Curse

SaintGreg · Jun 03, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

-Signet of sorrow from 15...75 damage to 5...65 damage. Cast time from 1 to 2. Recharge from 30 to 12. Makes it better for pressure and not just for spiking.

You are trying to turn it into a better pressure skill by reducing the recharge, then turning it into an absolutely useless pressure skill by increasing the cast time. The damage isn't particularly great (unless you happen to be fighting IWAY with dead pets that won't res), and it is still prottable, I'd just decrease the recharge and leave everything else the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

-Mirror of disenchantment energy from 15 to 10. Casting time from 1 to 2. Skill was probably designed to be used on mesmers, so making it a 2 second cast makes it less viable on other professions.

Considering the only real use of this skill is removing aegis, moving to a 2 second cast would make it significantly more clunky at doing so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

-Frozen burst cast time from 3/4 to 1 sec. Recharge from your proposed 12 seconds to 10 seconds. Makes it more interruptible, and a 5 -> 12 second recharge seems too drastic.

Having played with frozen burst under NR, the extra cast time effectively makes using it as a warrior snare very difficult since they run out of the fairly limited area. Instead of being able to see where they are moving to and cast it so that it hits them when they actually do get there, they have likely either passed where you thought they would be moving to or changed directions. The only time you will get lucky is if they happen to be attacking something that is standing still. I don't know how much increasing the cast time from 3/4 to 1 second would do, but I'd be very wary because its quite possible that you are making the skill useless instead of still very good at Ensigns spec.

Personally, I'd like to see frozen burst with a slightly shorter duration and a shorter recharge to match compared to the 12 sec Ensign suggests. Something like 8 recharge with 1...7 duration. This keeps it so that if you miss a frozen burst (it happens) you aren't completely out of the game with the long 12 second recharge. It also puts the duration more in line with other comparable water hexes, slightly longer than most - but still shorter than deep freeze and icy shackles which are priced accordingly for their effect (huge cost/casting time and elite). I would also take out the extra long aftercast to pbaoe's.

wuzzman · Jun 03, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Lets nerf Aegis and Wards, since they are clearly not "active" forms of defense. "Aegis 1 going up!".

Greedy Gus · Jun 03, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

I'm not sure about it. IAS stances have their drawbacks (Flail's reduced speed, Frenzy's Double damage), which pretty much forces the user to bring a cancel to it, mostly Sprint. Shouts don't have that. So, you're basically forcing the Paragon to choose offense over defense prior to the game.
To remove this drawback in case you'd get targetted and want your higher AL back, you'd have to stop using shouts for 21 seconds(@12 L), and if there are other Warriors/Paragons in the group, they'd have to refrain from using Shouts as well for that duration.

In reality the way it would play out would be: in case you get targetted, you kite. Which is what mesmers & rangers & eles do in midline. Deciding whether or not to put up aggressive at different points in the battle would be a strategic choice on a higher level, precisely because you don't have an instant "double-click this icon to get your AL back" button.

ArKaiN · Jun 03, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

The problem with threads like this is that it opens up a highly specialized discussion that should be kept for people who know the game to any dumbass that goes "Omg I gots killzored by Empathy on my sin, is ovrpowerd!".
Result, 13 pages with around 10 posts worth reading.
Wearying Strike and Broadhead Arrow have to get nerfnuked. I currently use both in competitive PvP, and both make me go "Jesus, that's so wrong" quite often.

Skuld · Jun 03, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Lets nerf Aegis and Wards, since they are clearly not "active" forms of defense. "Aegis 1 going up!".

Wards are easy to counter, how do you counter unstrippable paragon stuff though?

ArKaiN · Jun 03, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

The problem with threads like this is that it opens up a highly specialized discussion that should be kept for people who know the game to any dumbass that goes "Omg I gots killzored by Empathy on my sin, is ovrpowerd!".
Result, 13 pages with around 10 posts worth reading.
Wearying Strike and Broadhead Arrow have to get nerfnuked. I currently use both in competitive PvP, and both make me go "Jesus, that's so wrong" quite often.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 03, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I dont think the rit skills need a damage nerf. Maybe spirit burn could use a damage nerf or an energy increase, maybe slightly longer recharge. The others may need slightly longer recharges. Being able to spike every few seconds(and for little energy) is one of the powerful things of rit spike. Purely Taking down the damage of the skills just makes them completely useless.

Taking out a rit spike usually revolves around [skill]vital weapon[/skill]. Vital weapon is their main defense. It gives them something around 140+ max health and +15 armor with the insignia they use. No vital weapon = dead rit spike.

