Curse

Div · May 25, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

This is why PvE is awesome! :O

yesitsrob · May 25, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

This thread is awesome. <3

Too bad there's a huge gap between NOW and SC2. >_>.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 25, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Hhmm so where's that new Isle Of Jade update at? Still coming "SOON"??

martialis · May 25, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

QQ

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=177
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0160139&page=3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

Its a shame they don't listen to the pvp community, because these new games like Warhammer Online will entice everyone that enjoyed pvp in GW away, and they won't return for the new chapter or for GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I think anet still thinks people who are frustrated with balance are the vocal minority. The sad thing is we are, because everyone else is already playing wow or sc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

But its may 2007, and all I can say is "Epic fail as usual". GG anet.

Relambrien · May 25, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

are we that much of a minority they won't miss the pvp population when they give up to play Warhammer Online?

Yes.

Someone did these calculations somewhere, so I'm reiterating them.

Okay, ANet has said 3,000,000 accounts have been created. Let's assume that all of these accounts are tied to a different individual person, instead of people having multiple accounts. Now since this announcement was quite a while ago, I think about 3,000,000 players NOW is close enough to being accurate for the purposes of these calculations.

Now, let's take a look at the ladder and assume all of those guilds are filled to the brim, with 100 people. We can safely assume that straight PvP'ers, and those who care more about PvP than PvE, are all in this top 1000 (more or less). That's 100,000 people, at most, who care about PvP more than PvE. That's 3.33% of the playerbase.

Now let's use more realistic numbers. Assume 2,000,000 actual players, accounting for those with multiple accounts and those who have quit. Even if 100,000 of those are STILL what we would call PvPers, that's 5% of the playerbase.

Getting even more realistic, let's average out the number of members in the top 1000 guilds and assume the average is about 30 per guild. That's 30,000 players out of 2,000,000, or 1.5%.

Somehow, I don't think Anet would miss a group that only made up 1.5% to 5% of their playerbase. The other 95% probably dabble in PvP, but wouldn't really care if it was eliminated. Most HA'ers are like this, and HA-only guilds are covered by the overestimates shown above.

So yes, we're that much of a minority that Anet wouldn't really care if we didn't keep playing. 5% just isn't that much.

Blame the Monks · May 25, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Here is a more fair count -- check how many districts there are of each pvp outpost. Then check all the pve towns. You will typically find there are 10 pvp districts at any given time. At 100 max per district, let's call that 1000 people. Probably another several thousand afking or obsing or wishing they could play but don't have people on. This doesn't count euros and azns of course. With all that together, lets call it 5k people involved in pvp at any given moment.

I remember diabloii had a /users command or w/e, and it generally had around 100-175k people online (counting bots and afks), but remember, d2 sold over 17 million games. And when anet talks about 3 million, that means 3 million of ANY chapter, so many of that is recounting for people who own multiple accounts or multiple chapters. If D2 is a good standard, that means between 0.5% and 1% log on at any given time. With 3 million sold, that means 15-30k online at any given time, and if I am right about the 5k estimate earlier, that means between 1/3 and 1/6 are playing PvP.

PvP is a minority, but not as large as people act like. And more importantly, we are the flagship of the game. If GW PvP doesn't work, you may as well be playing wow.

Relambrien · May 25, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Here is a more fair count -- check how many districts there are of each pvp outpost. Then check all the pve towns. You will typically find there are 10 pvp districts at any given time. At 100 max per district, let's call that 1000 people. Probably another several thousand afking or obsing or wishing they could play but don't have people on. This doesn't count euros and azns of course. With all that together, lets call it 5k people involved in pvp at any given moment.

I remember diabloii had a /users command or w/e, and it generally had around 100-175k people online (counting bots and afks), but remember, d2 sold over 17 million games. And when anet talks about 3 million, that means 3 million of ANY chapter, so many of that is recounting for people who own multiple accounts or multiple chapters. If D2 is a good standard, that means between 0.5% and 1% log on at any given time. With 3 million sold, that means 15-30k online at any given time, and if I am right about the 5k estimate earlier, that means between 1/3 and 1/6 are playing PvP.

PvP is a minority, but not as large as people act like. And more importantly, we are the flagship of the game. If GW PvP doesn't work, you may as well be playing wow.

