Curse

crimsonfilms · May 07, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

GW PvP is dying in the US but not Europe. It is actually doing well in Europe.

Koreans are not playing as much for several reasons - one of the major ones are that some of the key players (thus guild) are doing their required military duties.

Blaming the community for a stagnat build is utterly dumb and misses the point of 'competition'. The goal is 'TO WIN' not find something 'unique and cool'. Take an art class if you want that. The reality is there are only a small portion of the entire skill set that is viable.
Unyielding Aura for Monk elite? ROFL. Even in PvE that skill is horrendous.

So in short GW PvP in USA and some parts of Asia - yes it is dying. In Europe? No.

And yea HvH and HA are NOT high-end PvP.

HvH is probably below HA in regards to credibility and respect.

The consensus is GvG is only one being high-end PvP. HA is middle.

RA and TA is the low end.

AB is not even considered PvP. It is PvP-ish for PvE.

linh · May 07, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I assume that the "PvP" you guys are discussing on this thread are high end pvp ( aka GvG). If so, yes, it is dying.
Inability to balance skills, lack of competitive environment ( nearly 10 months since GWFC with only the video card short tournament, and ATS keeps delaying) drag to many good guilds and good players quit the game. And the future is not brighter : no big championship anymore, next and perharps last expansion is pve only. There are only few really good guilds left in both Europe and America. GW is already dead in Korea. Even watching obs is more boring than playing RA now.

Death_From_Above · May 07, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Well as a once hard core pvper who like many others have stopped playing guildwars i can tell you what problem is affecting the majroity. HA in its poor state and anets constant encouraged destruction of it has resulted in a collapse of many guilds which where say both HA and Gvg. You would find players who HAed, many gvged also but HA was their primary focus being they could get HA running much easier and quicker than gvg. Basically a rubbish HA means less people come on meaning gvg is less possible meaning these skilled players eventually give up and gg disband. This has happened to many guilds such as Dogs i believe and four and others i can remember.

Also the problems anet have created in relation to HA and the time their taking to fix it has basically ment many players have quit out of frustation or sit on the forums (HA section). If you want you can go their and see some of the problems and reasons why many experianced players have quit, its think like kill count promoting spike so balanced and pressure builds really stand no chance ect and aoe scrub fests because of it also. Theres loads hence why i dont want to list them all.

PVP is dying because anet also released some skills like that pargon skill, cant remember the name off the top of my head but it means hero cannot be interupted. Its dumbens down the game although this isnt the concern of many players at the moment. Also you have things like pargons having 80 + armour, these are ment to be backline characters? Its just clearly not balanced. Basically pvp in terms of HA has become very one sided and this has put players off. This results in less players playing ha and the reason why you find less build diversity is because there the builds that only work because of the mechanics.

To sum up, gvg isnt at its best because one reason is skilled players who played HA and gvg dont have HA here to keep them here any more. Results in a collapse of guilds which have the potential to be experianced gvgers.

Anets hand in the mehanics ect and skills have ment only certain things in HA work so it forces people to play particular builds.

Also the fact many people have quit because of anets changes has resulted in less players itself meaning less potential for build diversity.

Did this help in anyway?

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

How about the fact that PvPers aren't very welcoming to new players?

New players dont grow. They get smothered and never come back cause of elitist jerks. New players dont get encouraged, they get told to go back to PvE.

GG noob. etc.

Would you say that has SOME contribution to the overall so called "death" of PvP?

linh · May 07, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

That is also one of big problems. To be competitive, you must have 3 chapters = 150$, and spend quite a lot of time to be UAX ( it is even harder for newcomers because they can't GvG and HA, and have to earn factions in RA, TA,etc.., which are much slower)
It is too late to fix it now because ANet can't change their business model, and player base already reduce dramatically. At least they know about that and make pvp UAX in GW 2, but for now GW is dying in both quality and quantity of players.

crimsonfilms · May 07, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How about the fact that PvPers aren't very welcoming to new players?

New players dont grow. They get smothered and never come back cause of elitist jerks. New players dont get encouraged, they get told to go back to PvE.

GG noob. etc.

Would you say that has SOME contribution to the overall so called "death" of PvP?

