Curse

Skye Marin · Jun 06, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I didn't want to comment on this as there really isn't any need, but as a supporter of the ritualist, all I'm gonna' say is "Won't someone think of the children!"

Seriously though the class needs help. There 'is' potential there for quality but it requires attention from those with adequate experience. Read anything by Patccmoi about them. That is real consideration. Not ridiculous nonsense like 'delete them from the game/nerf them into the ground' etc...

Well, what if we take all those rit skills that depend on a spirit, and change to so that they depend on a spirit under your direct control. It would prevent the "more is better" stacking ability of multiple rits on a team, and would be a solid first step in balancing them.

frojack · Jun 07, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Well, what if we take all those rit skills that depend on a spirit, and change to so that they depend on a spirit under your direct control. It would prevent the "more is better" stacking ability of multiple rits on a team, and would be a solid first step in balancing them.

It's an interesting idea, but this example would actually make things far worse for the class. Spirit dependency is one of the major weaknesses of a lot of skills. All of the popular non-spirit skills (Weapon of Warding, Weapon of Remedy, Mend Body, Splinter, etc.) don't 'need' a spirit to be around, and some merely improve with presence of one.
The only benefit of tying spirits to their owners I can see is to weaken the excessive Rit-spike, (and I guess the necro e-factory) that's currently causing so much aggro. It's a valid problem, but I really don't know what to do about it. Just throwing it in the bin is a bit silly (ie. nerf it into the ground) and while seemingly 'win win', reducing individual spell damage while decreasing recharge to promote pressure has it's issues.
E-management is ever present. While lowering the recharge of say Essence Strike would boost the energy gain on that 'dependent' skill, the virtual loss on natural regen you'd incur could become problematic. Less obvious is the need to continually cast spells to maintain your actual damage average.
Still it's certainly worth investigating. It's instantly better than the current spike predicament (Incidentally I can't see the problem with Spirit Rift. You have a full 3 seconds to move. No decent spell requires this long to cast. It's not hard).
Perhaps to give the damage average a boost, dropping a few of the cast times to say 3/4 instead of 1 second might be a decent option. That, coupled with reduced damage and recharge would be an interesting experiment. No caster in competitive play can just freely sit still and continually cast. Having to increase your casting to break even is a huge blow. It would need a lot of testing to balance. Perhaps even a complete damage type re-think.

Regardless, air-clone channeling skills are far less interesting than some of the other things the class can do...
Coming back to the re-working of spirits, I've often theorised of how to turn the almost defunct/issue-ridden spirits in communing (Shelter, Union, Soothing, Displacement etc.) from passive, drop and forget nonsense that is seemingly either broken or useless into something that could be used tactically. To do this you'd need to remove the passive element which could be facilitated by making certain spirits target-able...
Take Shelter for instance; This thing needs to be strong enough to support your allies, not too strong to be ridiculously broken, and then useful enough to make up for it's relative vulnerability. Almost impossible in it's current form...

By making it target-able you force it to serve one ally and one ally only for a period. Sort of like a decoy object for the excess damage that ally would take.
This 'voodoo' doll is a physical manifestation and can thus be beaten to death (almost like beating on the prot spirit wrapped around a pressure target) but without the need to pack extra shit on your bars like enchantment removal. There are obvious balance implications...

Firstly, maps can not be cluttered without hurting the game so the '1 spirit type per team' limitation could remain. However to make up for this weakness (and to provide real incentive to not just using prot spirit in the first place) it could be made 'stronger' than Prot spirit in some measure (something easily factored like up to +4 regen and like Weapon of Warding and/or +al for example).

Naturally cost, creation time, duration, and recharge would need to alter significantly to make this worth it. Something like 10 energy, 3/4-1 second creation, 20 second duration, and an 8 second recharge. Something to actually make it Diversion worthy. Also the hoops one would need to jump through to escape D shot etc.
After that numbers can be balance adjusted and whatever else but the fundamental mechanic would be there.

Not sure if this would be over-powered or just too weak. Natural balance conditions are build in...

-Only one per team (so only 1 person prot-ted by this method unlike prot spirit)
-Easily destroyed (unless the Rit in question is Drawing it all over the place)

At the same time...

-it's unstrip-able if the opposition just keep pounding the target (spirit hp would need a look at or even an overhaul).
-Smart enemies will switch targets or divert offense to dealing with the interloper (thus relieving pressure).
-quick recharging spirits are good for spirit req. Rit skills (but bad for necro exploiters. the non-spirit SP gain would need to be implemented for this to ever get off the ground).

Again, I don't know. The ideal is naturally applicable to a few other problem spirits (notably Displacement). Looks far more interesting on paper, though I probably can't see all the angles so you decide. It would certainly make Spawning Power less shit...

Note: This may actually be better in it's own thread. Would hate to derail things...

Riotgear · Jun 07, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

What if SYG and/or WY were just changed to only be armor against physical?

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 07, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

What if SYG and/or WY were just changed to only be armor against physical?

Then the skills would no longer be useful outside of PvE. Elemental weapons are fun.