Alright, let's consider this then. I'll go check things right now.

There are currently 8 PvP districts.

On my PvE characters, which don't have anywhere near the total amount of outposts, I see the following.

65 Tyrian districts
48 Canthan districts
40 Elonian districts
9 Realm of Torment districts

This is a total of 162 PvE districts compared to 8 PvP districts. 8/170 is less than 5%.

Also, the 3 million was the number of accounts created iirc, not the number of units sold. Meaning since the majority of players have all three campaigns, the actual number of units sold would be much much higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

And more importantly, we are the flagship of the game. If GW PvP doesn't work, you may as well be playing wow.

Hundreds of thousands of PvE-only players disagree with you. They'd rather play GW PvE than WoW, for whatever reason.

Servant of Kali · May 26, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

You guys forget Guild Hall districts

Those going to GvG don't really hang out in TA district

Blame the Monks · May 26, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

You guys forget Guild Hall districts

Those going to GvG don't really hang out in TA district

Plus the people actually in an instance, which we have no way of estimating either in pvp or pve. This isn't exact by any means, but still.

Phades · May 26, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

There are currently 8 PvP districts.

On my PvE characters, which don't have anywhere near the total amount of outposts, I see the following.

65 Tyrian districts
48 Canthan districts
40 Elonian districts
9 Realm of Torment districts

This is a total of 162 PvE districts compared to 8 PvP districts. 8/170 is less than 5%.

Also, the 3 million was the number of accounts created iirc, not the number of units sold. Meaning since the majority of players have all three campaigns, the actual number of units sold would be much much higher.

Hundreds of thousands of PvE-only players disagree with you. They'd rather play GW PvE than WoW, for whatever reason.

Adjust for the farming bots, the many individuals that simply dance for hours endlessly, and the individuals that only spam in local chat for sales and you can't tell if they are even at the keyboard, then recalculate.

It can be argued that those individuals do not really play the game. Then refigure for all the pvp individuals that can not be accounted for since you do not know how many of them are actually playing the game in instances. Pve has a similar counterweight, but is more likely to be solo play than group play as pvp dictates.

No i am not saying that there are more pvp accounts, or indiivduals that do not do both, but the spin you are playing here is rather inacurate of who is actually using the mechanics of the game opposed to simply residing within it.

Relambrien · May 26, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Adjust for the farming bots, the many individuals that simply dance for hours endlessly, and the individuals that only spam in local chat for sales and you can't tell if they are even at the keyboard, then recalculate.

It can be argued that those individuals do not really play the game. Then refigure for all the pvp individuals that can not be accounted for since you do not know how many of them are actually playing the game in instances. Pve has a similar counterweight, but is more likely to be solo play than group play as pvp dictates.

No i am not saying that there are more pvp accounts, or indiivduals that do not do both, but the spin you are playing here is rather inacurate of who is actually using the mechanics of the game opposed to simply residing within it.

Adjust the PvP count for those who are in obs, or afk'ing in their guild hall, and the calculation holds. As for the instance thing, I'm pretty sure the same ratios apply but like Blame said, there's no way of calculating it so there's no point trying to fit it into an equation.

Phades · May 26, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Then why bother comparing, since the only people that matter are the ones playing the game in instances?

As your method only highlights the people who do not play the game. The Guilldhall, obs mode and others would arguably be playing if they had the means to do so.

Surena · May 27, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

PvP is a minority, but not as large as people act like. And more importantly, we are the flagship of the game. If GW PvP doesn't work, you may as well be playing wow.

Wrong. No monthly fees, decent presentation, that's the flagship. That's why GW2 will be a success too.

Div · May 27, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

PvP is a minority, but not as large as people act like. And more importantly, we are the flagship of the game. If GW PvP doesn't work, you may as well be playing wow.

Well. PvP players were the flagship of the game before. Now, Anet has pretty much given up on PvP and have moved on to making new PvE titles and GW2...

wuzzman · May 28, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

HA needed looking at (i.e. totally removing it and starting again), Hexes need looked at. Certain gvg maps need looked at (Infact the whole gvg map thing needs looked at - several good suggestions have been proposed on these forums that solve the imbalanced map problem).

