Curse

Oceans Fury · Jun 05, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

This goes out to everyone who complains about builds in HA:

SHUT.

THE.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.

UP.

I am so tired of coming into ID1 to have a chat with some friends or to get some people for a group, and have some idiots in local chat arguing about how "gay" or "overpowerd" paragon/rit/sf spikes are.

Im so tired of having every discussion on a forum turn into a debate about how overpowerd a build is.

Fact: There is a counter to every build in the game.

Im sure its not just me, but many other players too. We're tired of your complaining. Its one thing to voice your opinion about a subject, its another to shove it down their throat.

The game has changed so much in the past couple of months, with different builds, different player limits, and different map objectives. I wouldnt be the least bit suprised for another little twist of fate before GW2 comes out.

So stop get the sand out of your pannies and stop whining like little girls who dont always get what they want. If these builds were that RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing overpowerd, they would have been nerfed long ago! But they were'nt, because Anet, believe it or not, actually does listen to its PvPers. Just because you all havent been approached personally with a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing engraved invitation to voice your opinions so that all can hear, doesnt mean they're not listening or watching.

Whats winning halls most of the time?

Balanced.

Why change something just because 60% of the players are way too lazy to get off their asses and figure out a way to counter the teams they loose too.

*Just for the record, I am not a Ritspiker, nor do I run paragon spike. I neither IWAY'd or SF spiked. I did bspike a bit, not that it saves any face, just thought Id let you know I dont think of myself as the greatest player alive.

Heres an example of a build to counter ritspike I run occasionaly:
1 Earthshaker Warrior
1 Dev Hammer Warrior
1 Shatter Storm Paragon
1 Icy Shackles Paragon
1 Power Block Mesmer
1 Vital Wep/Expel Hexes Rit
1 RC
1 LoD

If you can get 7 of your friends together, try running that and messing around with the skillbars and strategys that work for you.

Not that that build is the be all-end all of your worries, but for god sakes, stop RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing complaining for 2 hours and watch some matches and see how people better than yourselves beat teams that run the "gay" builds.

-Fury

*Sorry if this seems like a rant, I threw some advice in there so it wouldnt seem like a complete rant ^^.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 05, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Those builds are overpowered. Face the facts. Also, last time I checked, killcount makes it difficult to pack utility to counter things unless you're with 7 friends/people you know, and even then it's risky. That is why HA is dead, the balanced pug is non-existent because non-familiar players, or even groups that are just average or above average skill, not amazing, simply cannot win with balanced.

gasmaskman · Jun 05, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

You tell us to shut up about overpowered builds. Why?

You say there's a counter to every build, yet what happens when you pack in too many counters for one build? Another FoTM comes and whoops your ass.

You telling me that Anet hasn't balanced these builds because they're not overpowered? If they weren't overpowered, why have the replaced almost every single build used by players? HUH!? Yeah, there you go.

And don't tell me this: "you can counter it with diversion"

elektra_lucia · Jun 05, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I'm not one of the ones to whine but anyway. This post is a rant in itself, so you're a hypocrite. An apology is no use, as it was no mistake, you meant to make that post. It reminds me of when people say 'no offence but you're a dickhead'. Like 'no offence' excuses them from saying mean things.

Regardless, to stick to the topic. You're a fool, disable local chat.

Nice to know them people get to you. I thought people that played such builds weren't very smart myself, I guess you have the intelligence to be annoyed. I think I will start saying how builds are over powered in local chat, if this is what happens.

Quote:

If you can get 7 of your friends together, try running that and messing around with the skill bars and strategy's that work for you.

Over powered is not about a build being able to beat another build in my opinion. Over powered is when one takes little to no effort to win and the other takes a lot of effort to win.

Another build you have to think where to be, what skills to use, when to use them, etc etc etc. Much more complicated than that yes, but the point being one takes effort to win, the other takes less effort. The only question is, is it over powered, or is the other one under powered?

Lord Natural · Jun 05, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I'll complain if I feel like it, thanks. This is a forum.

