Curse

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 09, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

The ward issue is still passay(ie it's a form of passive defense) In current form wards come from hybrids(blind bots/mesmers). If monks decide to jump out of them, warriors are blind. Hardly anyone currently utililizes AOE to push people out of them. We've been playing a build recently with some AOE and what you will suffer from is a midline less able to shutdown other midline, it becomes pressure vs shutdown. It's on the same lvl as casting aegis at the right time+fall back to cast=active, and ward placement to an extent=active, after that it's all passive crapola. Wards=passive defense now quit your bitching. End rant.

Seamus Finn · Jun 09, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

As I see it, the wards as passive/active defense is really not even worth discussing, because wards are just not sufficient defense to run on their own anyhow(hello paragons and rangers!). Instead, wards are just that second layer behind the aegis that you have to shut down(often accompanied by a bsurge). The result is that the wards are being used in a passive manner and really very much as an afterthought(Unless the other team displays an ability to consistently shut down the aegis, the wards aren't really doing anything). So, the problem I have with wards is simply how they are used right now. Like I said, I would be shocked to see a team successfully run a melee ward as it's sole defense.

Div · Jun 09, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

hmm no. Let me explain again. All a person with wards does is find a reasonable spot, set and forget. Your tactic is really just taking advantage of the fact that wards recharge meets its duration even on low stats. Things like "lets get those wards closer for a more aggressive stance" is called by the strat caller not the warder. For one if you decide to but your wards further then your backline seems it is safe, then you will probably get your monk killed. As they are more exposed to well coordinated caster spikes that require little more position now since your monks are closer. Wards placement is more determined by the strat caller and the backline more then the blind bot with a 10 in earth. Even at that, wards still don't require any more intuative then an aegis chain. Its stills set, forget, if countered oh well.

Needing to be told where to put your wards instead of paying attention is an example of why you're a bad warder. That's exactly the mindset of a spiker, where they can't do anything outside of following exact strats from their caller. Plus, a warder isn't all about making wards. They do other stuff too, where they have to think for themselves. So yeah, stop arguing since everyone here knows that you have no idea what you're saying...

Apok Omen · Jun 09, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

hmm no. Let me explain again. All a person with wards does is find a reasonable spot, set and forget. Your tactic is really just taking advantage of the fact that wards recharge meets its duration even on low stats. Things like "lets get those wards closer for a more aggressive stance" is called by the strat caller not the warder. For one if you decide to but your wards further then your backline seems it is safe, then you will probably get your monk killed. As they are more exposed to well coordinated caster spikes that require little more position now since your monks are closer. Wards placement is more determined by the strat caller and the backline more then the blind bot with a 10 in earth. Even at that, wards still don't require any more intuative then an aegis chain. Its stills set, forget, if countered oh well.

So, according to you, the midline has to rely on the main strat caller to make their decisions for them?

I and hundreds others would have to disagree with you for the millionth time. When I play midline, I don't have to be told who to blind, who to diversion, who to snare, who to give a Weapon to, who to pressure, etc.

If you have to be told what to do, then your team is both wasting their time and thus losing the match. Good players rely on instinct, both in-game and IRL. Being told where to place your wards or w/e is the Strat guy saying that he/she is wasting their time while they could be focused on something else.

Okay, now if we could please move away from the "who's a good/bad player" and move on to what needs a nerf and why, that would be super.

wuzzman · Jun 09, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

So, according to you, the midline has to rely on the main strat caller to make their decisions for them?

I and hundreds others would have to disagree with you for the millionth time. When I play midline, I don't have to be told who to blind, who to diversion, who to snare, who to give a Weapon to, who to pressure, etc.

If you have to be told what to do, then your team is both wasting their time and thus losing the match. Good players rely on instinct, both in-game and IRL. Being told where to place your wards or w/e is the Strat guy saying that he/she is wasting their time while they could be focused on something else.

Okay, now if we could please move away from the "who's a good/bad player" and move on to what needs a nerf and why, that would be super.

Lol, the only reason why the strat caller would determine were the wards would go if he said something like "lets push up"(what idiot said I said the strat caller determines the whole midline...??? not reading ftw). Obviously your ward placement will have to be in a more "aggressive" postion. Being able to see doesn't make you a good player. Being able to "use a skill to its full extent" when its recharge matches its duration even on minimum stats, does not make you a good player. Even a r2k gvg once a month, pve mostly player can place a ward in a reasonable location to allow his midline and backline to run around in easily. In fact if all these are the case then "migraine mesmers(people hate those) Broad head arrow rangers(people really hate those) takes tons of skill.

Shmanka · Jun 11, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

I want Nature's Renewal and Signet of Humility nerfed, hard.

RhanoctJocosa · Jun 11, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I want Nature's Renewal and Signet of Humility nerfed, hard.

No, they are great skills.

yule · Jun 11, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

NR i can deal with, humilty needs to be pummelled tho.

lord of shadow · Jun 11, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

I'd like humility if it wasn't possible to just turn of someone's elite for the entire game. It should be there to help during a push, or take some pressure off your monks if then need it, not just end up being "your opponent has no elite of the rest of the game".

NR is great.

Burton2000 · Jun 11, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Sig of humility on its own is very balanced it lasts like 10-12 seconds with a 20 recharge and has an extremely interuptable 2 second cast. Mantra of inscriptions allowing you to maintain it 24/7 is the only thing that might be considered imbalanced but seriously if you cant interupt a 2 second cast. Even a gale could work.

