Curse

Byron · Jun 05, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

S'pose I'll comment on the skill debates that are interesting.

Necro hexes, in general, need and have needed to be rethought. The central problem seems to be that hex removal is underpowered, and is pretty well restricted to monk or half-monk character slots. Nightfall brought new necro hexes and no practical rock beats scissors counter to them. The meta responds with hex pressure. Signet of removal was interesting for a while, but it's elite status and lack of a red-bars heal don't make it all that great. Yeah.

Aegis seems fine. It's really a fair weather skill, anyway. Casting aegis under pressure is a gamble, and requires a skill slot for energy management. Though I wouldn't be unhappy with a second or two reduced duration.

BHA might be problematic in TA, but in gvg I see no big problem. It's elite and had the capability of adding a big aspect of pressure to a team when used properly. It's not a no-brainer, so I don't hate it.

Go for the eyes needs increased adren, as Ensign originally posted. Paras with 15e spells on top of their attack skills shouldn't be allowed.

red orc · Jun 05, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

If you the necro hexes / aegis / water hexes give you so much trouble then you only need one spell to shut them down: Power Block. But I dont see you run a power block mes. I then conclude that they do not bother you enough, end of story.
If Anet will still nerf those skills, they should add a single mes elite hex spell as well:

Melee Block- for 2..5 seconds If target foe is using a melee Attack, that Attack is blocked and this hex ends. The blocked Attack and all Attack of the same attribute are disabled for 3...13 seconds for that foe.

you cannot argue that this spell is passive, just need to specify the casting time which needs to enabe a good attacker to stop before he's trapped in this.

DutchSmurf · Jun 05, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Just messing with the duration isn't enough, it's irredeemable and in need of a fundamental change. How about instead of a snare, it prevents the target from attacking for its duration? You decide on what that duration should be, I don't really have a good feel for it. Keep the 2..6 maybe. The skill becomes a combination of offence and defence, allowing offensive moves against foes with physical interrupts (although they can now kite successfully), and defensive moves against physicals making a push on a midliner or monk.

If you change Shadow Prison to 2..6 seconds of not attacking, nobody is going to bother using it. If you want a target not to attack for 2-3 seconds, use Gale or Shock. Or Blinding Flash/Surge, does the job too.
However, I don't think Shadow Prison is a problem at all. The main problem is Expose Defenses. And the combination is even worse. You can't run away and you can't block. That often results in you dying unless you get healed. The snare only means that if you can't block/heal, you are still dead. But then it was your own fault for being there in the first place.
I only don't know how to nerf Expose in a good way.

Turbobusa · Jun 05, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

^^wail of doom

Necros need to be nerfed really.
[skill]faintheartedness[/skill]
37 seconds?
1 second cast??
8 recharge????

I would love this skill even with half the current duration
But it's turning into a pvp discution (sorry)... I can't see the problem of the reduction of hexes duration in pve. its still VERY effective in shutting down most mobs for an entire fight.

By the way, why the change on aegis? I know its for pvp, and most monks run high protective prayers there... so it wouldn't affect them much!

Riotgear · Jun 05, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

It would be too slow to get off diversions, shames and freezing gusts.

Hexbreaker Aria can't do anything about Diversion or Shame anyway. :P

However, I would argue its effectiveness against balanced seeing as many balanced teams are packing an N/E now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

If hexbreaker Aria is so good, I have to ask: why don't more teams use it in the current hex heavy meta?

Who ever said Hexbreaker Aria was good now? I just said that it's going to be pretty easy to overpower it if it's changed to all skills.

As for Shadow Prison (again), I really think one of the best ways to tackle it would be to just reduce the snare. That has roughly the same effect as a duration reduction in terms of being able to throw an entire combo in its duration, provided the target is smart enough to kite, makes execution more vulnerable to speed reductions like cripple/gust/WAF, and makes using Flail to power it in particular much less viable.

