Curse

Guardas · May 29, 2007, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

Ok I'm not with gus here, but saying you outsmart your opponents when you are just running a 3 person static recall split is a bit silly!

I wasn't referencing to us. There have been other split guilds that simply are not around anymore. That kind of play in general is dead. Just for the record, our split isn't static but does have a common configuration. There are always options to adapt that we do take advantage of depending on the situation.

Apok Omen · May 29, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardas

I don't understand how people can hate us for using the tools at our disposal to accomplish the goals we wish to acheive when every other guild is doing the same with their choice of builds/skills/halls. We play to our collective strengths and skillsets just like any other guild.

People will keep on saying "such or such gimmick is lame" in order to feel and sound smarter among the more skilled players (you know who you are...).

It has nothing to do on how you play it, just the build will get you automatically judged as "lame, unskilled gimmickers".

But, there are die hard guilds out there that focus their entire gameplay on a certain build, no matter how many people call it "ghey, lame, gimmicky, unskilled, etc.".

Such an example is RivR, the guild that constantly runs Recall/gank with 3 Sins, 3 Monks, and 2 SF Eles. Even though it was meant for only massive split-worthy halls, they became so skilled and used to their build, that they know many tricks and tactics.

A build is basically what you and your team make of it. It doesn't matter how overpowered/underpowered/gimmicky/lame it is, what matters is how you adapt to the build and use it to your advantage in any situation.

Frantic-Sheep · May 29, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Just a side note - I think (almost) every tournament is won with 'gimmick' stuff, or tactics that might be concidered lame... dont see this as a particular sad day in GW

Patrograd · May 29, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

I'm amazed that there is even a discussion about recall being broken, of course it is. And Corrupted is as broken a map as Jade is, if not more so, and considerably more broken than Burning. I dont think these are even matters for sensible discussion, everyone knows it to be true.

I dont have a problem with anyone running it either, the games are fun for the most part and its always a challenge. Teams have always run broken skills on broken maps and always will, the key thing is not to think that you're good as a result. Not because it makes you look silly (although it does) but because when your skill or map gets nerfed then you have an expectation issue to deal with in your team - your players will believe, wrongly in all probability, that they are high ranked skilled players, and they wont be happy when their rank takes the inevitable tanking that follows. Guilds often collapse under the ensuing e-drama.

Having that next gimmick lined up is key imo :-)

Billiard · May 29, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

This thread is not about debating which guilds are better or worse, or even which guilds are better at running what builds.

I like where the thread was going initially with the presence of gimmicks in ATs and such, as well as where it shifted to in regards to the changing meta and whatnot in Europe and NA. If you want to start a debate about who is the best guild at running particular builds, please start a new thread for it and do your best to avoid personal attacks and flaming.

Lodurr · May 30, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

[HAnD]'s triple hexer build is catching on in ladder play. Now no reasonable amount of hex removal is enough because your removals get Humilitied (2 copies), Diverted, etc. There's no 8v8 solution unless you completely overload on removals, thereby gimping your build against any other type of build.

The bright side is that this build is without a BA Ranger so splitting them and ganking is even easier.

I think hexes need to be reworked ala Patccmoi's suggestions in other threads, which are basically to shorten the duration but make the effects a little stronger, while keeping energy cost the same. Nothing in the game compares to hexes at all in terms of duration and disruptive effect. They're a wet blanket on GvG play. I'd be happy if they were nerfed out of existence.

InfernalSuffering · May 30, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

If you take out pvp we could all go back to pve since they are getting all the good updates anyways...

/endtroll

Obs mode by itself has encouraged gimmicks and without obs mode gimmicks would spread a lot slower and slow enough to be nerfed (hopefully). Not that obs mode is a bad thing, this was just one of its downsides.

Yue · May 31, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Obs mode also made it alot easier to get into GvG.

Neo-LD · May 31, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I agree that proactive splitting is dying in the American time zone, but of course there are exceptions. I suppose you could use Guildwars Nomads as an example, but anything that they accomplish is tainted by the fact that they use Recall. Yeah, yeah, I know, play to win and all that jazz, but again, this is more a problem with the game than with DAii. If GW were half the game it could have been, Recall wouldnt exist, and DAii would have to prove they can actually play, instead of relying on splittingfordummies101. Personally I think there are better options for examples of American guilds that were good at split. When MH and FFs had their shit together, they used the split first, ask questions later style. When we at Victrix had our shit together, we won a great deal of our games through our split.

And just to clarify something, Guarda, Victrix didnt really have its shit together until around early March, which was also the time that Tap and I joined. If you guys beat Victrix before then, congrats, but since then, much to my satisfaction, I know for a fact we went something like 5-0 or 6-0 against you guys. Nothing against you guys personally, but I kept close track of our record against the poster boys of the deservedly hated recall split.

Frantic-Sheep · Jun 01, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

For anyone interested, a guy named Sirlin wrote some nice articles and a book about "Play to Win". here is a link to his website, can browse some articles there that involves some nice views on playing games competitively. Might not, or might like it

One of his statements is there is no thing as lame trick (or in this case, lame builds).

Xioden · Jun 01, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frantic-Sheep

For anyone interested, a guy named Sirlin wrote some nice articles and a book about "Play to Win". here is a link to his website, can browse some articles there that involves some nice views on playing games competitively. Might not, or might like it

One of his statements is there is no thing as lame trick (or in this case, lame builds).

I agree, there is no such thing as lame tricks (or lame builds) as long as whatever in question is being proactively balanced, which GW is currently not. This does create the advent of "Lame" builds/tricks.

