Curse

Series · May 13, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Then why you invest so much time and emotion trying to join them?
There are lot of non ranked people willing to join you - why not join them?

Let me guess - you actually care about rank and winning but give the opposite BS when you get rejected.

It is funny, you dismiss the ways and attitude of people who have something you want. Irony or hypocrisy?

Who said I don't join them again?

Lots of false assumptions there.

Skuld · May 13, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Jealosy, I think..

God Is A Sniper · May 13, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

What's killing HA is the repetitive builds, as everyone covered beforehand. Changing it from 8v8 to 6v6 and then back to 8v8 killed it for me.

BTW, what is this UAX people speak of?

Skuld · May 13, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Unlocked All X (everything)

from UAS (unlocked all skills)

HA has always been repetitive, don't kid yourself

Trixz · May 13, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Dude, I doubt you actually have pvped recently???

Cause from the way you talk, you sure havent.

InfernalSuffering · May 13, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Im literally LoLing at all of these PvP ***newbs*** (not n00bs) getting shut down for complaining about being shut down and out of pvp. I would probably say that up until now half of my gw experience came in PvE. I wanted to PvP. What did I do? I sat in RA month after month creating my own personal builds and figuring out the +s and -s of every single skill. Sure I got shot down along the way. "Why the f**k are you using that skill you n00b?1?!?". Yes, it bothers you but just yell "If your so 1337 then why are you still in RA?" back at them at watch their silence. RA is a great place to just mess around and figure out the game. "Is it better to kite this way or this way?" "Should I choose Sun and Moon Slash or Final Thrust in my skilbar?" "Which target should I take first, the mesmer or the assassin?" and there are no consequences. You dont get kicked out of your guild for being horrible, you dont get your rank abused. Its just for learning. There is nobody there (with the exception of a high lvl pvper jacking around every once in awhile) who isnt on the same page that you are. Yes it takes awhile but it is "high level" pvp. You have to catch a couple breaks and bond well with a couple people and get some friends to start competetively but it will come.

Now back on topic. PvP is not dead nor is it dying. I repeat. PvP is not dead nor is it dying. You want to know why? As long as I can create skill bars that I know (thanks to obs mode) arent being run, then it is not dead. As long my guildies and I can get on vent and mess around while getting some fame in HA, then it is not dead. As long as I still get the thrill of the upset when you beat MOJO or CCCP, then PvP is not dead. As long as IWAY is not revived, then PvP is not dead. Sure getting into a good guild takes some luck but it can still happen. Some of you might be referencing such guilds as Te or EviL or WM but does that really matter? The question should be whether or not PvP is dead for you, not whether some guy named Soul Wedding from halfway across the world is having as much fun at his computer in Korea.

Trixz · May 13, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Im literally LoLing at all of these PvP ***newbs*** (not n00bs) getting shut down for complaining about being shut down and out of pvp. I would probably say that up until now half of my gw experience came in PvE. I wanted to PvP. What did I do? I sat in RA month after month creating my own personal builds and figuring out the +s and -s of every single skill. Sure I got shot down along the way. "Why the f**k are you using that skill you n00b?1?!?". Yes, it bothers you but just yell "If your so 1337 then why are you still in RA?" back at them at watch their silence. RA is a great place to just mess around and figure out the game. "Is it better to kite this way or this way?" "Should I choose Sun and Moon Slash or Final Thrust in my skilbar?" "Which target should I take first, the mesmer or the assassin?" and there are no consequences. You dont get kicked out of your guild for being horrible, you dont get your rank abused. Its just for learning. There is nobody there (with the exception of a high lvl pvper jacking around every once in awhile) who isnt on the same page that you are. Yes it takes awhile but it is "high level" pvp. You have to catch a couple breaks and bond well with a couple people and get some friends to start competetively but it will come.

Now back on topic. PvP is not dead nor is it dying. I repeat. PvP is not dead nor is it dying. You want to know why? As long as I can create skill bars that I know (thanks to obs mode) arent being run, then it is not dead. As long my guildies and I can get on vent and mess around while getting some fame in HA, then it is not dead. As long as I still get the thrill of the upset when you beat MOJO or CCCP, then PvP is not dead. As long as IWAY is not revived, then PvP is not dead. Sure getting into a good guild takes some luck but it can still happen. Some of you might be referencing such guilds as Te or EviL or WM but does that really matter? The question should be whether or not PvP is dead for you, not whether some guy named Soul Wedding from halfway across the world is having as much fun at his computer in Korea.