And yes, I know Dark Prison has a smaller snare and doesn't get used, but the reason everyone loves Shadow Prison has more to do with the recharge than the intensity of the snare.

As for Expose: For blah seconds, if target foe has no other hexes, that foe can not "block" your attacks. It's not exactly unique functionality, Shadowy Burden has the same mechanic.

Div · Jun 05, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

If you the necro hexes / aegis / water hexes give you so much trouble then you only need one spell to shut them down: Power Block. But I dont see you run a power block mes. I then conclude that they do not bother you enough, end of story.

Um, no. This game shouldn't be build wars.

Cirian · Jun 05, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

If you change Shadow Prison to 2..6 seconds of not attacking, nobody is going to bother using it.

The effect of the hex is candy compared to what SP primarily offers - a shadowstep on a competative recharge and an opening to dump black offhands and duals. A snare or KD could, perhaps should, come from an assisting character. It's like you say yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

The main problem is Expose Defenses. And the combination is even worse. You can't run away and you can't block. That often results in you dying unless you get healed. The snare only means that if you can't block/heal, you are still dead.

And this is skill combo coming out of one character... it's too complete an ability set to be on one toon. I like Expose as it already only works for the 'sin and it's a hex opener for blacks. If Shadow Prison and Beguiling Haze were more interchangable, like if the sin had to doubleteam with Water Eles or CripShots to be in such a strong position, I think the team mechanics would be more interesting.

-Cirian

Lady Callingwell · Jun 05, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

maybe make expose defenses not work (or at least not as good) if there are multiple hexes on target; that way you can either block or kite.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 05, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Callingwell

One of the top priorities on my personal wishlist is gole, the intention of anet was to provide a non-elite alternative to energymanagement; when now looking at the option available for non-ele primaries:
* GoLE provides 15 energy every 31 seconds at no price other than ele secondary (and spending it on 10+ energy skills, but that's not a big problem in most builds)
* Powerdrain at say 8 inspiration magic provides 12 energy every 25.25 seconds (although you need some time to search a spell to interupt) and requires the necesary skill in order to actually use it that way and requires attribute investment. Off course the interupt is some added value, but is cosidered a drawback for a lot of people with regards to actually doing it.
* Some elite alternatives are offering of spirit/blood, which both are only about equal to gole in any reasonable attribute investment situations (if you invest solely for energy management).

Now onto the ele itself, when looking at the traditional etherprodigy fueled ele there was the sacrifice of an elite to pump out all those expensive skills.
If you look at the energy gain of ether prodigy it provides an ammount of energy at 9 energy storage (which is about as far as you got with air and healing) of 23 every 30 seconds (to keep exhaustion steady, you could go deeper for a bit but not for long) which could be denied by removal and even provided quite some risks in the shatter enchantment heavy enviroment.
If we now look at GoLE in it's current version it provides (this time assuming you use it for 15 energy spells) 25 energy per 30 seconds without any drawbacks! So GoLE became a lot better than the elite anet felt to be overused/powered that also limited your use of other exhaustioncausing spells.
The two alternative elites in the estorage line require high energy storage (ether prism) or drastically reduced effectiveness when dp is acquired (second wind) and are both 2 second casts and cause exhaustion to boost!

So gole needs a hit in both the secondary range as well in the primary range imho to make it fair once more (or make it elite, but anet changed it to prevent forcing ppl into elite e-tools). I also think that the change in GoLE reduces a lot of the omnipresent aegis chaining, a lot of characters simply cannot afford it without GoLE, and the energy spent on it starts justifying it's effect once more.

Balance things based off of what the game needs, not comparisons to other skills.

But I think that GoLE is really needed for secondary eles. In the current game, there is almost no emanagement for non-ele casters at all besides power drain and auspicious in certain builds. Casters simply do need energy to do their jobs. Without GoLE being viable on secondaries, suddenly the amount of viable caster builds drops. Not only hexers, but stuff like SoR monks and SoD monks will almost certainly disappear also.