I used to enjoy HA a great deal until anet changed the map objectives. The new objectives favored a biased build philosophy, which overpowered or not, shouldn't be forced upon players. Until anet fix their mistakes, I'll continue to oppose the current system. If some simple minded players prefer this system to the old one, so be it, voice your opinion as well. But I won't "STFU" on behalf of few simpleton Rit spikers who are terrified that their wretched build may soon be nerfed.

Narcism · Jun 05, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

The OP is an example of what happens when you don't understand game mechanics.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 05, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

If there were more general counters (dshot, diversion) in the game, I wouldn't be worried at all about these kinds of gimmicks, as the standard balanced team would easily be able to play through most of them with skill using counters that are useful versus every team that they face.

However, there aren't, which is bad. If you're being forced to bring specific counters, the game turns into RPS, which is bad for the game.

Yichi · Jun 06, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Yes because HA ID1 is the best place to go hang out in the game and chat with friends...

FoxBat · Jun 06, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Ritspike, paraway, and searing flames all saw winning plays in the latest gvg championship, especially on burning isle. Since all of HA is essentially burning isle (no splitting), it's no surprise, and not much to do with the admittedly flawed winning conditions.

Baba_Beast · Jun 07, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Over powered is not about a build being able to beat another build in my opinion. Over powered is when one takes little to no effort to win and the other takes a lot of effort to win.

Another build you have to think where to be, what skills to use, when to use them, etc etc etc. Much more complicated than that yes, but the point being one takes effort to win, the other takes less effort. The only question is, is it over powered, or is the other one under powered?

I dont agree with you and I'll explain why:

1- Lets take the example of the overpowered-easy-to-play-build: IWAY
2- take the opposite: balance

I can tell IWAY dont requires any effort, I did an IWAY once and there was no vent and we almost got to halls.

Balance requires effort, high-ranked players and strategy to win with that build. but when you play it good: ITS UNBEATABLE EXCEPT BY ANOTHER BALANCE.

why do you think ugly win halls most of the times with balance? becaus when the team is organized and high-ranked, this build can own every others. this is not overpowered?

so if I understand you good: you're telling that the only viable builds should be builds that requires effort right? and how about those rank 4 and less? you think that a balance of unranked people could beat a balance of rank 8 people?
spikes and IWAY are THE ONLY WAY to get fames for unranked people. and when you're high-ranked, just go balance with your guild and you'll laugh about that rank 1 RT spike team.

these build requires less effort yes, but they cannot win against those rank12 teams with a vent and a 2 hour preparation. they are easy fames for those less ranked people, otherwise, it will be impossible to get higher.

Div · Jun 07, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baba_Beast

Balance requires effort, high-ranked players and strategy to win with that build. but when you play it good: ITS UNBEATABLE EXCEPT BY ANOTHER BALANCE.

False.

Example 1: We beat sama and starcraft's r11+ group last night with ritspike. It was either a flawless or we had one death.

Example 2: We beat ugly running a semi-balanced build with a bunch of not-so-great-players. Some people in the group are not as high ranked as those r10+ ugly guys, and it shows lower ranked groups are still capable of playing balanced.

Example 3: MATH destroys a lot of high ranked balanced with IWAY.

This game shouldn't be build wars.

phasola · Jun 07, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Rank has nothing to do with it. When you play a lot with the same people it shows...

God Apprentice · Jun 07, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

With the shifts in the meta I wonder what is it Baba you are referring to as "IWAY"? You talking about the 4 W/R, 2 Necro(Taint and Orders), 2 Trapper build, the factions version with rit spammer, OoA? Steady Stance Warriors with the IWAY shout isn't IWAY. IWAY died a while back

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baba Beast

I can tell IWAY dont requires any effort, I did an IWAY once and there was no vent and we almost got to halls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baba Beast

why do you think ugly win halls most of the times with balance? becaus when the team is organized and high-ranked, this build can own every others. this is not overpowered?

From what I hear Leeloof doesn't talk on vent. So I suppose they run the build in a "Korean style", (do correct me if I am wrong, I never bothered to ask Fu how they play) which is what IWAY was known for. The reason [ugly] has so much success may be attributed to the fact that they have been HAing for quite a while (Leeloof is an alpha tester I believe)

Lorekeeper · Jun 07, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

hi

we [ugly ]have won HoH running the following things that refutes this build makes wins mentality.

