Curse

pah01 · Jun 08, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

nerf aegis and wards and then we can talk about "active" defenses ^_^.

Actually Wards are an example of much more active defence than aegis.

Not only does the user have to place it in the right place but the whole team has to use them correctly.

The only passive use of wards is in HA when teams "ward camp" and then die to searing flames.

Joe

TheOneMephisto · Jun 08, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

LOL, that made no sense.

The point being argued is that Dazed doesn't matter...people would bring draw anyway. Which IS certainly the case. You saw draw everywhere before Broad Head Arrow became frequent.

~Z

As others have said, if the enemy team isn't smart enough to put quite a bit of effort into shutting down your draw as they apply daze, then you don't have anything to worry about either way.

Zuranthium · Jun 08, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

The only way to shut it down is Diversion. It's not going to be interrupted unless you are very lucky. Hopefully your own team realizes what's going on when the enemy BHA ranger is pushed into your backline and their Mesmer is casting Diversion.

The proposed change to decrease the duration of the dazed on BHA doesn't change much at all in large team fights, really. If you've successfully applied the Daze and shutdown the means to remove it, that Monk should be dropping within 10 seconds anyway. All the change would do is weaken it in a split situation...which totally kills a BHA Ranger in comparison to other options.

I really don't see the problem with BHA. Not many people are even running it. It's High Risk/High Reward...you absolutely can not forget about how SLOW it activates and how EASY it is to dodge.

~Z

Paul McKenna · Jun 08, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadowstepping should empty the adrenaline pool (and disable non-Assassin attack skills for 2 seconds)

Just wanted to highlight this as my favourite idea of the lot. Shadow stepping warriors and dervishes take some important player-skills (effective pre-kiting and pre-protting) totally out of the game, which is just wrong.

wuzzman · Jun 08, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Actually Wards are an example of much more active defence than aegis.

Not only does the user have to place it in the right place but the whole team has to use them correctly.

The only passive use of wards is in HA when teams "ward camp" and then die to searing flames.

Joe

Aoe...at least the effective kind will most likely be removed shortly. Wards don't take even 3,2,1 spike ability to place and with the probably upcoming nerfs to the good aoe skills I don't see any skill being involved in the future.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 08, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Aoe...at least the effective kind will most likely be removed shortly. Wards don't take even 3,2,1 spike ability to place and with the probably upcoming nerfs to the good aoe skills I don't see any skill being involved in the future.

Wards actually do take some ability to use, as you can use them for a lot of interesting things. You can often use wards to allow your midline to push straight up into the enemy for pushing forward, or use them to fall back. Since they actually do reward skill (assuming that you aren't loading up with multiple copies), I wouldn't like to see them nerfed.

wuzzman · Jun 08, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Wards actually do take some ability to use, as you can use them for a lot of interesting things. You can often use wards to allow your midline to push straight up into the enemy for pushing forward, or use them to fall back. Since they actually do reward skill (assuming that you aren't loading up with multiple copies), I wouldn't like to see them nerfed.

In the old days. With both teams using wards, it reminded me alot of trench warfare. Ward against foe on the flag stand and a ward against melee and stability just sitting just behind the ward against foe. I played a warder, thee most boring job in the world. Combine that with the infinite aegis chain.

Patccmoi · Jun 08, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

In the old days. With both teams using wards, it reminded me alot of trench warfare. Ward against foe on the flag stand and a ward against melee and stability just sitting just behind the ward against foe. I played a warder, thee most boring job in the world. Combine that with the infinite aegis chain.

Wards are actually very strategic and bad teams tend to make bad use of them.

And, hrm, 'i played a warder'? Out of spike builds using OFlame, i don't think 'Warders' were nearly ever used in GvG, at least not since a loooong time. It's more like give a 9-10 earth spec ward on an ele or another /E.

Wards aren't party wide defense, it's area defense. It's very different, especially since various things are there to force people out of wards, or you can spike people that are out of wards. And wards can't be used out of range so an interrupt on them is much more manageable than against Aegis. You can't even go hide behind a wall to Ward unless you want it there. The only teams that can afford to sit in wards is full caster spikes, in which case you had to split. Those are kinda gone anyway.

And that part about AOE being nerfed seems really pulled out of nowhere to try to make an argument. I didn't see any1 suggesting to nerf AOE spells (out of Searing Flames, and it's not even the most common in PvP anymore out of some gimmick spike in HA, it's Savannah Heat/Searing Heat/Teinai's Heat combo), and no clue from ANet that they intended to. Hell, i'm not even sure Searing Flames will take a hit even though it should because of the PvE crowd.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 08, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

In the old days. With both teams using wards, it reminded me alot of trench warfare. Ward against foe on the flag stand and a ward against melee and stability just sitting just behind the ward against foe. I played a warder, thee most boring job in the world. Combine that with the infinite aegis chain.