And trying to fix aegis by fixing gole isn't really fixing the problem, it's just putting it off for another time. Another emanagement or metabuild will probably come up offering an alternative way to use Aegis and we'll be right back to here. I would much prefer that they simply changed Aegis and left gole, which I consider fairly good for the game, in.

Nekretaal · Jun 05, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Arent most if not all of these non-paragon nerfs unnessessary if inspiration were simply un-nerfed?

Old school mantra of recall or powerdrain fuled Boonprot owned hexes hard... just having contemplation of purity on the bar kept the monk mostly free from the threat of hexes or daze. With deny hexes in the mix today would own them even in today's metagame.

Plus with casters encouraged to take inspired hex, just for the energy, if not for the effect, there's more room on the bar fdor everything else.

Old school drain enchantment owned aegis chains hard. No need to nerf aegis, when its so easy to fit several copies of enchantment removal on the bar.

Many people think that these nerfs were unnessary in the first place... Plus, with inspriation skills actually working, you dont have to worry about caster imbalance with eles and mesmers and monks envious of soul reaping. Booned monks were better than soul reaping monks (people tried the soul reaping monks even with spirits back then.. they just werent as good as the real monks).

Its pretty clear that just making inspriation skills actually work solves a lot of the problems with daze/hexes/and soul reaping... which means that the only thinks that might still need to be fixed are paragons (many design elements not just armor...) and avatar of melandru's ability to take completly take conditions out of the anti-warrior metagame and not just keep blindbots honest.

At some point you just have to gut check yourself and say "If this skill was ok for two years... and the best players in guild wars were not stupid for those two years... then maybe the skill is actually ok now."

Lady Callingwell · Jun 06, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

The drop in sole pressure oriented builds (which are the main users of the glyph) would also make the gole less mandatory on a monk and would improve the skillrequiring gameplay imho.

Also they gave ether prodigy some hits because it was too effective (and therefore staple), they added a better skill without all the drawbacks which really doesnt make sense if you ask me.

Falconer · Jun 06, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Longish thread, but worthwhile so far...

Ensign: just friendly advice... put a sentence or phrase after each suggested change up front... it'd cut 3-4 pages off the thread of 'whys'. You may understand, a goodly number of us regulars/lurkers will understand. But w/o some basis of rationale many/most won't.

Overall I agree w/ most of your stuff there.

Now to the meat...
Dervish:
I also like avatar of melandru as an idea... But frankly it's not a good implementation of the concept. I agree w/ the other poster that it would work much better if it removed one condition for each time you hit a target, or if it worked as a straight duration decrease... blind only lasting 33% normal duration for example isn't that scary. Or you gain a bit of health every time a condition is applied to you w/o the massive +health boost up front.

Wearying strike would be fine w/ just the higher energy and recharge. Having Melandru's only need apply on the skill right now is not a huge issue as both of them are that good. IMO: 5s of weaknes is not enough pain in comparison to the deep wound you're getting. With scythe speeds, that's 1 or 2 more sweeps at most before it goes away on it's own w/ no need for a removal. 10s at least keeps you honost. And the ~10 damage you cut off the +dam isn't that much of a change. I'd be greatly happy just to see the recharge on this one brought in line.

Paragons:
Frankly, I believe they need the same treatment as rangers got pre-release. Raw basic 80->70 AL nerf, I saw firsthand how this affected rangers and I think it would be healthy for the paragons. Rangers were able to stand and deliver at base80 AL... at 70 they needed to kite. Paragons don't have this problem as they still have shield + skillbuff + armorset AL boosts that the ranger doesn't/didn't have at the time. The problem is that I believe this needs to be part of a comprehensive rethink of the paragons skillset. Without one the other just doesn't work. Unfortunately complicated or multi-part buffs/nerfs rarely get much consideration.