Why has Anet refused to address these problems?? Either they don't care about pvp (are we that much of a minority they won't miss the pvp population when they give up to play Warhammer Online?) or they are too busy pushing this new chapter and working on GW2 that they don't have time for coding much needed fixes?

Its a shame they don't listen to the pvp community, because these new games like Warhammer Online will entice everyone that enjoyed pvp in GW away, and they won't return for the new chapter or for GW2.

lol, if the pvp community of Guild Wars moves to Warhammer Online I give that game 6 months to survive. What is wrong now? Is it the fact that GvG is dominated by balance builds? Or is it that people are using necro's, the class that has 1/3 of the anti-warrior skills in the game, as intended? Ha...died, a long time ago, 1 year ago exactly. Probably because our "pvp" community was so concerned about changing courtyard when players who weren't r6 and above was leaving in droves. Why fix maps like courtyard when 99% of the players in HA haven't even seen courtyard??? Why not...fix pugging, the community can't facilitate it why encourage anet to step in and reorder HA accordingly (maybe seperate the districts by rank...). Caring nothing about new players, new players in turn caring nothing about pvp, and wondering why the pvp community (which is already small) is shrinking? When the pvp community started to sound like the pve community of various extra crappy games like WoW, is when I figure anet stoped caring. Makes me sad I call myself a pvp'er...

Faith Taylyn · May 29, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Caring nothing about new players, new players in turn caring nothing about pvp

I don't know the whole deal behind why people generalize that all the good PvP'ers are arrogant snobs that don't care about the rest but let me assure you that there's equal amount of those in all the different player groups. The fact that these guys who are planning to start to PvP have been scared away for a long time by the beginner PvP'ers who didn't get to a rank 9+ group, crying in every single forum about the "horrible" elitism that apparently is being done by every single high level PvP'er, no wonder we aren't getting any fresh blood...

The reason why the PvP player base is shrinking is because the beginner PvP'ers don't want to make a commitment to become better, but rather whine how higher tier PvP'ers are treating them wrong, when it really is their own fault.

And btw, you might want to check your statement that GvG is dominated by balanced builds.

DutchSmurf · May 29, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith Taylyn

The reason why the PvP player base is shrinking is because the beginner PvP'ers don't want to make a commitment to become better, but rather whine how higher tier PvP'ers are treating them wrong, when it really is their own fault.

You mean the new pvp-players don't want to play for months first until they can start enjoying the game? Some commitment is a good thing, but don't tell me that it is the fault of the new players that they don't want to pay 150 euro and then have farm for 6 months (unlocks+fame+other titles) until they can get into decent groups.

Faith Taylyn · May 29, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

You mean the new pvp-players don't want to play for months first until they can start enjoying the game? Some commitment is a good thing, but don't tell me that it is the fault of the new players that they don't want to pay 150 euro and then have farm for 6 months (unlocks+fame+other titles) until they can get into decent groups.

I used a poor term when I said "new PvP'ers". What I meant was the people who have the unlocks + all 3 chapters and are starting/thinking of starting to PvP seriously, but don't this when their not allowed to rank X groups or to a rank X guild. At this point they shouldn't just complain why this happens and scare other similar people from trying out as well, but rather make a guild with some of those equally good, committed new PvP'ers and learn by doing.

I am aware of the steep learning curve that is one of the general flaws of GW, it is an issue and has been an issue for a long time already.

DutchSmurf · May 29, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith Taylyn

At this point they shouldn't just complain why this happens and scare other similar people from trying out as well, but rather make a guild with some of those equally good, committed new PvP'ers and learn by doing.

Which brings you to the next problem, trying to find players just like you. It is already very hard to get 8 people for a mission. To get 8 players who want to start pvp, have no experience but are willing to learn..... I won't call it impossible, but at the very best it is extremely hard.

Faith Taylyn · May 29, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Which brings you to the next problem, trying to find players just like you. It is already very hard to get 8 people for a mission. To get 8 players who want to start pvp, have no experience but are willing to learn..... I won't call it impossible, but at the very best it is extremely hard.

It is very hard, it used to be much easier "back in the day" when most of the better PvP'ers used to do HA and multiple good guilds were formed in there from people you had already known for a while and you knew their good.