[skill]Offering of spirit[/skill] gives them lots of energy to work with. Perhaps instead of not saccing health when near a spirit, the spirit loses health. Spirits are another part of their defense. If their spirits are constantly losing health they wont stay up long enough to be of any use.

makosi · Jun 03, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

The problem with threads like this is that it opens up a highly specialized discussion that should be kept for people who know the game to any dumbass that goes "Omg I gots killzored by Empathy on my sin, is ovrpowerd!".
Result, 13 pages with around 10 posts worth reading.
Wearying Strike and Broadhead Arrow have to get nerfnuked. I currently use both in competitive PvP, and both make me go "Jesus, that's so wrong" quite often.

I have too agree, especially with Broad Head Arrow. I like the skill but I find myself soloing monks really easily with it. The downside is the arc but its easy to get up close and then hit the button. Once the monk (or any caster for that matter) is dazed use Heket's Rampage and they don't stand a chance. I even unintentionally interrupt Reversal of Fortune and Spirit Bond much too often.

Part of me thinks that common sense needs to be buffed though because people don't use obstructions to give themselves a spare second or two to remove the condition. But at the same, what appears to be an obstruction doesn't always block arrows and there's no way to know for sure unless you know the maps inside out.

My suggestion, as with others', is to simply reduce the duration by 30-40%. The recharge of BHA is good and 15 energy isn't much with expertise so it wouldn't kill the skill to the point of uselessness.

Edit: When it comes to countering BHA hexes seem to be the biggest threat but blind is not a problem with Mending Touch on every rammo's skillbar these days.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 04, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

The problem with threads like this is that it opens up a highly specialized discussion that should be kept for people who know the game to any dumbass that goes "Omg I gots killzored by Empathy on my sin, is ovrpowerd!".
Result, 13 pages with around 10 posts worth reading.
Wearying Strike and Broadhead Arrow have to get nerfnuked. I currently use both in competitive PvP, and both make me go "Jesus, that's so wrong" quite often.

Actually, this thread has one of the highest useful-to-junk post ratios I've ever seen, though I suspect that really heavy moderating has to do with that.

But I really like almost all of the changes that are proposed. You'd have to keep a very close eye on hexbreaker aria to make sure that it doesn't overpower removal, especially with the new, weaker hexes. If you're trying to make hexes into things that you can work through but aren't super-powerful, you're going to have to balance removal around the idea that the hexes are going to have to stick for some time or else noone is going to use them.

And I don't see the problem with an un-cancelable aggressive. Making Paragons actually have to worry about positioning and spikes is a problem? That would open up a lot more plays against teams with paragons, making it actually possible to put pressure on them and force kiting as a defensive play and stuff.

v o i d · Jun 04, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

I like your wishlist, but

- Aegis is fine; a protection based block rate like Guardian could shift the favor to monk runners. Right now it's pretty good as it is.

- Soldier's Defense needs a recharge of 15.

Also, someone considered a buff to Warrior's Cunning as counter for blocks - imo a decent idea: With a recharge of 45 - and maybe 5 energy - i would see it as another option for the Warrior utility slot, currently filled with stuff like Heal Sig, Conjure, Enraging or Dis Blow.

Celeborn10 · Jun 04, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

While your attempt to force the SP sins out of using BLS and SP was valiant they (the evil army of templete cloning Narutards) would probably adapt around it. I've been seeing sins in Hero Battles using BSS>Signet of Toxic>Horns/DD>Impale which effectively seems to use the same brainless concept of spam 123456. With only two dagger attacks the time to use melee counters is cut down and energy is reduced to needing 15 energy for the combo (after the hex). The proposed change to SP would thus have little negative effect on the synergy of a Dagger/Dark Arts build.

The proposed nerf to BLS would still leave the Black line of dagger attacks much better than the Golden and the leads. Take for example Golden Lotus Strike, the counterpart to BLS:

Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you gain 5...11 Energy. Cost 5e, recharge 10s

I really don't see an alternative to the SP assassin coming until ANet decides to make leads>offhand>dual combos more effective via buffs and give better synergy options than SP has right now. Until then the evil SP Narutards will continue their pernicious ways. Perhaps a lobotomy could cure them but even such measures are unsure and likely to fail on subjects of such simple minds.

Just one question what about the elites Aura of Displacement and Shadow Meld? I can understand that a nonelite such as Recall would be overpowering in a split but should Shadow Meld which doesn't shadowstep the sin back to the ally recieve the nerfstick as well?