As Pat said, we're talking about very different things. I'm talking about an air or water prodigy ele with a 9-10 spec ward against melee, which he could only use to defend one area. When using something like this, you had to strategically place it to protect your mid/backline. If you set it too far back, the enemy could push you back, if you set it too far forward, you wouldn't be able to use it or you would risk breaking. You could use these things for all kinds of plays, like pushing up with some degree of safety straight into the enemy midline to get a flagger or w/e. You're talking about dedicated warders, where they just spam wards everywhere and make these giant defensive structures.

wuzzman · Jun 08, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

As Pat said, we're talking about very different things. I'm talking about an air or water prodigy ele with a 9-10 spec ward against melee, which he could only use to defend one area. When using something like this, you had to strategically place it to protect your mid/backline. If you set it too far back, the enemy could push you back, if you set it too far forward, you wouldn't be able to use it or you would risk breaking. You could use these things for all kinds of plays, like pushing up with some degree of safety straight into the enemy midline to get a flagger or w/e. You're talking about dedicated warders, where they just spam wards everywhere and make these giant defensive structures.

again, I play both the old school warder and the warder with searing flames as his elite(I know noobie). It doesn't take a genius to locate your backline and set your wards in the reasonable place. Its even easier to use with blinding surge, since your watching their melee targets anyway...

Blame the Monks · Jun 08, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

again, I play both the old school warder and the warder with searing flames as his elite(I know noobie). It doesn't take a genius to locate your backline and set your wards in the reasonable place. Its even easier to use with blinding surge, since your watching their melee targets anyway...

Do yourself a favor and stop talking -- you just destroyed your credibility.

Patccmoi · Jun 08, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

again, I play both the old school warder and the warder with searing flames as his elite(I know noobie). It doesn't take a genius to locate your backline and set your wards in the reasonable place. Its even easier to use with blinding surge, since your watching their melee targets anyway...

If you put your ward on your backline, then you just don't take advantage at all of what you can do with them. To me, wards were always one of the best defense to put in an aggressive build because you actually put it in front of your backline so that they can push closer and your midline/frontline can push even further in. But if you do it too far, it's too risky and you might screw up. If you keep your wards on your backline in the back, you're not doing much.

Seriously there's tons of tactics about where you use wards, when you use wards, how you use your wards and how you push teams out of wards. Wards are pretty deep tactically in anything but a caster spike. Good use of wards vs bad use of wards makes a world of difference. And if you know that, then just drop the point you're trying to make comparing it to Aegis and saying meaningless stuff like 'playing a warder is the most boring thing ever' when no one in a balanced setup actually wanted a 'warder'. The fact that wards aren't a twitchy skill doesn't make them 'lame passive defense' at all.

wuzzman · Jun 08, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

If you put your ward on your backline, then you just don't take advantage at all of what you can do with them. To me, wards were always one of the best defense to put in an aggressive build because you actually put it in front of your backline so that they can push closer and your midline/frontline can push even further in. But if you do it too far, it's too risky and you might screw up. If you keep your wards on your backline in the back, you're not doing much.

Seriously there's tons of tactics about where you use wards, when you use wards, how you use your wards and how you push teams out of wards. Wards are pretty deep tactically in anything but a caster spike. Good use of wards vs bad use of wards makes a world of difference. And if you know that, then just drop the point you're trying to make comparing it to Aegis and saying meaningless stuff like 'playing a warder is the most boring thing ever' when no one in a balanced setup actually wanted a 'warder'. The fact that wards aren't a twitchy skill doesn't make them 'lame passive defense' at all.

hmm no. Let me explain again. All a person with wards does is find a reasonable spot, set and forget. Your tactic is really just taking advantage of the fact that wards recharge meets its duration even on low stats. Things like "lets get those wards closer for a more aggressive stance" is called by the strat caller not the warder. For one if you decide to but your wards further then your backline seems it is safe, then you will probably get your monk killed. As they are more exposed to well coordinated caster spikes that require little more position now since your monks are closer. Wards placement is more determined by the strat caller and the backline more then the blind bot with a 10 in earth. Even at that, wards still don't require any more intuative then an aegis chain. Its stills set, forget, if countered oh well.

BlackEagle · Jun 08, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Please don't compare the amount of skill needed to use aegis chains to using wards. The most complex thought process of aegis use (ie. you actually have to have half a clue what's going on on the battlefield) is using it to avoid physical damage on offensive pushes. Other than that, you basically use aegis if it is recharged if there is no aegis up. Wards on the other hand, take a lot more skill to use by both the user and the team around it. If you're just dumping ward melee in roughly the vicinity of your monks whenever it's recharged, I think it's fair to say you're not doing a very good job. Also, I can't see how you can say the position of the wards should be up to the strat caller, wtb individual thought. I mean, if your strat caller is saying to push or something, I would've thought that it then wouldn't need to be spelled out to the warder what to do with the wards.