Blame the Monks · Jun 11, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Sig of humility on its own is very balanced it lasts like 10-12 seconds with a 20 recharge and has an extremely interuptable 2 second cast. Mantra of inscriptions allowing you to maintain it 24/7 is the only thing that might be considered imbalanced but seriously if you cant interupt a 2 second cast. Even a gale could work.

Humility is fine, overall. Where it gets problematic is when the only way to feasibly keep up with hexes is through an elite (expel, divert) and hexes can run permanent humility. The buff to deny was an attempt to balance this.

But if hexes are balanced more reasonably, specifically the shutdown hexes, humility goes back to being a useful and balanced tool.

gasmaskman · Jun 11, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Sig of humility on its own is very balanced it lasts like 10-12 seconds with a 20 recharge and has an extremely interuptable 2 second cast. Mantra of inscriptions allowing you to maintain it 24/7 is the only thing that might be considered imbalanced but seriously if you cant interupt a 2 second cast. Even a gale could work.

Interrupts. You could also use diversion.

Seamus Finn · Jun 11, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Humility is fine, overall. Where it gets problematic is when the only way to feasibly keep up with hexes is through an elite (expel, divert) and hexes can run permanent humility. The buff to deny was an attempt to balance this.

But if hexes are balanced more reasonably, specifically the shutdown hexes, humility goes back to being a useful and balanced tool.

In hex builds humilty can get ugly, but I think the reason I have been hating this skill so much is due to the fact that monks carry very important utilities in their elites these days. Consequently, Humulity can be the easy button for team wipes.

I can't say that the skill is really imbalanced as much as it is taking advantage of common build choices these days though.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 11, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Sig of humility on its own is very balanced it lasts like 10-12 seconds with a 20 recharge and has an extremely interuptable 2 second cast. Mantra of inscriptions allowing you to maintain it 24/7 is the only thing that might be considered imbalanced but seriously if you cant interupt a 2 second cast. Even a gale could work.

On it's own it's still imba. It's a signet, which costs no energy, is already tied to a widely used attribute, anything that can shut especially an elite down for more than 50% of the skills recharge=broken. How you gonna interupt that shit? Leech sig is the only viable interupt for it, second after that is using a ranger in your build and hope you connect through all the hexes/aegis/SOD/blind/blurred, good day.

Blame the Monks · Jun 11, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I can't say that the skill is really imbalanced as much as it is taking advantage of common build choices these days though.

Bingo.

Humility can be defended against using standard tools (interrupts, diversion) and can be compensated for defensively (draw on your ele, dismiss on your RC so even if your RC is gone you can limp). Humility needs to be used reasonably skillfully to be relevant (humiliating MOR or a form does nothing, randomly humiliating a bsurge does little, but using it on the right monk at the right time is a very strong play. It rewards smart play, isn't inordinately powerful at any time, is generally useful and not unreasonably narrow, its a nice counter to elite NF gimmicks, it allows shutdown teams to win even against powerful elite counters...

Its a good, balanced, skill based tool. And that's the difference between a strong, general, but balanced skill and an imbalanced or gimmicky skill. IMO, this is the type of skill we need more of, not less of.

Ensign · Jun 11, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Humility has grown in power as the game has become increasingly elite-focused with each additional chapter. Back in Prophecies, Humility didn't do a whole lot as the most popular elites weren't really spammy nor essential, so you'd often be tacking a few meaningless seconds onto an already recharging skill - ala Edrain, Ether Prodigy, or Esurge. It was useful for blacking out a Warrior's (adrenal) elite to reset the adrenaline, and while it could shut down Crippling Shot that didn't exactly shut down the character (since Savage + Distract is really the core of that template).

Now things are really different, your a lot of ele bars rely on a spammable elite for effectiveness (Searing Flames, Mind Blast, Blinding Surge), and Monks now rely on defensive elites to deal with some of the crazy offenses out there (Restore Condition, Light of Deliverance, Divert Hexes, Expel Hexes (off-Monk). Signet of Humility destroys those characters something fierce. So in a build that exploits those aspects, Humility can be a point and shoot answer to their solution.

I still think it's more of a symptom than a problem, but it's really good now. It makes me worry a bit about the faster activation of signets from Fast Casting that's rumored, as Humility does not need that buff.

Nature's Renewal has been way too good for a long time. It's as good as Quickening Zephyr, without the crazy cost or short uptime of the latter

Div · Jun 13, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Looks like this fastest growing thread on guru didn't even warrant a read by anet. Their attempt at skill balance is pretty much a 2/10, with those two points given to cripshot, soul reaping, and recall. If only izzy or anyone from anet knew what they were doing, they'd just take from this list and put a similar version into the new update. You should really apply for the skill balance job Ensign...then maybe you'd be able to salvage at least part of the mess they made.

Dzan · Jun 13, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

A-net doesn't have the budget to afford Ensign.

TimeToGetIntense · Jun 13, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

They should probably make Humility have a 3 second cast so that Mesmers end up casting it at ~2 seconds and everyone else just sucks with it.

Patccmoi · Jun 13, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeToGetIntense

They should probably make Humility have a 3 second cast so that Mesmers end up casting it at ~2 seconds and everyone else just sucks with it.

I agree with that. Would at least prevent an easy use on N/Me, and out of Humility the fast cast signet change is positive overall.