"Watch Yourself" vs "Stand your Ground"
The change from 4->6adren is minor, and will barely affect WY. I can agree w/ that no trouble w/o any other changes to either skill.

I disagree w/ the other changes you list for one very basic reason. I believe stand your ground should always be a better AL buff/duration than watch yourself. Stand your ground literally requires that you not kite to recieve the AL buff... So it's much more damage neutral even w/ a higher +AL buff/duration, since you'll be taking more hits. Frankly, this was always a ranger weak point... it literally could not 'stand and deliver' when melee came calling, but paragons can and this is a prime feature of them I don't think they can or should lose. It clearly differentiates them from rangers. If anything right now stand your ground is undercosted, it's one of those paragon skills I like but I think should be 25 energy. Or similarly changed to only give it's AL boost while attacking (and maybe casting).

I've used watch yourself since the game released. Even after the nerf and all the whining. It's still a bread and butter skill in it's current form. Especially now as seeing large packet AL influenced damage is more common in PvP. The skill doesn't need more AL, even w/ a higher adren cost (the adren cost only matters when the adren gain limits it's uptime which it doesn't... the lower adren cost only encourages P/W's to spam it more). I'd go farther and keep it down to +1..16AL (equivalent to giving everyone in earshot a shield) and not let it exceed stand your ground.

I keep seeing people mention about how certain shouts like GftE fuel the paragon and they're right. But frankly, even w/ 2 pips base I've never seen a paragon hit energy problems in the same way I've had energy problems w/ a warrior. This to me suggests that the paragon has a bit too much energy going for it. So again, a bit higher adren to slow down the energy gain doesn't seem too problematic.

Dazed in general:
Your argument seems to boil down to the position that dazed should be more spammable, but less duration. And your reasons don't seem to spring from a current balance problem but from what I'd argue is more of a preferred playing style. However, one point you do not address is that the shorter duration dazed skills aren't used. And that dazed is clearly different from other conditions in that it is hard to use, and for the longest time was never seen outside the arenas.

I can't agree w/ this position, as the dazed needs to last long enough to be worthwhile for how hard it is to apply. Right now it's hard to apply and is actually worth it's duration. BHA itself can only keep a single target dazed w/ it's duration/recharge and that's as an elite. And that is completely assuming that you're putting all condition removal on the target player in spell form and none of them on a teammate (or non-spell based defenses on said removal char).

The other bit is that I've always seen condition removal as a package deal. Not as a matter of one skill here or there, even if it is elite. One elite skill countering all the condition application across the other team is unbalanced. RC is that kind of skill. If you have a split squad, and the only spell on one char of the split squad is mending touch... dazed isn't doing you that much good. You can daze the caster w/ him, and the split guy should be close enough together that MT is a concern for friendly removal. And if your only concern is dazed hitting the draw cond/RC guy... then a single copy of purge conditions or similar elsewhere is sufficient to remove it (purge signet on a warrior is still not a bad combo and has even seen use time buffs in the recent past).

Frankly, the only way I'd even see the daze reduction being workable is to eliminate the arc on BHA. There now it's short, on demand and unconditional on the recipient being a complete and utter tool dumb enough to let BHA actually hit him in the first place. However now... you simply have another close cousin of skull crack, temple strike, or stunning strike. Seriously, why aren't those skills run when BHA is?! Why is dazed the condition almost exclusively associated w/ rangers?

The only change I've been considering to concussison shot is as follows:
Any action by target foe is interupted when concussion shot hits. If it interupts a spell, target is dazed for 5..[17]21s. This attack deals +1..[13]17 damage.
EG: instead of nerfing the skill to be worth 15 energy, actually make it worth the full 25 energy. It changes from a soft to a hard interupt, and instead of only being X damage it's +X damage. The ranger really heavily lacks for expensive big energy skills. I'd rather not see their sole usable one get kicked down for an experiment I don't think will work. Even w/ a 5s recharge, the energy cost is prohibitive... so it really only gives you a faster 'chance' to try again, but you'll quickly find yourself energy limited.