Div · Jun 04, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

You are trying to turn it into a better pressure skill by reducing the recharge, then turning it into an absolutely useless pressure skill by increasing the cast time. The damage isn't particularly great (unless you happen to be fighting IWAY with dead pets that won't res), and it is still prottable, I'd just decrease the recharge and leave everything else the same.

I agree that my proposed change isn't good, but I was just throwing a suggestion out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Considering the only real use of this skill is removing aegis, moving to a 2 second cast would make it significantly more clunky at doing so.

It is also very powerful in removing skills such as attunements, bonds, and even things like prot spirit. Given many people take mirror, I feel that it warrants a slight modification in its usage, though raising it to two seconds may be too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Having played with frozen burst under NR, the extra cast time effectively makes using it as a warrior snare very difficult since they run out of the fairly limited area. Instead of being able to see where they are moving to and cast it so that it hits them when they actually do get there, they have likely either passed where you thought they would be moving to or changed directions. The only time you will get lucky is if they happen to be attacking something that is standing still. I don't know how much increasing the cast time from 3/4 to 1 second would do, but I'd be very wary because its quite possible that you are making the skill useless instead of still very good at Ensigns spec.

Frozen burst is a good skill used when predicting enemy paths. It is not a huge change in functionality from 3/4 to 1 second, but it just makes it more likely to be interrupted by mesmers. The slight increase will most likely not make it useless as you stated. Under NR, the cast time becomes 1.5 seconds, a significant increase, so you can't use that argument to justify its uselessness. And using frozen burst under NR is a bad idea anyways if you have other snares, so the change won't make it any worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Personally, I'd like to see frozen burst with a slightly shorter duration and a shorter recharge to match compared to the 12 sec Ensign suggests. Something like 8 recharge with 1...7 duration. This keeps it so that if you miss a frozen burst (it happens) you aren't completely out of the game with the long 12 second recharge. It also puts the duration more in line with other comparable water hexes, slightly longer than most - but still shorter than deep freeze and icy shackles which are priced accordingly for their effect (huge cost/casting time and elite). I would also take out the extra long aftercast to pbaoe's.

If you miss a frozen burst, then it's too bad. If we used that logic, then are you suggesting skills like power drain should be lower recharge and lower energy gain? Like most skills, there's a risk involved when using it, and if it doesn't trigger like you want it to, then it's part of the game. It promotes skill of using frozen burst over spamming. The aftercast is needed to prevent spamming of snares. Again, we want to promote player skill over skill spamming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

The problem with threads like this is that it opens up a highly specialized discussion that should be kept for people who know the game to any dumbass that goes "Omg I gots killzored by Empathy on my sin, is ovrpowerd!".
Result, 13 pages with around 10 posts worth reading.
Wearying Strike and Broadhead Arrow have to get nerfnuked. I currently use both in competitive PvP, and both make me go "Jesus, that's so wrong" quite often.

If you look at other threads, there's a lot more bad posts. In this thread, most of the people that comment are either prominent forum posters or recognized PvP'ers in the game. While maybe not the best to judge skill balance, most of the people who replied have very legitimate arguments that either bring up new points or support the proposed changes. And there is no real point to your post besides to point out something obvious that'll happen to all threads. Some good players, some idiots posting.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 04, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Lets nerf Aegis and Wards, since they are clearly not "active" forms of defense. "Aegis 1 going up!".

sounds good to me.

zakaria · Jun 04, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

....seems to use the same brainless concept of spam 123456.

I just want to inform you if non did, sin attack concept is based on spamming 123456, whatever is his combo he is using it will be always 123456...OK ? retarded sin who is using c+space on recharge and unload his combo, pro one who knows about positioning, target selection and timing. So stop the crap about phrases like "123456" and "button mashing".

[sarcasm]P.S. I heard there is new monk skill that can counter all spikes it called spirit bond you should use it. Spirit bond> sp sin o.0 [/sarcasm]

OniMaster · Jun 04, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Why the hell does daze need to double cast time? That is what makes daze so damn cheesy.

Its not a form of pressure on monks, its another form of blackout.

Just make it so it makes skills easily interuptable. I should be able to use return, I should be able to SB and RoF. I should be able to SURVIVE. I just shouldn't be able to monk effectively (remove conditions, remove hexes, provide supplemental heals). The whole double cast time mechanic just leads to such cheese.