Aegis is basically a skill which will see the same amount of benefit from being used by a bad player and a good player, and if you think wards are like that then you are basically wrong.

Age · Jun 08, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

nerf aegis and wards and then we can talk about "active" defenses ^_^.

Why nerf Aegis as there is nothing wrong with it as this skill is relativly new to PvP as most were used to the BoonProtect.The Monks in PvP are spamming it.That is not how you use it and besides that it is no good for spike damage.This skill does not need a change.It only protects for 10 sec at 13 in protect and has rechage of 30 sec you call that over powered I don't think so.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 09, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

hmm no. Let me explain again. All a person with wards does is find a reasonable spot, set and forget. Your tactic is really just taking advantage of the fact that wards recharge meets its duration even on low stats. Things like "lets get those wards closer for a more aggressive stance" is called by the strat caller not the warder. For one if you decide to but your wards further then your backline seems it is safe, then you will probably get your monk killed. As they are more exposed to well coordinated caster spikes that require little more position now since your monks are closer. Wards placement is more determined by the strat caller and the backline more then the blind bot with a 10 in earth. Even at that, wards still don't require any more intuative then an aegis chain. Its stills set, forget, if countered oh well.

You're helping to prove my point. You're giving us the viewpoint of a bad player who isn't using wards to their full advantage, while everyone else it giving the viewpoint of good players, who know everything that they can do with them.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Why nerf Aegis as there is nothing wrong with it as this skill is relativly new to PvP as most were used to the BoonProtect.The Monks in PvP are spamming it.That is not how you use it and besides that it is no good for spike damage.This skill does not need a change.It only protects for 10 sec at 13 in protect and has rechage of 30 sec you call that over powered I don't think so.

There is something wrong with Aegis. It isn't the fact that monks can use it, it's the fact that a) runners can use it at almost no risk, and b) eles can chain it at a medium spec for almost no cost. I'm fine with having it viable on monks in combo with GoLE because that takes up valuable skill slots and time, but when eles start to chain it at almost no cost to destroy melee pressure... something's wrong.

And wards are most definitely not set and forget. To take full advantage of wards takes some effort. Unless you're the kind of retard that has his entire team sit in a ward waiting to blow up to AoE. Kiting warriors through and around wards does take skill to do effectively, and does get more effective as skill goes up. Almost anything that gets more effective as skill goes up is good for the game.

Age · Jun 09, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneMephisto
There is something wrong with Aegis. It isn't the fact that monks can use it, it's the fact that a) runners can use it at almost no risk, and b) eles can chain it at a medium spec for almost no cost. I'm fine with having it viable on monks in combo with GoLE because that takes up valuable skill slots and time, but when eles start to chain it at almost no cost to destroy melee pressure... something's wrong.

There is nothing wrong with it as I use it on my standard Mo/W bar and no GoLE.Then fix the Ele not the skill it is perfectly fine as I have used it for over 2 years now not to bring PvE into this but has saved several wipes.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 09, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

There is nothing wrong with it as I use it on my standard Mo/W bar and no GoLE.Then fix the Ele not the skill it is perfectly fine as I have used it for over 2 years now not to bring PvE into this but has saved several wipes.

That would be why some of the most supported changes to Aegis in this thread support changing it for the block change to scale, something like 20%-45%. This would leave it the same for prot monks (close to 50% at around 14 prot), but would hurt it for eles running it at a medium spec.

Maybe you should try and read the topic before you post? Remember:
Read. Think. Only then post.

Age · Jun 09, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

That would be why some of the most supported changes to Aegis in this thread support changing it for the block change to scale, something like 20%-45%. This would leave it the same for prot monks (close to 50% at around 14 prot), but would hurt it for eles running it at a medium spec.

Maybe you should try and read the topic before you post? Remember:
Read. Think. Only then post.

I read the topic as i have been following this.I only have 13 in protect that does give me enough to keep a wipe at 9 sec. instead of 10.The only way to prevent Ele from chaining as you say it to have it tied in with Devine Favour to get a bonus out of it.

Patccmoi · Jun 09, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I read the topic as i have been following this.I only have 13 in protect that does give me enough to keep a wipe at 9 sec. instead of 10.The only way to prevent Ele from chaining as you say it to have it tied in with Devine Favour to get a bonus out of it.

... or, as HE said, make the block scaling? So that they can chain it but will only have a 38% block at 9 prot instead of 50%. Not a huge difference, you can't really pressure through 38% more than 50%, but it'd help balancing it a bit.