This comment is quite absurd and misinformed. What game or competitive environment do you know of that a veteran welcomes new players with open arms? It is a competition - what did you expect?
It is not the current players responsibility to cuddle new players. That is ANet's.

A more apt criticism is the learning curve of GvG, and to a lesser extent HA, is quite steep. Growing and maintaining an active GvG roster is also quite difficult because you have to manage 8 or more real life schedule.

Renewing the player base is a problem. Things like cost, unlock rate, learning curve, scheduling, balancing frustration, etc are at fault. Blaming the current player just illustrates the lack of insight of what really goes in PvP.

If you quit because some one called you a 'noob' it is 99% likely you are not in it for the long haul or lack the 'personality' to be in a highly competitive environment. In any competitive environment, trash talking becomes more intense as the stakes get higher. The reality, these kind of players is not what going to save GW. They are unlikely to to put up with the other more serious problems I previously mentioned.

Taki · May 07, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Thank you for your input, but I don't really appreciate intentionally trying to insult people in order to close this thread, which I think is important, considering with the state of pvp right now.

1. You are right in that any constructive pvp thread is important considering the state, especially if it generates healthy suggestions or discussion for the game that by some miracle make it to the devs attention.

2. You are WoMD wrong in thinking I was insulting anyone or trying to close the thread (see 1). History has shown that most strictly pvp-related threads get swarmed with primarily pve players with an axe to grind and it spirals into a childish pve vs pvp thing that goes nowhere and would make any dev reading turn away in disgust. That's where that comment came from.

3. PvP is seeing a lot of attention right now but that does not help the players who left long ago while it was allowed to stagnate, nor does it help those left behind by these same friends/guilds that migrated to other games, or those like me who stuck it out and appreciate the effort ANet is now making but have become some jaded that it doesn't even matter at this point. All the latest updates have done nothing to make me feel like getting back into the game and yes, obviously, others will feel quite different than me. I envy those people.

Buster · May 07, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

I don't think pvp is dead at all. I just think that pvp is more of the minority group compared to pve. Most MMO's and RPG's today are pve oriented with the OPTION to pvp. Maybe in the near future that will change. I hope so because pvp is alot of fun.

lacasner · May 07, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

The reality is, PvP NEEDS more players.

Maybe, but why do that, just so I can see 15 SoR monks instead of 5, and 15 shock axe wars instead of 3? Again, players isn't the problem, its skill balance.

Orbberius · May 07, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Player attitude is probably the smallest possible problem with PvP.

The biggest problem is the insane complexity of the game and the amount of grind needed to PvP at a decent level. People who start PvPing and find out they suck at it won't even know why they suck at it until they spend 100 hours learning the skills and combinations and finding out what works and why it works and why what you tried before doesn't work. Wow.

Today I had to explain to someone in Kamadan AM1 how to unlock Heroes Ascent and reach the Hall of Heroes. I honestly felt bad explaining the steps to him. It's laughable that you even have to unlock PvP arenas.

In terms of getting RL friends involved: in a game like StarCraft or CS, your friends get a copy of the game, you explain some basic things, everyone gets together on some server (or start a compstomp match in the case of starcraft) and explain things and teach as you go along. It doesn't take very long at all for the new guy to reach the other guys' level and now you can play each other. Only in GuildWars do you have to play by yourself till you win 5 in a row in Random Arena, and only THEN can your friends help you. If that isn't frustrating and a poor design decision, I don't know what is. And of course, if you want to be competitive, you need to buy all three (soon 4!) chapters and unlock relevant skills. gg no re. I try to get my friends to play GuildWars (I offer all the trial keys I have amassed over the 2 years), but I'm completely not surprised that they'd just rather play something else. I would too, the world is not starved for good games by any means.

Guild Wars just isn't suitable for fun, popular competitive PvP in the likes of StarCraft or FPS games, and it's not getting any better, ATs or no ATs. There will always be a select few playing, but that's what they are, a select few. Here's to hoping GW2 is better, but I'll be very skeptical till I see with my own eyes.

NoChance · May 07, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I think on of the problems is that there's no place for beginners to learn...

if Anet had level-capped the newbie arenas like everyone wanted, then those could have been used to slowly learn the ins and outs of the game while still being competitive and fun. Too late now, of course.