Bottom line is "C-space FTL". Builds that require nothing but mindless spamming of skills on recharge are just completely skill-less. HA fine, I'll throw them a bone there, its about killing on 3/4 of the map, and the other 1/4 you can still win by killing and then running relics while they're down (HoH is a bit of a different story). GvG however is supposed to be about strategy, not "spam spam spam". Ironically, the same gimmick builds people are complaining about turn GvG into exactly that. If you go head on against a paraway/ritspike in 8v8 at the flag stand your setting yourself up for defeat. neither however can counter a split very effectively. An Offensive/Defensive split with the defensive splits sole purpose being to hold against them for as long as possible can often yield an easy win against them. And that actually goes against my original point, which makes them a viable build in the long run as there is a counter available to beat them. The day any "Gimmick" build gets buffed to the point that you absolutely must cater your build to beat them in order to win (and in the process gimp yourself against mostly everything else) then, and only then, will you have a truly lame build.

Patrograd · Jun 02, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

If you go head on against a paraway/ritspike in 8v8 at the flag stand your setting yourself up for defeat. neither however can counter a split very effectively. An Offensive/Defensive split with the defensive splits sole purpose being to hold against them for as long as possible can often yield an easy win against them.
.

Play them on Jade or Burning and unless you play perfectly, *and* they play like retards, you will lose.

Even if you play them on a splittable map, you still have to make practically no errors, and they have room for many, many screw ups in order for you to win. if these builds are being run by players who understand at a deep level strategy and movement then basically you are screwed no matter what you do

Now while this is challenging, and often even quite compelling, its a long way from being balanced.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 02, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

those builds usually have bitch flaggers that can keep npcs for a very, very long time.

LifesRestorer · Jun 02, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

If you take out pvp we could all go back to pve since they are getting all the good updates anyways...

/endtroll

Obs mode by itself has encouraged gimmicks and without obs mode gimmicks would spread a lot slower and slow enough to be nerfed (hopefully). Not that obs mode is a bad thing, this was just one of its downsides.

heres an idea.

Obs mode for monthly tournaments, special events (exhibition games) and guild games only. we still get to enjoy the games from the best of the best without people being to steal builds as easily and farm with it.

chatiez-meow · Jun 02, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

from 5/1 win/loss guilds there were 2 guilds that ran mostly balanced and 3 full gimmick guilds. I would say thats better situation than last couple tournaments. I see new wave of balanced guilds training at eurotimes moving game focusing on flagrunning and on moving game (not straightly splitting but taking good movement). And theyre doing fine. Europe also got problem with too less guilds playing but if enough guild stays some minor skillfix come, there will be some interesting times in field of gvg.

What Selber said about europe getting favor for being divided I think got truth in it. Many countries got their own scene, like Finland scene is strong enough to produce 2-3 top 20ish guilds most of the time, germany is pretty much same but these two scenes dont compete from players. Also small scenes need to get new players from time to time and I would say its many times easier in Finland than in Texas to get in guild where player can develop his skills. If youre gvg interested player that is able to play team play, if youre from Finland you find yourself pretty fast being recruited to competitive guild, if youre Usa you find lots of talking how good some guilds are and how noob you are and you find out how "gw is dead" and conclusion is made for you before youve been playing single month in competitive guild where you actually would learn the game.

Kaon · Jun 02, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I would like to state that whatever mana (= chatiez-meow) says, I support him 100% fully on his opinion, simply because he has the sexiest voice here.

Xioden · Jun 02, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Play them on Jade or Burning and unless you play perfectly, *and* they play like retards, you will lose.

Even if you play them on a splittable map, you still have to make practically no errors, and they have room for many, many screw ups in order for you to win. if these builds are being run by players who understand at a deep level strategy and movement then basically you are screwed no matter what you do

Now while this is challenging, and often even quite compelling, its a long way from being balanced.

Thats just it though, they generally don't have the capacity to split well, so they're left with either killing the defensive team who's only supposed to be trying to slow them down, or move to the split team attacking their base. If they try to split evenly they just set themselves up to be taken down (or stalled even longer).

At least on jade against paraway if you can manage to hold on until VoD you can almost assure a victory. Again a 400+ team may play it completely different than the team in the mid 400's we faced and despite not actually doing much we did what we could to hold out to `.

Haven't fought any para/ritspike teams on burning so can't comment at all there, but at least against paraway it shouldn't be too terribly hard to use the little keep's walls for the backline to run around and keep prots up on the lord as needed, but again, haven't faced them so I can't say for sure.

Kaon · Jun 02, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

A good paraway actually doesn't have much of a problem with vod. It's damage is incredibly dangerous, and with dual shields up and craploads of armour archers don't really do anything. Burning Isle has so few NPC's that even if you'd be 100% succesfull, meaning you took down everything and you still have all your NPC's (even the outsides) that the paraway still has not much problems at all :/.

Xioden · Jun 02, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

A good paraway actually doesn't have much of a problem with vod. It's damage is incredibly dangerous, and with dual shields up and craploads of armour archers don't really do anything. Burning Isle has so few NPC's that even if you'd be 100% succesfull, meaning you took down everything and you still have all your NPC's (even the outsides) that the paraway still has not much problems at all :/.

It's not so much your NPC's, but about their guild lord.

chatiez-meow · Jun 03, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Paraway is only build Ive seen winning game turtling with zero npc and far below in dp after 25 min against good team. But salvation is only bad teams run paraway.