I guess your a leet pvper then?

Lol.

InfernalSuffering · May 14, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trixz

I guess your a leet pvper then?

Lol.

Did I say I was? Ive been in a top 500 guild, and sure I would like to be more competitive, but grinding for r3 in HA holds no appeal to me. I hate top level elitists who frown upon people below them simply because their eliteness is questioned. Much of top level gw requires the right "connections" which I dont have and most people need you to be on for 4 hours to gvg and that isnt going to happen. The Wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Right now I'm just playing it by ear whehter that means scrub, nub, or one of the best in the game.

Yichi · May 14, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Now back on topic. PvP is not dead nor is it dying. I repeat. PvP is not dead nor is it dying. You want to know why? As long as I can create skill bars that I know (thanks to obs mode) arent being run, then it is not dead. As long my guildies and I can get on vent and mess around while getting some fame in HA, then it is not dead. As long as I still get the thrill of the upset when you beat MOJO or CCCP, then PvP is not dead. As long as IWAY is not revived, then PvP is not dead. Sure getting into a good guild takes some luck but it can still happen. Some of you might be referencing such guilds as Te or EviL or WM but does that really matter? The question should be whether or not PvP is dead for you, not whether some guy named Soul Wedding from halfway across the world is having as much fun at his computer in Korea.

The reason you can create builds which arent being run on observer mode, is because they are sub-optimal builds that are one-sided, so they will only deal with a certian build, or rely on certian conditions being present. Most of the standard builds being run in competitive PVP at the moment are builds that are proven to work against 90% of everythign you run across and can deal with them accordingly... Yes while you can your guildies can go HA or guest and be able to beat higher teams/guilds, PVP as a general whole is dying due to its inactivity and stale metagame. The number of top guilds and top HA teams that used to play compared to what is currently playign is astounding low, almost 1/4 of what used to be there. A lot of top guilds and teams are breaking up due to the fact that PVP in this game is dying and people are moving to different games, or quitting alltogether.... While PVP may not be dead for one certian play or a small group or guild of players, PVP in general is struggling and needs somethign drastic done to revive interest in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Did I say I was? Ive been in a top 500 guild, and sure I would like to be more competitive, but grinding for r3 in HA holds no appeal to me. I hate top level elitists who frown upon people below them simply because their eliteness is questioned. Much of top level gw requires the right "connections" which I dont have and most people need you to be on for 4 hours to gvg and that isnt going to happen. The Wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Right now I'm just playing it by ear whehter that means scrub, nub, or one of the best in the game.

Being in a rank 500 guild isnt what someone who is in competetive PVP would call upper tier PVP, in fact this isnt even considered mid=level PVP. Mid level competitive PVP starts around r200-r75 or so... and some of the best players in this game arent much higher than r3. I watched as Last of Master from evil, arguably one of the best warriors in this game, get his rank 3 and stopped, just so he would have an emote. A few other players from highly ranked top guilds arent much higher than r6-r8... and these are players that play in a top 50 guild because they proved themselves enough to be able to play to that level of play. Some pvper's dont liek the HA/tombs/whatever u want to call it format and dint play in it that often... Yes the right connections are key in this game as they are in life, but that by no means rules you out of said positions, you just have to prove yourself to them that you are on that level of competitive play. In order to do that you will have to be on for 4 hours to GVG, you will have to put in as much time as you can to better yourself or keep yourself in top gaming format. If you cant put in that kinda time and effort to become more competitive and in a higher guild, than you have no right to bitch about the upper level guilds and players that do put in this kinda time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Yes, because being rank 10 clearly makes you so much more skilled than a rank 9 that having a single rank 9 on your team will result in immediate failure.

It has nothing to do with learning the game, it has to do with elitist assholes who wont give people a chance because they won a few more times, regardless of if the player is or isn't as skilled as them. Fame is not a representation of skill. Neither is gladiator. Or anything like that.