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

You are comparing martial arts, which BTW teaches sportsmanship as part of their curriculum, to the anonymous internet? Apples and oranges.

Hey you asked me for a game or competitive environment where Veterans welcome newbies.

There you go.

Martial arts is as competitive and brutal as things can get.

Quote:

Well if you wanted it, ask ANet. Don't ask your competition.

I didnt ask.

Quote:

True, but attitudes will not change the shrinking player base. It may make it more friendly, but you will still get bored, frustrated, and tired players getting more disillusioned.

I dont expect people to change. But i do expect people to realize that its a problem.

lacasner · May 08, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

The biggest problem is the insane complexity of the game and the amount of grind needed to PvP at a decent level. People who start PvPing and find out they suck at it won't even know why they suck at it until they spend 100 hours learning the skills and combinations and finding out what works and why it works and why what you tried before doesn't work. Wow.

I don't know how long it took you, but I got it in about a few days lol, its not that complex really. 8 skills, logical attribute distribution, and from there its just finding the dominant "build" of the time, i.e. observer mode or through a bit of experience. Again, the biggest problem is that only x combinations work and not x+y, so you see people just doing the same things over and over again on the same maps, which is leaving something very important to be desired

Vermilion · May 08, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

@Lyra - Sure its a problem. But! if you can't keep your current customers from leaving, then bringing more people in won't make up for that. Well I guess it could, but not due to a smaller amount of asshats in the game. You just can't change people.

how much money do you think you can throw at Anet (new ppl buying the game) before the population is convinced the game is balanced enough to play competitively? (There isn't enough money in the world.)

The auto UAX in Gw2 seems like a step in the right direction..albeit the only thing that appears that way in regards to GWII. Although Im hopeful Anet abandons the useless values that influenced GW..like having a balanced PvE and PvP in the same game. Although I don't see that possible. (I like the no monthly fee idea though, keep that.

)

Bryant Again · May 08, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

They should disable local chat (and maybe emotes) in battle areas, imo.

lilnate22 · May 08, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

pvp is dying because of one thing..stupid nerfs...true SOMe nerfs i.e Zb,iway,aze frm beyond etc etc is needed but some are just completely pointless i.e BOA..y nerf that simply because sooo many asssasins used it? should mending be nerfed god forbid that alot of wars run around w/ it?

my point is that= uncalled for nerfing causes some people to leave...reducing the total pvp players by a lil...what remain is the uber"leet" players that constantly ask for r5-12 players for HA ans such...wich new pvp cant even compete w/

Ensign · May 08, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil joo

Introduction of observer mode created a fast pace meta-game. Innovation and the excitement of a making a "new build" has diminish, and Anet lost the ability to fix overpowered skills.

I don't think that observer mode has really hurt innovation. Builds have evolved much more quickly in light of it, as any new ideas spread like wildfire. As you said, it's a much more fast paced metagame. Personally I prefer things that way, but I think it ended up punching them in the face on the balance side of things. A faster paced metagame finds the high points more quickly, the broken stuff perpetuates and dominates the metagame within days because everyone sees it. That's in contrast to the slow evolution of the game when GW first came out, where it took months for people to figure out what was going on and what everyone was playing. Imbalances could linger for quite a while back then without causing huge problems. They can't anymore.

Problem being, that the pace of updates has slowed down, not sped up to keep pace with the community. Before it took everyone months to understand what was going on, so it wasn't a problem if it took the devs a month to implement a change. Now, a lot of balance problems become clear within a week of a change, but still nothing is done for several months - and even then, the balance updates miss the mark as often as they hit.

Just to spell it out clearly - the HA metagame this weekend was Soul Reaping-powered Spiritway (hey guys, you didn't fix it!) and Searing Flamesway (5/3 or 6/2, pick your favorite!). Two weeks ago, the metagame was Spiritway and Searingway. Next week, the metagame will be Spiritway and Searingway. Is that fun? For a couple hours maybe. But over the course of a month, imbalances wear at the game, and people decide to go and do something fun rather than play a bad game.