Of course, the skill concept for WY ("Your whole flagstand team gains a bunch of uncounterable AL forever!") might be so bad that nerfing it into oblivion is the best approach.

Riotgear · Jun 07, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Then the skills would no longer be useful outside of PvE. Elemental weapons are fun.

Yes, I know, that's the idea. The reason I'm suggesting it is that it'll make Paragonway significantly less idiotic while not providing any real reason for PvEers to complain (PvE elemental damage = Protective Spirit fodder).

Div · Jun 07, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Come on just why not get rid of the entire Assassin class. Nerf all of the Assassin stuff to 1-5 dmg (sarcasm) ... I'm tired of seeing all of the Assassin hate if you them so much learn to play them and beat them and read your skills so you know how they work.

In all honesty the skills you listed are fine as they are now and Soul Reaping is just fine the way it is now. Not enough energy? Take out that 15 energy hex for a energy management skill.

And buff the Paragon why dont you...

Warrior 6A for "Fear Me!" wow GG..

Ranger just kill Broad Head why don't you.

Dervish ok I guess.

/endrant

Go back to PvE and RA please.

First of all, the SP sin combo accounts for probably 75%+ of the sin builds. That's a big problem that needs to be addressed if it's one of the only viable builds for a sin.

Your SR argument makes no sense, as we're trying to make SR less effective. Your attempt at sarcasm there was an epic failure.

Have you even seen paragons in GvG or HA? If you did, you probably wouldn't be making that comment.

Don't like the Fear Me nerf because it's the only build you can play in RA? Well, I'm sorry but it's time to learn how to play different builds.

BHA isn't just a game-turning skill in GvG's. It is also insanely powerful when used in PvE on bosses, so I don't see how you can't understand that if you're a PvE'r.

Your rant has no valuable arguments, as I've pointed out all the flaws. Have a nice day

linh · Jun 07, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

They just need to make a short, emergency update to remove Recall and I'm temporarily happy -_-

Falconer · Jun 07, 2007, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

BHA isn't just a game-turning skill in GvG's. It is also insanely powerful when used in PvE on bosses, so I don't see how you can't understand that if you're a PvE'r.

Hold up a moment here... Good for the goose, good for the gander. Goose being physicals, ganders being spellslingers. If dazed is the physicals answer to 90% shutdown casters, then blind is the casters answer to 90% shutdown dazed.

Lets look at another elite skill which also makes/breaks GvG/HA combats and also can make PvE trivially easy.

Blinding Surge: Lets you pretty much permablind one target, and can even keep two blind while doing +attack damage at the same time. Even the energy costs are roughly the same 6-7 energy after lots of expertise on a 3 pip character is the same time-energy cost as a 10 energy bsurge on a 4 pip character even before adding in an attunement(s).

Blind pretty much completely shuts down any physical character from doing damage. By extension... are you saying that permablinding a physical PvE boss doesn't make the combat laughably easy as well?

BHA does the same thing. Only dazed is aimed purely at spellcasters... physicals couldn't care less about dazed, and casters couldn't care less about blind. Unlike Bsurge, BHA can only realistically daze a single target right now w/ it's 15s recharge and duration. But in PvP play, BHA is still far more limited than bsurge... bsurge can make condition removal a nightmare in itself. BHA in PvP is only usable if used to go after the condition remover, or in the absence of removal on a split.

Ensigns principal argument is that it can be turned against the predominant condition removal skills in the game. But I don't fully go for that position. Condition removal is remarkably strong in game. The advent of paragons gave viable non-spell condition removals. If you want the spell, restore conditions... because it is also a massive heal... then it comes w/ attendant risks as a spell. There are other options such as placing the condition removal on a non-monk primary as well. There are other skills in game, which nullify interupts for a cost.

BHA is still a much harder skill to use than blinding surge as well. One, bsurge can't be blocked. And Bsurge does not have a lightning orb arc only marginally better than BHA's arc. Even condition removal has a hard time keeping up w/ bsurge spam, and it's really the only way to defend against it (short of Avatar of melandru... which is a problem in itself). Nothing is stopping a monk from using a defensive stance, or non-spell skills. And a bow attacks so slowly it's not that hard to slip .25s casts even while dazed, unless you're being focused by multiple players.

Riotgear · Jun 07, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Falconer, I'm pretty sure no one has ever caused a full-team wipe with Blinding Surge.

rii · Jun 07, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Shadow Prison: 2...6d

I'm not sure about this. I think that combined with the duration nerf and the energy nerf from BLS you're removing the SP build from the game. In all honesty, I don't mind, but there might be better ways.

Not sure if this has already been suggested (long thread) but what if SP was a condition snare instead of hex? Simply change hex snare -> cripple.

This would solve several of the current SP problems.

Firstly, the basic problem of the snare itself. As a hex SP is much harder to deal with than say, cripshot, since condition removal is just a lot more ripped. RC/mend touch is common in the game atm (for more reasons than SP sins) so changing to a condition snare would bring it in line w/ other snares such as cripslash, cripshot/apply, etc.

