensive build that supposedly has the damage that will nail 1 or 2 kills throughout the match is a now 0% threat.

Back to your question, I agree. If you may, I would like to think that the current gvg and the metagame that is dominant which rapes (and will rape any good builds via nerfs) everything else is akin to the Heroes Ascent in late '05 with the IWAY metagame. Everything looks the same.

assassin of the god · May 20, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

I didnt say that EW and iQ cannot run balanced. But this is in black and white, they used gimmicks to get Gold capes so I don't understand why people who arent even in the calibre of EW and iQ dissing gimmicks.

And you forgot PnH, dude

Ask yourself who are groups that excel in running balanced setups and you'll be surprised that they are the ones who've been running it the longest.

See all that superb co-ordination and other superbs that you said, takes time to develop and have. Asking someone who have 0 to minimal experience to run a balanced build and expect him to pwn in an instant is kinda funny.

What's my point? you need time and dedication to running a certain playstyle and as long as that playstyle dominates, the ones who dominate in it are those who knew how to play it well first.

How will the noob like us catch-up with them? Simple, wait for them to be rusty and quit or rely on a build that simply dominates what they're using (AND WILL GET NERFED AFTERWARDS!!!1!!!1).

Ofcourse the guilds that have been running balanced for a long time are the best at running it, because they are better then the guilds then have been running gimmick. None of the "top" gimmick guilds would keep their rank if they switched to balanced, yet any guild that has run balanced and improved with it can easily switch to gimmick because they are much better at the game due to the higher requirements for being good at balanced, just look at EW,iQ,ect. They have run balanced builds for a long time and when they switch to gimmick they are good at it. Do you think they could of done it the other way around?

tomcruisejr · May 20, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Ofcourse the guilds that have been running balanced for a long time are the best at running it, because they are better then the guilds then have been running gimmick.....

...And those people who are trying hard and harder to learn and run very well a balanced setup. Do you wonder why iQ or cow defeats almost all guilds playing balanced with guildtags that dont ring a tune? (but sometimes its other way around when the veterans get beat by an unknown and if that happens, that means an iQ smurf just won).

Quote:

None of the "top" gimmick guilds would keep their rank if they switched to balanced,

Why would they switch if gimmick is all they wanna run? Is A.Net forcing them to run balanced? Oh yes, by making their builds useless via nerfs and now you laugh at them running balanced builds like clowns.

Quote:

yet any guild that has run balanced and improved with it can easily switch to gimmick because they are much better at the game due to the higher requirements for being good at balanced, just look at EW,iQ,ect.

Higher requirements you mean lots of things that can be done coz of the robust skill sets and tactic options in a balanced build, i agree. Is it hard to run? well that's debatable.

Quote:

They have run balanced builds for a long time and when they switch to gimmick they are good at it. Do you think they could of done it the other way around?

Well during my generation, we faced a few of the top ranked guilds running IWAY and they were laughable. Or maybe they were just having fun lols.

But still I agree to that statement. When good, versatile balanced players decide to switch playstyles, they most likely have the groove still. You know why, balanced and gimmicks have 8 players with 8 skills and are both builds and they've tried both worlds. The knowledge and skills that you have, you can only get from your experience.

See, top guilds now, I assume, didnt start all the way from balanced nazi style. Most of them did run gimmicks one part in their gw life, sampled gimmick builds coz most of them started in HA. They did rspike, smite, spirit spam, iway, whatever way and whatever spike, the meta balanced of the past such as gale wars, cripshot, etc etc. and now doing well with balanced. These people didnt confine themselves by just playing only balanced builds.

And those who only know how to run gimmicks chose themselves to do so, so its by choice. Telling someone who only ran gimmicks to run balanced and then asking him to be in front page of the ladder is like telling locked up baby inside the crib to reach out for his pacifier outside. It's almost impossible to happen overnight and without any effort to making that happen.

There are people why people wanna master balanced and wanna play gimmicks, and you know that because I believe in your ability to think impartially.

assassin of the god · May 20, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

For now I'm going to assume that you compleately ignored the main point of my post because I didn't state it clearly enough. So let me do that for you now.

Simply put, gimmick is easier to run and makes a team improve less then a versitile, balanced build.It has nothing to do with playstyle. A balanced build is one that can spike,pressure, and split effectively. cow(bad example btw, they lose to alot of low ranked guilds) and iQ beats teams that are unkown because they are BETTER then them.

Also, gimmicks are nurfed by anet(rarely) because they use imbalanced skill synergies
and premote poor play and let bad players get higher rank.Ideally, in a compleately balanced metagame, everyone will play verstile builds because they will not be able to win through gimmicks, overpowered builds, or general buildwars.