Ritualist/elementalist - with aftershock and the rit elite that Kds nearby foes.

Monk/Warrior - with hammer bash and holy strike, and signet of judgement and stonesoul strike

Monk/Mes - Lifesheath prot

Warrior/Monk - Backbreaker+crushing+holy strike

do you see people running these all the time? No... but if we feel like running something weird and fun... we run it... and more often than not we win.

Our regular build contains an Air ele... and i often hear comments from other players outside [ugly] that air eles are useless in HA. I am mystified at how some people can make comments like these when we enjoy so much success running it. People really need to forget the whole build makes wins concept... its the players who win our matches not our build. If you rely on your build to win your matches for you, you are playing build wars and the skill levels on your team mean nothing!

Ha is about running something and being good at it, as long as the basic concept of the build doesnt fail the whole nature of HA is such that you should be able to win if you know what you are doing on each map. Many wins and loses are out of your teams influence anyway... especially on the 3way matches.

We run balanced builds because we love the challenge, we stick to the principles of the balanced team. Just because its easier to farm fame with builds like searing flames and rit spike it doesnt mean we run them... thats not why we play HA.

I personally just wish there were more guilds like us out there... i only know a few guilds who are as committed to running balanced as we are. The few times we ran a spike build... (last time was in 6vs6 we ran 4 invoke eles and 2 SoJ monks) it was done as a pure joke... thats how we see spike builds. We had so much fun winning kill counts but unforunately we got bored before we had the chance to try to win HoH with it.

unfortunately, its not that rewarding for guilds to stick to this committment to the balanced build. There have been numerous occasions when [ugly] has been ganked and played out of the match for reasons we never comprehend. I extend a great amount of respect to teams who play honourably and balanced... more so if they beat us, it would be nice if the same was extended to us. But hey we can live without it.

If only people were honest about what they were running in HA... fame farming builds or builds to make quality players. When we fight some rit spikes and searign flames teams they often admit to us that they run it because playing lame gets them fame... thats fair enough.

But there are teams who seem to believe that beating [ugly] running some gimmicky nonsense elevates them to some lofty skill level as players. Im sorry but the only time i recognise a worthy defeat is when we lose to teams running balanced builds. No gg to lamers im afraid. For me a 'gg' is a recognition of a good fight against a worthy opponent. IThe other day i was really pleased to see some players who usually run rit spike... try their hand at a balanced build. After that game i said gg... they simply explained to me that they wanna run balanced but their guild just wants to farm fame with spike. Its sad.

All im saying is that as long as you recognise your build for what it is then all builds have a equal right to competing in HA, and they all have equal chances of success if you know what you are doing.

The important thing for the me is that people also recognise the nature of their build and accept the reputation that follows from running them. I will never recognise or respect a player who behaves out of sync with his chosen playstyle. If you play lame... you will always be remembered as that and nothing more in my eyes.

As for how [ugly] operate as a team regarding vent etc... well... lets just say vent is for iway :P

disclaimer: these are my views as a player not the views of [ugly] as a guild

haha

lorekeeper

elektra_lucia · Jun 07, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

It may help to have good players, but there is going to be some point that the build helps. Otherwise, you could have good players and run mending. At what point do you define whether or not a build is better?

Quote:

All im saying is that as long as you recognise your build for what it is then all builds have a equal right to competing in HA, and they all have equal chances of success if you know what you are doing.

Well I will bring some rank12 good players to play my build. It's going to be nothing but mending and monks.

-------------------------

A good racing car driver can beat another driver with a better car than him. The fact is though, the person with the better car still holds the advantage to begin with.

The car is the build. That's the best way I can explain that

.

When you get two equal teams, with different builds. The team with the better build should win.

Another thing, is effort... One build may be slightly better than another, but one may take such little effort to play that it is the reason why people play it.

Rt spike for what it is, is over powered. You can say it's the players what define the game but:

It's easy to set up.
It's easy to find sheep that play it.
It's easy to sort out the tactics in game.
It's harder to monk vs compared to other builds for the effort put in.