OK so yes, being a r10 player isnt any different than being a r9 player. There are just as many bad r9+ players as there are r3+ players... these are the people that think they have the skill and knowledge because they got their fame through farming some gimmick all day long and when you throw them on a different buidl they blow it and say shit like "well im r9 noob. gg"

Lets face it. If youre tryign to put together a superbowl team, or a team to go after the stanley cup, or just any team to win, whats the first thign you look for... whose the best player you can find that will offer you what you need in that spot. People arent goign to be too open to taking a player along that isnt up to their level of play. And the only way youll get to that level of play is to get better. The only way to get better is through expierence. So no rank doesnt = skill, rank = expierence. The more expierenced players are looking for other just as expierenced players, not play charity and say well this guy isnt as expierenced as us, lets bring him anyway. A lot of people who do play competitively and more than just casual have been burnt in the past by less expierenced players making a mistake that an expierenced player would know otherwise. Therein lies the difference. Its not that we (the PVP community) want to see more players into the field, we want just the opposite. We encourage more people to play, this way youre not having to fight only a certian select group of people in order to have any form of challenge, wether it be in HA or GVG. But youre not just goign to be able to come into a competitive area like that and expect to just fit in and do outstanding. You have to work for it and earn it like everyone else did. So what a guild or team you see in halls all the time wont let you run with them. I had an expierence when i was only r3, and ended up fighting a r9+ pug. we faced them and won with me playing on an infuse monk. Afterwards i had several of them message me and tell me that it was because of how i played and everytime they made the pug from then on, i always got an offer, so in a way i proved myself, just as everyone should have to do. dont just demand it, earn it.

Aphrodate · May 14, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Me personally find PvP boring and it might aswell not even be there. I understand that there are alot of people that like to play in PvP, but doing the same over and over is not for me. Sadly I'm forced to play PvP when I want to unlock a skill, wish dev can change that so that you can get Balthazar points in PvE and in PvP.....so then you can play which ever you prefer.

I don't think PvP is dead. Games go through phases and all areas have their up's and down's.

Yichi · May 14, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

You can unlock skills in PVE faster than you can in most PVP formats... so youre not forced to PVP.

Steps_Descending · May 16, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Just wondering: how is the metagame "staller" than in other games?
Can someone who played other MMO explain it to me.
By the way, i'm NOT saying it ISN'T stagnating. I don't even PvP but I want to understand why it is so bad.

And about ranks, probably one of the problem with it : you don't need to be good to get it. if you played for a year with 1 win out of 10, you'll probably have played enough to be hight enough.<

EDIT : Clarifying : can someone who played another MMO tell me how other games stay healthy?

Zui · May 17, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Can someone who played other MMO explain it to me.
By the way, i'm NOT saying it ISN'T stagnating. I don't even PvP but I want to understand why it is so bad.

Although I have played other MMO games including Diablo(sortof counts), D2, D2 LoD, and WoW, there really isn't much PvP in those games at all. The first three allow "PvP" but, weren't really designed with PvP being anything other than a side feature. WoW is WoW. The "PvP" in that game is by design, unbalanced so that bad people can win if they have the right gear/class/investment in talents.

Basically I don't know of any other MMO type games that were actually designed with quality PvP in mind.

Anyway, right now PvP is bad because there's alot of passive play, making it not fun for people to play. In addition, there's alot of Build > Skill going on. In RTS and FPS games, there really isn't any passive gameplay. You also have better players winning because they're better players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

And about ranks, probably one of the problem with it : you don't need to be good to get it. if you played for a year with 1 win out of 10, you'll probably have played enough to be hight enough.

Basically, the system doesn't reflect skill, and never will. Because skill is the only thing that matters, no one really cares about rank if they know you. They only look to it in cases where they don't know you, and don't want to waste their time with total idiots, so they settle for people who are mostly just idiots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

EDIT : Clarifying : can someone who played another MMO tell me how other games stay healthy?

They're not designed for actual competitve PvP at all. Although, this doesn't really apply to Guild Wars.

You can use the FPS/RTS example of making the game accessable to everyone to play right away(If anyone from ANET is reading, and actually cares, this is aimed directly at Skill Unlocks, Item Unlocks, especially Item Unlocks for those who BOUGHT THE PVP EDITION WHERE THEY ARE NOT UNLOCKED, the cost to create a guild/invite members, and ESPECIALLY THE COST OF CHANGING GUILD HALLS FOR NON-TOP TIER/LONG TERM PLAYERS), eliminating passive play, and balancing the game so that skill > build/map choice. Also, especially for Guild Wars, everyone needs to be rewarded for playing PvP, aside from just the fun of playing it, otherwise "casual" gamers who bought the game mainly for PvE but might want to try PvP too, will actually have a motivation to play it over PvE(See thread in Gladiator's Arena for more). Oh, and having some kind of format where a COMPETITIVE 1 vs 1 type of would be good and all, but it just won't work for Guild Wars. And no, Hero Battles is not a good competitive game type, even though you added a ladder, and prizes, and say it is competitive, it doesn't make it so. Making ATs suck less would be pretty nice too.