InfernalSuffering · May 21, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Simply put, gimmick is easier to run and makes a team improve less then a versitile, balanced build.It has nothing to do with playstyle. A balanced build is one that can spike,pressure, and split effectively.

That is the main reason that whatever guild I am in I make run balanced. To me improvement is key. I would rather improve greatly over one year than win halls twice a week using gimmick. Maybe thats just me but just general balanced appeals to me because it promotes skill. If you dont run balanced well you wont win. People want to win. They will try different things and squeeze the most out of their skill bar. And yes, as stated, teams like iQ an such can always turn back to gimmick on a whim or for fame or pure fun. ANet wants balanced of course. For Example. I hate kobe bryant (aka gimmick) because he doesnt play defense but he is great on offense. Tons of people like him. He is an international superstar. Doesnt mean people dont like steve nash (aka balanced). People are generally attracted to the fastest, most offensive, explosive builds. People get their jollies from watching the kill count marker rise whether or not the opposing teams is rising as well. Gets the adrenaline pumping. Suns are better than the Lakers. Good balanced will beat good gimmick every time. The problem is reaching the level of good balanced.

P.S.-sry for poor basketball analogy

Ensign · May 21, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Er, I'm not sure where this thread is going ATM, but I'll chime in and say that the game is reasonably balanced right now. Sure there are a lot of weak skills still, and a few overpowered aspects, but for the most part things have stabilized into variations on a reasonably balanced theme - two melee (Warrior or Dervish, lots of flavors), Ranger (Burning Arrow or Broadhead, not a lot of variation), Water Ele (Shatterstone, Trident, or Shackles for the most part), two Monks (One a LoD/Prot hybrid, the other running a Prot elite with Gift of Health), plus two other characters that largely define the nature of the build, and guide the tweaks that are made to the other characters. You'll sometimes see a character out of that core tweaked and his job distributed amongst the other characters, but in general every top build follows that pattern.

That's reasonably balanced, and does lead to some compelling gameplay.

The problem with PvP in Guild Wars is that there aren't enough new players coming in to keep up with natural attrition. Make no mistake, Guild Wars PvP is *hard*. We're not playing WoW here, Warriors can't get by simply training a healer for 20 minutes, and Monks won't survive just by making red bars go up, and people aren't learning it. There's no path for a new player to get into PvP, to learn the game and develop his skills and contacts. When the game first came out, that happened in HA - virtually all of the early PvP guilds came out of Tombs pickups. But that doesn't work terribly well anymore, HA has refined itself sufficiently to expect a meaningful knowledge base to play on a 'balanced' team, while those looking to learn are inevitibly shuffled into one gimmick build or another, which does get them some wins but does not develop a skillset or contacts that will lead to success later. Other earlier PvP formats (such as Alliance Battles) are still brimming with promise, but have been so horrendously neglected that they simply fail as introductory PvP.

GvG is pretty good right now. It's tactically deep, with robust templates dominating at the top. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of players there, and it's a shame. The game simply isn't developing the next generation of top players and guilds, those who learned the ropes back when it was easy to are simply cannibalizing each other's guilds to keep playing now while the competitive player pool continues to shrink. The game isn't dead, but without new blood, it really is in a deathmarch.

It's still entirely fixable, of course. But unless Arena.net suddenly develops even a minimal live support team, the game really isn't going anywhere.

Peace,
-CxE

Thom Bangalter · May 21, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

those who learned the ropes back when it was easy to are simply cannibalizing each other's guilds to keep playing now

Agreed with everything you said, but this part stuck out for some weird reason.

Phades · May 21, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

That trend is more common with older FPS style games that involve score tracking or a ladder. At least, with the ones ive played in the past.

I think it has a lot to do with not wanting to deal with or train new people they come across in random pick up games and only want other people who have "proven" themselves already.

Lodurr · May 21, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Er, I'm not sure where this thread is going ATM, but I'll chime in and say that the game is reasonably balanced right now.

I generally agree. It's not as if the top 100 isn't all one type of build, all hex or all Eurospike, etc. But there are a few edges sticking out, like hexes still being overpowered considering that hex counters are so easily countered by good hex teams. And Soldier's Defense monks are really lame. I don't mind spiking through a Dark Escape or a 3-second Disciplined Stance, but a 5-second 75% block stance every 10 seconds makes them basically invincible to a balanced spike. You have to resort to pressure, and if your backline isn't running Soldier's too then the odds are against you.

Quote:

But unless Arena.net suddenly develops even a minimal live support team, the game really isn't going anywhere.

I've been wondering what kind of sales they expect for the GW:EN expansion after totally abandoning support for the core game.