"Tongue Biter" was 15en, but got upped to 25... and was never touched since as you'll recall. Across the beta weekends it appeared in various forms, but eventually it was put to 25en and stayed there. All you're doing is repeating this experiment in a different environs but w/o sufficient argumentation for why the results would be different.

Right now concussion shot is PvE worthy and I believe your proposed change destroys even that, and makes it even LESS PvP worthy! It's PvE worthy specifically because I can daze a mob, let the warrior beat it down while I move onto another target. The reason this doesn't work in PvP is quite simple... it cannot deal w/ the extremely strong condition removal currently present in the PvP game. Another clear difference here is you can't daze the necro to limit how much damage he can do while you help spike/pressure down the monk. So if it is used, it's usable really only against the guy doing the condition removal in the first place in PvP. Yet this is about the only way to apply pressure to this character...

I have a lot of mixed thoughts both pro and con on dazed in general here... I'd definately welcome a good thread addressing it's PvP and PvE consequences.

Ensign · Jun 06, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Wearying strike...5s of weaknes is not enough pain in comparison to the deep wound you're getting.

It does gut it for spiking applications, since your followups are all going to suck. Weakness is a huge deal for a scythe, where you get a lot of damage as base damage. I wouldn't mind it staying at a 10s weakness, but dropping the condition duration might open it up for potential usage off of a Melandru Dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

"Watch Yourself" vs "Stand your Ground"

I agree with you that "SYG" should give more net armor than "Watch Yourself!", especially considering the uptime of the two (and "Watch Yourself!" being an energy engine as well). For some reason I'm thinking that you can't hit WY that hard while hitting SYG is ok. But really I want to chop a bunch of armor off of the combination, and there's no reason more of it should come off of the weaker skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Dazed in general:
Your argument seems to boil down to the position that dazed should be more spammable, but less duration.

Other way around actually. I think that Dazed should have less duration, and have felt that way for a while. The reason being that it's an effect that is way too swingy - it's incredibly powerful, being one of the strongest mes effects in the game, something that *must* be removed every time it is applied. There isn't any other effect in the game that must be removed every single time it goes on, and quickly, to prevent a full team wipeout.

Yes, the effect (with the exception of BHA) is counterbalanced by high costs, and a relative ease of removal. However I do not feel that such 'all-in' effects are good for the game, and certainly not at such a low cost as BHA.

The whole 'daze should be more spammable' part comes more as a consequence - that once you write off daze as a long duration, maintained effect, you start looking at short term dazes and those are actually kinda interesting from a deep, tactical point of view. Hence, I'm interested in toying with the idea of short duration dazes. Long duration dazes I've seen more than enough of, and it's pretty ugly.

Peace,
-CxE

TLLOTS · Jun 06, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I agree with you that "SYG" should give more net armor than "Watch Yourself!", especially considering the uptime of the two (and "Watch Yourself!" being an energy engine as well). For some reason I'm thinking that you can't hit WY that hard while hitting SYG is ok. But really I want to chop a bunch of armor off of the combination, and there's no reason more of it should come off of the weaker skill.

What about simply stopping them from stacking? Either a straight mechanic change where the greatest armour buff is the only one that applies, or make an adjustment to one of the skills descriptions similar to how Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire were changed to prevent stacking.

Riotgear · Jun 06, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

What about simply stopping them from stacking? Either a straight mechanic change where the greatest armour buff is the only one that applies, or make an adjustment to one of the skills descriptions similar to how Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire were changed to prevent stacking.

OOV uses a very distinct categorization: Necromancer enchantments, which pretty much means "other Orders or Tainted Flesh" as far as anyone who's actually going to be affected by it is concerned.

