Curse

Nekretaal · Jun 07, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Overused and broken are two different things. There are factors other than power level that may lead to something being overused, even if its not overpwered (for example, the first month of the Nightfall Metagate was mostly pre-nightfall builds. Despite the fact that the Nightfall skills were more powerful, the older skills were (1) already unlocked, and (2) well know and mastered by players already).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiant Dawnstar

Example. Game A has two severely broken Warriors builds. These builds are much more efficient than all other Warriors builds, thus rendering every other Warrior build ineffective. Say three quarters of all Warrior builds are either of these two builds. Obviously, this is not balanced. This is imbalanced, boring, and annoying because you'll have to fight them over and over again. It doesn't allow variety and everyone will cry for nerfs.

But Game B on the other hand has ten broken Warriors builds. These builds are so extremely broken that every other Warrior build is considered Wammo material and laughed at. At first glance you would think that this situation is even worse, but it is the exact opposite. I will explain.

In my opinion, broken builds are broken builds. It doesnt matter if there are 2 of them or 10 of them. A good example might be the beta Dervishes. There were a ton of different things you could do with them... but every one of them was broken. Because there were many broken things a dervish could do, a dervish vs dervish metagame even developed. It turned pvp that weekend into a joke. Sure Game B is better than Game A, but both are broken games.

Now take a classic overused build, say Boon Prot. At its height, the community thought this was the "best" monk build. It could do everything a monk should do well: spike healed / pressure healed / removes conditions / removed hexes / had contemplation of purity for easy self heal & stack removal. But it wasnt "broken," in the sense that the game was still very fun with Boon Prots around. Other monk skills could have been buffed to the power of boon prot, and it would have still been ok for the game too.

Boon Prot got nerfed because it was too widely played, and made certain offensive strategies unplayable (it was better against some strategies than other strategies), and players wanted to play these strategies. It also outclassed some defenisve strategies and players wanted to play these too.

Now that these offensive strategies (hexes, etc) are now the metagame and are overplayed builds every bit as tired as boonprot was, why not re-buff Boonprot to the previous level? the skills really (not nightfall junk.. I'm taking about stuff like migraine and fainteartedness and Aegis) arent overpowerd.. people are just tired of playing with them for now. I dont see why not.

Zuranthium · Jun 07, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Anet has so much time they could actually pull something off like this. But they won't, so the best we're hoping for are minor nerfs to a couple skills :P

Meh, change doesn't happen if someone doesn't start the process.

9/10 classes done!!! Ugh, I have Ritualist left. This is going to give me a massive headache.

~Z

Anti Oath · Jun 08, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Meh, change doesn't happen if someone doesn't start the process.
9/10 classes done!!! Ugh, I have Ritualist left. This is going to give me a massive headache.
~Z

ignore my grammer/spelling
I think anet is approaching game balance all wrong (im sure you all know this already). They balance skills in updates with a lot of skills being updated at once, and then a really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really long time passes, then they balance another big list. Anet needs to have more updates more often, and i would even say change the skills discription if it doesn't work in GW. For what reason are there skills that are never used? Theres like 1135 skills and 290 elites and millions of combonations right? How many of those 1135 skills and 290 elites accually get used? you might as well remove them from the game tbh.
<3 Anet

*Forgot about the 290 Elites!

wuzzman · Jun 08, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Lesson 1.
Nerfs are not done to increase the amount of builds. They are designed to preserve the prefered meta. Any increase in available builds is due more to coincidence. For example alot of players want to nerf the "hex-metagame" not because it limits the amount of builds that can be played. But because the "hex-metagame" is very effective at shattering a balance build that doesn't invest slots to hex removal on midline casters.

Lesson 2.
Buffing creates more imbalance and doesn't solve the imbalancing that exist. Buffing the hard counters (divert hex, expel hex) to better counter the imbalance only makes this game more like rock, paper, scissors...something that players really don't want.

Lesson 3.
Buffing can end up doing nothing to the meta. Bringing everything to the same level doesn't encourage players to try something new. Only when the differences can be exploited that the buffed skill is looked at.

Lesson 4.
Izzy knows this, and does the nerf bat as following. Nerf what the players complain about, buff what no one knows about. Steadly and slowly. When Izzy balance its barely about "perfect" balance as oppose to moving the metagame to another direction (even sometimes at a stand still).

Skuld · Jun 08, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Nerfs are not done to increase the amount of builds. They are designed to preserve the prefered meta.