Make it make skills easily interuptable only. IMO it would still be incredibly useful and stronger players can still use it effectively. If you cant dshot mending touch, then you dont deserve to be able to completley shut down a monk. The good players will still be able to stop the monk from performing alot of key tasks, but its not gonna be instawipe. I dont really think you can make a "good nerf" of daze because the mechanic is so lame. Can you shut down the other teams draw? If so, wipe. If not, continue fighting. If they dont have a draw, or they are split, gg.

Its even dumber in single monk systems such as on splits.

Hexbreaker Aria as it is is complete trash. I cant think of a single good use for that crap, except maybe if some team had I dunno........ backfire... uncovered mindwrack???

When you look at the skills that screw over casters, they generally prohibit the cast: Guilt, Shame, Diversion, Migraine (via human intervention), in arenas I guess you could see mark of subversion. Most of the others are quickly covered up anyways (mind wrack), and stuff like Ether Phantom is gonna get drained asap anyways. Trying to think of a use for hexbreaker aria is really hard.. I guess it would work really well against Panic. Or on physicals with Shock or Mending Touch or grasping earth or something, but even then you are probably getting a cover hex.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 04, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

who uses mind wrack?

I think the mechanics of daze are fine, they just need to make it harder to apply, which is why a buff to conc shot and a nerf to bha is on the list.

v o i d · Jun 04, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Lets nerf Aegis and Wards, since they are clearly not "active" forms of defense. "Aegis 1 going up!".

Until you show me the active defense able to handle 4+ physical chars - half of them firing projectiles, some with self condition removal - i disagree.

And it's not like you can't break an Aegis chain. Wards are a bit trickier, but have other downsides.

SirJackassIII · Jun 04, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

In reality the way it would play out would be: in case you get targetted, you kite. Which is what mesmers & rangers & eles do in midline. Deciding whether or not to put up aggressive at different points in the battle would be a strategic choice on a higher level, precisely because you don't have an instant "double-click this icon to get your AL back" button.

The problem is that the game can change fast. One minute you're pushing, the next you're getting pushed back. When getting pushed back, it looks to me that the Paragon would be using his Defensive shouts to reduce damage taken, which means AR stays on and he loses his 10 AL. This makes AR only good on offensive Paragons really, while denying defensive Paragons an IAS to fuel their Shouts.

So, really, it might work out fine since they might add more defense with AR up than without it, but then what would be the point of the -10 AL nerf? Otherwise, if the AL penalty is too high so the defensive Shouts can no longer cover for the AL loss, defensive Paragons get screwed since A) they bring AR and can not deal with the AL loss or B) They don't bring AR and can't supply enough Defense with their shouts due to the reduced attack speed and thus reduced Adrenaline gain speed.

IMO, negative effects from skills should be controlable by the player. Some skills black out others on the bar, but you can time those skills or limit the affected skills to a minimum to reduce their effect. Likewise, stances can be canceled out to remove the possible negative effect they have, skills like Healing Signet can be broken off if you notice they're focussing on you for those 2 seconds, Maintained enchantments somewhat gimp the person who maintains them with the -1 EN pip, but he can end it if he needs the pip back.
Negative drawbacks on Shouts look like a bad idea to me, since the removal of them is not player controlled. Better counters to shouts I agree with, they're too specific now.

BlackEagle · Jun 04, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

The only place where daze is really problematic is where there is only 1 monk, ie. splits. But in 8v8 play, daze doesn't lead to an instant wipe. It means you have to bring something to deal with conditions elsewhere, ie. a midline draw. And to me, that isn't a bad thing. The biggest problem with daze is really the ease to apply it and the fact that it is automatically covered by the only real source of daze in the metagame atm (BHA/Apply) This means that you are forced to bring something to remove 2, which llimits your options greatly, which means you basically have to have a midline draw or a MT.

bhavv · Jun 04, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

on the comment about BHA, dazed has never been a problem for me in HA as we always have an RC prot and Draw conditions on another monk. That has actually become very standard now. Although BHA is rarely used in HA, but I cant comment on GVG since I dont play it. All the suggestions are great, Searing Flames however is only to be nerfed if the keep it as it is for PVE, but that goes in the other thread.

Also, I dont see it mentioned anywhere here that Aegis is an enchantment, and as one it is very easilly counterable. Most decent groups will bring an enchant removal, and use it on the called target after aegis has been cast. But Ensigns suggestion to balance it was spot on as it really makes no sense to allow a LoD/Infuser to carry a 50% aegis that lasts 9 seconds with 9 prot, when the prot monk only gets 11 seconds at 14 prot.