A fast car may have some autopilot which may beat another car around a race track, but lose vs the best driver in a car without autopilot; however, the car with autopilot is still over powered and ridiculous because it takes zero effort.

Quote:

I dont agree with you and I'll explain why:

1- Lets take the example of the overpowered-easy-to-play-build: IWAY
2- take the opposite: balance

I can tell IWAY dont requires any effort, I did an IWAY once and there was no vent and we almost got to halls.

Balance requires effort, high-ranked players and strategy to win with that build. but when you play it good: ITS UNBEATABLE EXCEPT BY ANOTHER BALANCE.

why do you think ugly win halls most of the times with balance? becaus when the team is organized and high-ranked, this build can own every others. this is not overpowered?

so if I understand you good: you're telling that the only viable builds should be builds that requires effort right? and how about those rank 4 and less? you think that a balance of unranked people could beat a balance of rank 8 people?
spikes and IWAY are THE ONLY WAY to get fames for unranked people. and when you're high-ranked, just go balance with your guild and you'll laugh about that rank 1 RT spike team.

these build requires less effort yes, but they cannot win against those rank12 teams with a vent and a 2 hour preparation. they are easy fames for those less ranked people, otherwise, it will be impossible to get higher.

Firstly:

Quote:

why do you think ugly win halls most of the times with balance? becaus when the team is organized and high-ranked, this build can own every others. this is not overpowered?

To answer your question. It is because they play balanced. That is why they win halls with balanced. If they played RT spike, they'd win with RT Spike.

Quote:

so if I understand you good: you're telling that the only viable builds should be builds that requires effort right? and how about those rank 4 and less? you think that a balance of unranked people could beat a balance of rank 8 people?

No I'm not saying that. I was kind of asking a question, if one takes little effort to do well in (yes you may not win halls) and another takes more effort (for similar outcome) is one over powered.

To answer your other question. I do believe that. I played with heroes, some unranked people, myself who forgot to put points in inspiration for channeling (I was a prot monk). an unranked monk etc etc. We beat ren0s rank 10+ (with some rank12's) team. We did it again, too.

axe · Jun 07, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I personally just wish there were more guilds like us out there... i only know a few guilds who are as committed to running balanced as we are.

Just recognize that there are guilds out there commited to running a particular gimmick. They usually excell at it and they know the limitations of their chosen build and work with it. IWAY is an example (not the ZergIWAY) some people still run it "oldschool" because they love the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

unfortunately, its not that rewarding for guilds to stick to this committment to the balanced build. I extend a great amount of respect to teams who play honourably and balanced...

Again, there is some honour in running an inferior build (gimmick) if you do so to preserve it and also if you run the inferior build because it suits your playstyle. Losing is part of the equation when running gimmicks, you accept the fact that you will win less fame running a build, but sometimes you choose that over playing something you dont like as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

All im saying is that as long as you recognise your build for what it is then all builds have a equal right to competing in HA, and they all have equal chances of success if you know what you are doing.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

As for how [ugly] operate as a team regarding vent etc... well... lets just say vent is for iway :P

Thats hot

TheZens · Jun 07, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Personally im with lorekeeper on much of this balanced is and always will be my build of choice as well as inventing and playing our own builds that we made to both counter the meta and just try out because the build idea seems interesting and fun to play.

Right now im not able to do so and feel like im being rewarded for taking the time and effort to make those builds because of things like kill count and luck this game is now just as much about luck as skill at times. Im especially talking about those 3 way situations in hoh where you cant do anything about two teams snaring your relic runner in the final minute(no matter how many counters you have brought) or where a noob team on capture points decides its a good idea to not go after the current winning teams cap points and instead for 2 mins gank your points and just give the current winning side a huge advantage for the remaining minutes which often can make it impossible to catch back up. There is no point playing those odd and guild unique type builds if you cant at least get 3+ wins everytime you go in because it ultimatly gets frustrating losing and its especially bad when its because of things beyond your control.