Although, none of that matters because ANET doesn't care, or is entirely incapable of doing it. (Ok, so treat that "or" as an "and" because it's pretty clear, at least to me, that both are true).

Bryant Again · May 17, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

WoW is WoW. The "PvP" in that game is by design, unbalanced so that bad people can win if they have the right gear/class/investment in talents.

WoW is soon going to implement a gear-matching system. Will see how that goes.

However, yes there are a few imbalance issues (shaman, cough). Aside from that, I've found PvP in WoW to take much more skill than I thought it would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Basically I don't know of any other MMO type games that were actually designed with quality PvP in mind.

Lineage 2 springs to mind...but you mentioned "quality", sooo...ouch.

There's also Fury, which so far looks somewhat promising.

crimsonfilms · May 17, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Who said I don't join them again?

Lots of false assumptions there.

So you join them and still critize them?
You are only as good as the company you keep.

Thom Bangalter · May 17, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

The only guild in the US that seems to actually be active is Rawr. God knows why.

GvG is uninteresting when the ladder is meaningless and ATs are flawed, And Tombs has been dead pretty much since release.

However, PvE is a lot of fun! No, seriously, it is. I'm always up for vanquishing Tyria, pst.

Riotgear · May 17, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

However, yes there are a few imbalance issues (shaman, cough).

A few? The whole combat system revolves around effects designed to make people unable to control their character for 5 seconds or longer, and largely revolves around massive crits knocking 1/3-1/2 of someone's health bar off instantly. Magic effects are heavily relied on by several classes, yet dispels have a 1.5-sec cooldown. There is only one spell in the entire game you can cast on someone else to reduce pain-training, and it has a 5-minute cooldown, but there is an unremovable -50% healing debuff that lasts 10 seconds with a 6-second cooldown.

WoW's PvP is basically a port of a PvE combat system that was designed with PvP as an afterthought, and it reeks of that. Nothing will save it short of a total overhaul.

As for "balance":
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=102907730

[/rant]

As for PvP dying, let's just say that hero battles haven't exactly reinvigorated demand for Guild Wars, while the influx of a bunch of imbalanced and keyboard-karate-chop-encouraging skills from Nightfall has certainly helped frustrate people out of it.

Patrograd · May 17, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

I think a distinction has to be made

Top level GvG is dead or dying for sure. The standard of play you see from the top 20 or 30 must surely be, for the most part, the lowest standard of play the game has ever seen at that level. Top level GvG is really, really missing all those top players who have gone off to do something else. That talent pool is simply irreplaceable. I imagine that for other top 20 or so players, those who are still hanging around, this must really suck. The lack of competition that allows the very small handful of top teams to run heroway on the ladder and in ATs and STILL maintain their ladder rank must really reek if you what you thrive on is intense competition. In my experience, top players are a long, long way from being elitist, they would want nothing more than for everyone to be as good as them because strong competition = fun, victories that are hard fought are about ten times more worthwhile than victories over scrubs. So, for these guys, the current lack of activity from decent players, and the lack of new decent players entering the game must really blow.

Conversely, lower down the ladder, the standard of play is probably much, much higher than it has ever been. Partly down to obs mode giving every team the ability to actually possess the right sort of tools, and partly down to there being now a very experienced mid rank core of players, the kind of guys who are never going to have the talent to move into top tier play but who have played enough to have a really sound grip of tactics (there are literally thousands of players between rank 100-rank 600 or so that have played many thousands of GvGs, but dont have the ability as individuals to play top level). I would go so far as to say that in terms of ability, todays rank 800 is roughly equal to the rank 200 teams of the first competitive ladder at the end of 2005. Teams that are currently rank 150-200 would have been easily rank 50 back then, when all you needed to be top 200 was a build and voice comms. (My first PVP Guild, which was formed out of PVE players that had never played GvG before, was rank 200 after a week of play in October 2005)

So in this sense, PVP at this sort of mid-low level has never been more alive, never been more competitive, and yet it is still hugely unsatisfactory, for reasons that are to do mostly with game balance. Even though there are many, many more active GvGers of this level than there have ever been, and even though on the whole they are experienced and much more capable than they used to be, there is still that big something missing, there is still the frustration of the broken meta that ultimately kills proper skilled competition and results in build vs build combat which is, at the end of the day, what will kill the game sooner or later.