Second, it stops the synergy with expose defenses. ATM, a solo monk doesn't have much in the way of dealing with both SP and expose. Even with hex breaker it can be troublesome. This nerf means single hex removals can disrupt the combo (Even though some people think HB is lowskill, I'm thinking about reverse hex etc). SP should be easy to stop - that compensates for it being so brainless to play, also taking into account its comparative power.

Also, being a condition and therefore easier to deal with, it might even be viable to buff the skill somewhat. At the moment the skill has been so bad that it's ended up being nerfed and nerfed to the point where the duration is so short the only thing you *can* do is spike.

As a condition you could reasonably increase the snare duration and maybe drop the recharge. The energy needs to stay at 10 though, to ward off warriors picking the skill up again. With longer snare duration the skill would be better in splits as a snare and might see some of the 'tactical' use that it's apparantly capable of.

Perhaps Shadow Prison [e]: 10/1/15: Spell. Shadow Step to target foes location. That foe is crippled for 2...5...9 seconds.

15s might be a little steep, but 20s seems too long. Ideally I'd change it somewhere inbetween... but GW doesn't go for that.

Combined with the BLS nerf (I'd rather see it dropped to 12 energy gain - I see no reason why sins can recharge their bar - I'd rather it be a 'free filler skill') this makes the current SP build weaker, but doesn't kill SP as a concept.

You can still run SP as it is, but need stronger hexes to run the black chain on the target. If you just run expose, you're opening yourself to single hex removals, and adding other hexes such as siphon speed (which also needs a nerf) heavily distorts your bar (and SP as a snare is still manageable anyway).

Div · Jun 07, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Blind pretty much completely shuts down any physical character from doing damage. By extension... are you saying that permablinding a physical PvE boss doesn't make the combat laughably easy as well?

Sure it'll make it easy, but who really worries too much about physical bosses in PvE. It generally doesn't all of a sudden hit your entire midline for 400 AoE damage...everyone know the deadliest bosses are the ones who have insane spell casting AoE damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Falconer, I'm pretty sure no one has ever caused a full-team wipe with Blinding Surge.

QFT. I don't see how you can even compare daze with blind, as daze can make the conditional removal and backbone of the team completely ineffective. Blind merely suppresses the damage the team is able to deal before it gets removed by the backline.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 07, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Daze is also much harder to remove than blind, considering that single condition removals are useless due to apply poison...

Burton2000 · Jun 07, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Draw conditions=gg to BHA? Ifyou dont have a draw how are you keeping your wars clean all the time?

lord of shadow · Jun 07, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

if your team cant shut down draw conditions for a few seconds then it is probably too shit for daze to make a difference.

Riotgear · Jun 07, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Sure it'll make it easy, but who really worries too much about physical bosses in PvE. It generally doesn't all of a sudden hit your entire midline for 400 AoE damage...everyone know the deadliest bosses are the ones who have insane spell casting AoE damage.

Daze is a crutch regardless. Beating an elemental boss is mostly about just spreading out and having PS on as many people as possible to nerf 80% of their damage.

Shmanka · Jun 07, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Draw conditions=gg to BHA? Ifyou dont have a draw how are you keeping your wars clean all the time?

And wouldn't it be beautiful to not be required to bring a secondary draw if dazed was a little less powerful?

WTB Guildwars WTS Buildwars

Zuranthium · Jun 07, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

LOL, that made no sense.

The point being argued is that Dazed doesn't matter...people would bring draw anyway. Which IS certainly the case. You saw draw everywhere before Broad Head Arrow became frequent.

~Z

wuzzman · Jun 07, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

nerf aegis and wards and then we can talk about "active" defenses ^_^.

Seamus Finn · Jun 08, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

BHA is still a much harder skill to use than blinding surge as well. One, bsurge can't be blocked. And Bsurge does not have a lightning orb arc only marginally better than BHA's arc. Even condition removal has a hard time keeping up w/ bsurge spam, and it's really the only way to defend against it (short of Avatar of melandru... which is a problem in itself). Nothing is stopping a monk from using a defensive stance, or non-spell skills. And a bow attacks so slowly it's not that hard to slip .25s casts even while dazed, unless you're being focused by multiple players.

Sorry, but this paragraph is basically completely wrong. Blinding Surge requires far more skill to utilize correctly than broadhead(Obviously Surge is easier to HIT with, but making the condition worthwhile is a constant struggle of every second of every match). Since passive defensive skills are so common in most builds, bsurge is usually just another layer of defense on a weaker player in the team, but a good bsurger can really be the sole defense of a team against melee, and still provide noteworthy pressure(assuming you have taken the extra slots and put them to good use). Of course, if you think that spamming blind on wars until your surge gets diverted is using it correctly...

To be more on topic, I realize that Aria of Resto is pretty ugly in the paraways, but do you think the skill even approaches imbalanced in a more balanced build? The more I think about it, I would not be happy losing that skill on account of paraway.

Barbie goes guru · Jun 08, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Draw conditions=gg to BHA? Ifyou dont have a draw how are you keeping your wars clean all the time?

Rune of clarity, 'I can see clearly now' inscription. A decent ranger who can use d-shot. Spirit of recovery.