GvG? It's still a great format in general, but has been poorly supported for a while. Remember back in December when Arena.net said 'get into your guild now, automated tournaments are coming!' because of the waiting period? Well, guess what, it's taken four months and counting for them to get that going, and what we've had in the meantime is a 5k ladder to play on. That really encourages people to stick with the game.

Other dimensions of PvP are even worse. Alliance Battles and FA/JQ had a lot of potential as semi-casual PvP, but have been so thoroughly neglected that they've fallen to joke status.

Basically, the game had (and, in some ways, still has) a lot of potential, if the developers would actually take the time to support their product after release. But without support it's just been left to a slow death, which hasn't been fun to watch. It's sad really, since it really wouldn't have taken that much to make this game's popularity go through the roof.

Peace,
-CxE

Orbberius · May 08, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

I don't know how long it took you, but I got it in about a few days lol, its not that complex really. 8 skills, logical attribute distribution, and from there its just finding the dominant "build" of the time, i.e. observer mode or through a bit of experience. Again, the biggest problem is that only x combinations work and not x+y, so you see people just doing the same things over and over again on the same maps, which is leaving something very important to be desired

i dont think you have much of a clue

Series · May 08, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think that observer mode has really hurt innovation. Builds have evolved much more quickly in light of it, as any new ideas spread like wildfire. As you said, it's a much more fast paced metagame. Personally I prefer things that way, but I think it ended up punching them in the face on the balance side of things. A faster paced metagame finds the high points more quickly, the broken stuff perpetuates and dominates the metagame within days because everyone sees it. That's in contrast to the slow evolution of the game when GW first came out, where it took months for people to figure out what was going on and what everyone was playing. Imbalances could linger for quite a while back then without causing huge problems. They can't anymore.

Problem being, that the pace of updates has slowed down, not sped up to keep pace with the community. Before it took everyone months to understand what was going on, so it wasn't a problem if it took the devs a month to implement a change. Now, a lot of balance problems become clear within a week of a change, but still nothing is done for several months - and even then, the balance updates miss the mark as often as they hit.

Just to spell it out clearly - the HA metagame this weekend was Soul Reaping-powered Spiritway (hey guys, you didn't fix it!) and Searing Flamesway (5/3 or 6/2, pick your favorite!). Two weeks ago, the metagame was Spiritway and Searingway. Next week, the metagame will be Spiritway and Searingway. Is that fun? For a couple hours maybe. But over the course of a month, imbalances wear at the game, and people decide to go and do something fun rather than play a bad game.

GvG? It's still a great format in general, but has been poorly supported for a while. Remember back in December when Arena.net said 'get into your guild now, automated tournaments are coming!' because of the waiting period? Well, guess what, it's taken four months and counting for them to get that going, and what we've had in the meantime is a 5k ladder to play on. That really encourages people to stick with the game.

Other dimensions of PvP are even worse. Alliance Battles and FA/JQ had a lot of potential as semi-casual PvP, but have been so thoroughly neglected that they've fallen to joke status.

Basically, the game had (and, in some ways, still has) a lot of potential, if the developers would actually take he time to support their product after release. But without support it's just been left to a slow death, which hasn't been fun to watch. It's sad really, since it really wouldn't have taken that much to make this game's popularity go through the roof.

Peace,
-CxE

Great post. I agree with most of what you said. Especially about AB and FA/JQ... does anet really expect the community to be occupied with 5 maps, only one of which is BALANCED? I understand Anet's idea, but making maps unbalanced on purpose doesn't make things any more fun...

Baba_Beast · May 08, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

I dont think PVP is dying. dying means that eventually no one will PVP in a short time.

Agreed nerf are getting PVP worse. I mean: why nerfing the SF builds and the para builds just cause people complain? There are 250 elites in the game.

lets exagerate: if we say that 100 elites are shit in PVP,there are 150 good elites left.lets say the possibility is 20 different build per elites.
THAT IS 3000 ******* BUILDS!!!and im exagerating so there is like more than 5000 good builds possible around ! dont tell me that there's not a counter to SF in that 5000. but people are too idiot to find build by themselves so they just complaint and say its impossible so whats the result? NERF.

now you're happy cause your ctrl+c, ctrl+v build is the best around (also the only one).