I think Anet is lucky that WoW sucks so badly from a competitive viewpoint, and that Warhammer has had its release put back to Q1 next year, and that the early noises from many Fury Alpha testers arent all that positive, otherwise there just wouldnt be anyone left playing this thing.

red orc · May 17, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Lets just follow the logic:
having a community of 1000 ppl gvging for 1/2 a year produces 50 great players.
having a community of 10000 ppl playing gvg for 2 1/2 years produces less than 50 great players.

I sense that something is wrong here but I really cannot put my finger on it...

lucky k · May 17, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

First off I have had some experience in pvp so i believe my ideas reflect a substancial amount of pvpers views.
2.8 mil Balth faction total
5700 fame
R3 Glad
15 Champ points
Friend of the Kurzicks
KOBD for varios chars (Pve credibility)

Anet you had a great idea for a fun and competitve game but.... as most have mentioned things have goten stale. I have ideas that could revive some areas of pvp

Heroes Ascent: (matches decided by caller vs. Infuser) ...ty kill count...
The place where most of the pvp takes place in guild wars.
99% Spike , FOTM = Not fun even for the winners. Only thing to look forward to is the chest, which gives a damn sigil. Takes 1 Hr average waiting time to get a group. (im Rank 9... and advertise I dont care about rank so i can just get in and play) the hero emote means nothing anymore... A Phoenix means absolutely nothing to a top rated guild beacause of how cheap HA is now.

TA : Last place I actually look to pvp the most in... too bad no one wants to play here

RA: Glad points ruined this arena. Everyone wants a monk or some other specific class in their group. So what do we get.... 10 min of hitting a button "Enter Battle" till we finnaly get a whole team that will stay and play, only to come up against sync farmers that are together on vent. Or, When you get fed up and roll a monk somehow the pairing system matches you with 3 other monks... ?? Anet are you sitting back laughing at this? watching all 4 of us trying to wand a ranger to death that has Natural stride and troll ungent... You could also award .1 glad point per win as this would promte monkless teams to stay and fight rather than bail. and stay consistent with the current gladiator point system

Hero Battles: Hmm mabey you could rename this to "Ninjas only pvp" Great idea but the average player gets whacked. I say make it 1v1 no Ai involved. Or only one of the same class. Promote balance not tank/running/hex stack teams. and btw Ninjas are so popular here cause when you flag your hero monk to a shrine the sin on the other team nabs the hero while they are en route. (glitch that all allows them to kill your hero monk with ease.... i.e. Shadow prision, skill 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, recall out)

GvG: oh man its bad
For the average guilds like ones ive been in we just cant get it right.. we run pure balance and get owned by hex stacks on jade, we bring lots of hex removal then get owned by recall split etc,etc,etc rock paper scissors. Only it is not skill that determines the winner it is build choice and location. Now i have played some pretty lame builds as well and won against guilds we shouldnt have beaten, but that is not fun. Fun gvg matches are those of balance vs. balance skill vs. skill win or lose no luck involved. its about strats and tactics not skill choice.

My suggestions:

Proph only skills and classes for all pvp!!! Bring back Balance, Bring back Skill, innovation, fun
HA : New maps not new win conditions, old "holding style" no kill count, or simply make halls gvg style although reward more fame per win since matches will last 20-30 min
TA: mabey make TA like Hero Battles, with shrines and same win conditions only 4 humans not 1 human and 3 Ai
RA : Faction only no glad points, (bye bye sync farmers and leavers/rage QQers
HvH : if 4 members then One profession of each type within the group

GvG: Remove Jade, allow people to pick or randomize hall selection for battle, do away with 4 members from the same guild!! a vast majority of players cant gvg simply because they dont have a guild/people to gvg with. I say allow people to form in an outpost not GH "OR" keep the current ladder system and have a seperate reward system for those that can enter a GvG with any 7 other players much like you see in HA ( of coarse they or their guild will not be rewarded on the ladder, but give them fame, or at least a chest to open if they win, along with the fact that they have had the enjoyment of gvging when they previously have not been able to) this allows more people to gvg.

all nightfall/factions skills and classes can be buffed and made for pve only.

Well as a pvp veteran these are my suggestions I just dont want to see GW turn into another third party chat program for many people. please anyone comment on these suggestions meabey we cant get a poll on something and get something changed before its too late.