Are you kidding? They're done to make the game more desirable to play.

wuzzman · Jun 08, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Are you kidding? They're done to make the game more desirable to play.

the prefered meta is the "game desirable to play". What the metagame becomes, for example the current "hexway", is not always what the players prefer or desire, the metagame that existed in prefaction days. Nerfs are called down from that prespective or reference point as you will, when the community figured the game was at its most balanced. Nerfs are by no ways an incentive to "find new builds" but to stick to the one previously used before the imbalance was introduced.

Age · Jun 08, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Go play WoW. Grind until you have practically max equipment, get a team of 5 and head into the arenas. With that experience in mind, come back and discuss why this is a horrible idea.

P.S. Monk is a bad example, nothing they have right now is overpowered except maybe Aegis.

Aegis is not over powered if used right as it is relatively new to PvP.I use it but not in over kill with GoLe as I use it as a /W.

Apok Omen · Jun 09, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Stop living in the good ol' days and focus in on now. As much as we would all love to go back to the days of Prophecies, it isn't going to come back. Living and bragging about the past has no positive structure for the present and future.

Once Anet does decide to give us another skill update, we can then focus on how that will help. But personally, what I would like to see is another "Why we are making these updates" thread by Gaile so we could at least tap into Anet's minds and see what they are thinking and stop staring into the dark we call "what?"

The problem isn't that we need buffs instead of nerfs, it's that the experienced players have to grab Anet's attention. For too long, Anet has focused and experimented on the "newbs" because the game was not easy for them. It's the reason HA became 6v6 (which not alot of people cared about, but instead cared about the loss of good players), why the good skill bars were nerfed, and many other "starter" additions were made.

Anet will continue this until it really shows its damage. In all of their updates, there have been hints towards the fact that Anet changed them for the new-player's benefits. Also, they were slowly steered away from how the top players got to where they are now: by playing through the toughest and endless times of the game. The top guilds in the Prophecies era didn't get to the top 10 by being babied, they got there through challenge. However, today you will see a few top 10 guilds being beaten by rank 100+ guilds because ladder doesn't mean anything anymore.

Buffs will just do what they did for spikes: help never-before-used skills become suddenly imbalanced... But there is an exception for the skills heavily mentioned by the community, which are not only popular, but also balanced.

Also, Z, keep up the good work and keep high hopes that Anet will agree with it.

Dzan · Jun 09, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Here are my two cents...

Keep nerfing skills until Shock Axe warriors are the best offensive option in the game and Blind Bots are the best defensive option in the game.

wuzzman · Jun 09, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Here are my two cents...

Keep nerfing skills until Shock Axe warriors are the best offensive option in the game and Blind Bots are the best defensive option in the game.

aww spoken for the truth.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 09, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Factions wasn't particularly bad except for defensive spirit spam and maybe triple-smite. Nightfall and the post-NF buffs to crappy Factions were was much worse.

teleportation always makes games suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Aegis is not over powered if used right as it is relatively new to PvP.I use it but not in over kill with GoLe as I use it as a /W.

it's actually been around forever, and was always always problematic, but it was usually on midline, so they didn't have a 14 spec on it, so it was slightly easier to play around.

around · Jun 09, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

teleportation always makes games suck.

Return=win.

1234

Riotgear · Jun 10, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

teleportation always makes games suck.

Teleportation wasn't really even that popular except for Assassin base gankers with AOD, Death's Charge hammer spike, and monks using Return. I wouldn't call any of those three particularly problematic. The main issues were the SOH buff, Recall, and of course, practically every build that's ever spawned off of Shadow Prison.

moko · Jun 10, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

offensive teleports simply ruined the game while defensive ones are still fine.

the offensive ones basically kill any sort of placement and kiting (some even snare at that :|).

but yeah, i wouldn't mind if teleports were just removed..<_<.

Riotgear · Jun 10, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

offensive teleports simply ruined the game while defensive ones are still fine.

the offensive ones basically kill any sort of placement and kiting (some even snare at that :|).

but yeah, i wouldn't mind if teleports were just removed..<_<.

Situational stuff like Death's Charge on its 45-second recharge didn't really cause too many problems, nor did AOD.

I see teleports as having uses offensively for bypassing weak defenses and making plays because of it, but the problem with old SOH and Recall is that they're too foolproof. You can basically anchor really far from enemy territory, and escape at just about any time. Essentially, they're not something that has a reasonable tactical counter, which is why SOH was broken before and why Recall is broken now.

Shadow Prison is a problem because it allows classes that were balanced as being melee to ignore the drawbacks of melee and do caster spike instead.