Having something like WY not stack with SYG would require one of:
- Not stacking with other shouts, which would be completely counter-intuitive since a Paragon's job tends to be pumping out shouts
- Making them specifically not stack with each other, which is simply bad design.
- Making armor buffs not stack, which is a similarly dubious solution

Patccmoi · Jun 06, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

OOV uses a very distinct categorization: Necromancer enchantments, which pretty much means "other Orders or Tainted Flesh" as far as anyone who's actually going to be affected by it is concerned.

Having something like WY not stack with SYG would require one of:
- Not stacking with other shouts, which would be completely counter-intuitive since a Paragon's job tends to be pumping out shouts
- Making them specifically not stack with each other, which is simply bad design.
- Making armor buffs not stack, which is a similarly dubious solution

You could simply make one of them not stack with other armor buffs without putting a global armor buff cap (which people would cry about because of stuff like Earth enchants, etc. which have their uses in PvE)

For example you could make WY! give +AL like it does now but cannot make a target AL go higher than base AL + WY!. Or it only applies if target has no other AL buff. It's really not something hard to implement, at least i don't see why it should be.

If they WY! didn't stack with other AL buffs, it would likely be much more balanced and would make the combination fair without having to nerf SyG (which isn't really bad alone).

Bowstring Badass · Jun 06, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Come on just why not get rid of the entire Assassin class. Nerf all of the Assassin stuff to 1-5 dmg (sarcasm) ... I'm tired of seeing all of the Assassin hate if you them so much learn to play them and beat them and read your skills so you know how they work.

In all honesty the skills you listed are fine as they are now and Soul Reaping is just fine the way it is now. Not enough energy? Take out that 15 energy hex for a energy management skill.

And buff the Paragon why dont you...

Warrior 6A for "Fear Me!" wow GG..

Ranger just kill Broad Head why don't you.

Dervish ok I guess.

/endrant

Skye Marin · Jun 06, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Or, you could make "Watch Yourself!" only give an armor bonus when moving or knocked down. That way they fit together very well, and neither needs an armor nerf. Something like:

"Watch Yourself!"
6 strikes, Tactics
Shout. For 5..15 seconds, party members in earshot gain +5..25 armor when moving, and +40 armor when knocked down.

frojack · Jun 06, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Or, you could make "Watch Yourself!" only give an armor bonus when moving or knocked down. That way they fit together very well, and neither needs an armor nerf. Something like:

"Watch Yourself!"
6 strikes, Tactics
Shout. For 5..15 seconds, party members in earshot gain +5..25 armor when moving, and +40 armor when knocked down.

Or just make it special case. Why go to all the trouble of changing fundamental mechanics when it's only the synergy of these 2 skills we're trying to fix?

I didn't want to comment on this as there really isn't any need, but as a supporter of the ritualist, all I'm gonna' say is "Won't someone think of the children!"

Seriously though the class needs help. There 'is' potential there for quality but it requires attention from those with adequate experience. Read anything by Patccmoi about them. That is real consideration. Not ridiculous nonsense like 'delete them from the game/nerf them into the ground' etc...

Toilet Oni · Jun 06, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Assassin
*Reduce maximum Shadow Step distance from radar to half radar*
Black Lotus Strike: 10...20 Damage, 3...15 Energy
Shadow Prison: 2...6d

Dervish
Wearying Strike: 5...20 Damage, 5s Weakness, 10r

Elementalist
Searing Flames: 10...85 Damage, 1...7 Burning Duration
Mark of Rodgort: 10...25d
Blurred Vision: 8...14d
Frozen Burst: 12r
Rust: 15...30d, 1c

Ranger
Broad Head Arrow: 4...10d

Ritualist
Spirit Burn: 15...60/5...20 Damage, 5r
Spirit Rift: 2c
Splinter Weapon: 1...4 triggers, 12d
Wielder's Strike: 10...40/10...40 Damage, 5r

Amen to that