Because of the current mechanics and continued lack of game and skill balancing most of my guild have quit the game or rarely play at the moment - Terra (r12), Faction(r12), Ayame(r11), shou(r11), Last Round(r12) only Lui(r12) and Storage(r12) are playing the game right now and then not that seriously with [Hex]

Until HA gets into a state where i can play almost any style of build i want and not feel im being punished too much for those build choices i really dont want to play. I want to be able to make and play and experiment with builds such as our old dual power block build when we were Titanic Deck Chair Attendents[SWIM] or our old spirit build that was based on lacerate/brambles/QZ, knockdowns, ritualist spirits and even had just two boon prot monks with signet of spirits. (i still have the video of us beating iA and winning HoH someone actually copied and put it on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dp2x2PstFY no idea who) we even messed around with a nasty energy denial QZ/NR signet build.

I guess my point is until Anet starts implementing better game mechanics and does more skill balancing there will be less and less guilds like [ugly] and more and more gimmick scrub guilds who rely on using overpowered rubbish to win. I dont blame anyone i just go and play other games.

Im In A Build · Jun 07, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Our regular build contains an Air ele... and i often hear comments from other players outside [ugly] that air eles are useless in HA. I am mystified at how some people can make comments like these when we enjoy so much success running it. People really need to forget the whole build makes wins concept... its the players who win our matches not our build. If you rely on your build to win your matches for you, you are playing build wars and the skill levels on your team mean nothing!

lorekeeper

i find this comment extremly cute and funny considering all your air eles do is spam blinding surge on recharge i dont know about you but theres really no skill at all involved in that and as for running orginal builds you guys do run some funny stuff but in the end it all comes out to you having at least 5 characters that can be hyper defensive and just spiking sure you dont have 8 rits but a spikes a spike

thezens- your comments are also extremely cute considering all those so called great players youve mentioned have all gotten fame from broken hexspam like jagged bones or just 7 hex spammers +1 sin

to the op people will keep on crying no matter what happens to this game everyone wants the game to bend to there direction so they just keep crying on forums intill it will

TheZens · Jun 07, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im In A Build

thezens- your comments are also extremely cute considering all those so called great players youve mentioned have all gotten fame from broken hexspam like jagged bones or just 7 hex spammers +1 sin

What do you expect us to run we were in a paragon metagame in 6v6 we had simply to have hexes and take vocal minority it was the only counter anet really gave us otherwise you had no chance to beat them. Nobody in 6v6 could make balance work we turned a boring metagame where matches were 20+ minutes long into a hex based metagame with matches running at normal times, yes we abused soul reaping yes we abused some hexes but our intention was simply how to beat overpowered paragons. The bottom line is broken skills are Anets job to fix and repeatedly i have complained on these forums about anet balancing the game properly part of that was doing something about soul reaping and its synergy with spirits and minions Anet have been shown to be slow about making the changes and even tell people to use the skills and counter the meta instead so thats what we did at the time. I make no excuses our build turned out to be too overpowered and deserved to be nerfed but our intentions were to counter the meta.

As for 7 hexes + sin huh what? we have never ever played such a build like that as a guild which shows you know very little about us. Our guild mentality is to counter the meta, play balanced builds in general and we simply just dont ever call spikes at all unless we simply cant kill anything. We have been doing so on and off for 18 months now.

Lorekeeper · Jun 07, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

bsurge ele requiring skill... since when did i say it did?

i made the simple statement to backup the claims in my post... that it really matters not what you run as long as you run it well.

i dont need to argue whether bsurge eles take any skill or not... its great anti meta utility against thumpers... hammer warriors... and the orb gives us a nice spike. The gale allows an extra interrupt on altar and a ranged snare. Who wouldnt want an air ele? We do... and we are highly successful with it.

with balanced builds theres no such thing as ''just spiking'' or ''just having 5 defensive characters'' if you think its that simple well... gl to you when you run balanced in HA. You will not get far.

I dont know where you got the idea of 5 defensive characters anyway... but i dont want to feed the troll.

we run balanced... if you had any idea of what that meant you wouldnt make a comment like that about our builds. I made no such invitation for you to comment on our builds either so why do you feel the need to enter into this discussion and start to flame 2 individual posters one after the other in 2 quite spiteful posts. We are contributing our thoughts in relation to the issue about the dominance of gimmick

what contribution to the discussion have you made just out of curiosity?

thought so

lorekeeper