Curse

Melody Cross · Jun 02, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't really like it either, but a cap wouldn't really be effective. Reason being that 50% miss vs 75% miss matters only in a few situations (interrupts), but as far as physical pressure goes the difference is pretty meaningless, you aren't going to die. The problem isn't the stuff stacking, it's how redundant it all is. You have to stop the Aegis and the Wards and shut down the blind and hexes, because any one part of that working makes it very difficult to kill anything. It's easy to nerf stacking, but harder to nerf redundancy.

Maybe what's needed are buffs to skills like Warrior's Cunning, to just say 'for X seconds, all of your redundant miss chance stuff doesn't work' or the like. You need some proactive options to cut through that stuff, not just reactive interrupts and removal.

Hmm…why not? Wouldn’t that solve much of the Aegis hate floating around if block rate was capped at 50% for two skills and could go over for single skills? It’s the same effect as the run buff nerfs a while back. SoD still does 75% and near completely saves a single player under heavy physical pressure, but it only does 75%...even with Aegis.

Wouldn’t teams be less willing to add redundancy into their builds if these redundant skills did not also stack? ATM, overprot has two benefits. You have something to fall back on if the fist fails and you have something to buff up your passive skills to elite proportions on a team level. Since physical damage is in almost every build, there is always a decent reason to add redundancy against it. The more damage you shut down, the better you can hold flagstand or push in.

Dispersed pressure applied by multiple physical sources can be dealt with by Aegis pretty handily on its own, I don’t disagree with Blame the Monks on that. It’s when you stack that blockrate becomes a real gimmick. Aegis+ward against melee+defense anthem is a reason to cry foul of blockrate if you’re running a 3warrior/BA ranger/paragon setup. It may not matter in a long fight with AoE to counter the wards, shatters and mirror disenchant for the aegis, etc...but because blockrate works the way it does, people still want it.

So…why not buff Aegis and cap blockrate to 50%? Teams would be less willing to run redundancy because there is such an easy to use skill on the monk’s bar. If Anet did that while changing non-shatter skills as well (lets say drop war cunning’s uptime and recycle like they did with stances so that it can be used frequently to get your skills through, but is a waste to blow on extra DPS pressure…and make it 5E too so wars could afford it regularly) would it be a fair compromise to the issue or overkill?

Then we’re doing two things; we’re reducing the use of redundancy across the board and we’re adding a tell for monks to see before an adren spike, making catches easier, but making spiking and focus pressure easier too.

Or would nubs wanting to get to VoD by any means necessary make the issue moot?

This is fun! Haven’t had a good talk like this in a while

GGs

clawofcrimson · Jun 02, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

we’re reducing the use of redundancy across the board and we’re adding a tell for monks to see before an adren spike, making catches easier, but making spiking and focus pressure easier too.

I like it.

Lord Natural · Jun 02, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Hmm the only hex removal you would need for his Reckless Haste is your brain that tells you to stop attacking for the few seconds it last.

You're right, I mis-read. Was looking at the Blurred Vision duration.

Zuranthium · Jun 02, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Zuranthium and I have very different tastes, as cow's similar bar was boring as hell to me. Our version used a sup rune (16s, 12l, 7c) and traded out vicious for harriers. Seems to me it is just another utility midline spiker. I honestly felt like a mindless button smasher. No real judgment or skill required, just stand there in the middle being invincible spiking and spamming your skills on recharge.

You had a superior rune and weren't getting the full bonus from your shield (only 7 command) and still felt that way? *boggle*

Anyway, it would be a more interesting build with the changes I listed. GFTE being at 6 adren and changed such that Vicious Attack is almost garunteed to critical means that you don't just spam GFTE on recharge. The Leadership change means the character can actually split. Plus you'd have muthaf*ckin "It's just a fesh wound." How hot is that?!?

~Z

Ensign · Jun 02, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I think we see eye-to-eye conceptually, but I still think you underestimate the power of pof/sof/reck and for that matter your proposed nerfed versions of faint.

Oh, that version of Faint is still really good, which belies just how crazy it is right now. But it is something that I think you can live with as the only hex on you, and it's prime interrupt bait. That's the more dangerous thing about something like Reckless or Blurred, they shut down anti-hex interrupts unlike Faint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Under your three tier approach, I think the long term nuisance hexes MUST be mild enough that if even they sit on you a reasonable balanced team can score kills.

I think they need to be reasonable enough that you can score kills under the effects of a single long term shutdown hex. I don't think you need to be able to function under the effects of multiple shutdown hexes at once. However at that point those hexes are really vulnerable to removal, since you'd be knocking out multiple high investment hexes at once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I think hexes should be balanced around more reasonable hex removes that the absurd volume of hex removes you have to slot in now.

You can't balance hexes, or anything for that matter, around a 'balanced' defense being able to remove or otherwise counter your offense completely. Offenses are specialized, defenses generalized for the most part. If a strategy of making hexes stick can't keep some hexes on a team with typical hex defenses, your hexes are simply too weak. Some are going to stick if the game is balanced unless you do go nuts with that amount of removal.

However to be balanced those hexes that do stick can't be enough to completely shut down the opposing team. They should apply some pressure, sure, and some shutdown, but that's the point of the startegy...you're replacing Wards and Blind and more physical damage and DD with your miss chance and degen, you can't counter everything completely, you just need to counter what you can and play around what's left. Right now hexes are clearly over the top, but the reaction to that can't be 'ok, we'll make all hexes suck so that they're never played again'. You need to scale them back, and scale them back, until they're something that teams have a chance of fighting against without triple Expel and the like.

That means hammering problem hexes, and buffing removals something fierce.

(I want Smite/Veil/Deny on 5/1/8, Remove on 5/1/5, and Convert on 10/1/15 target ally, along with Hexbreaker Aria at 6A triggering on skill)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I felt like other midline take more skill and provide more interesting options

There's plenty of room to make plays even on a shout-heavy Paragon bar. Those plays are more strategic than twitchy, and the effects aren't as immediately obvious as DShotting an Aegis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Hmm…why not? Wouldn’t that solve much of the Aegis hate floating around if block rate was capped at 50% for two skills and could go over for single skills?

It wouldn't hurt but I don't think it matters, at least as far as damage goes. It isn't like 'oh, they only have Aegis up, so we're fine'. If they have Aegis up, they aren't feeling pressure. If they're sitting in Ward Melee, they aren't feeling Melee pressure. If they're in a Ward and have Aegis up, technically they feel even less pressure, but it doesn't actually matter. The problem with Aegis + Ward Melee, for instance, isn't that the two of them is 75%, but that in order to apply pressure you need to remove both Aegis and Ward Against Melee. They are both individually powerful enough to stop you.

Now, what it would matter for, and the reason I'd be in favor of such a cap, is that a capped block chance does matter for disruptive abilities like DShot. Lowering 75% block to 50% block isn't going to make someone feel the Warrior's damage all that much more, but it will allow them to distract twice as many Aegis, or miss chance hexes as they would otherwise, and through that claw their way through that defense.

I'd be in favor of a 50% cap on miss rate, and a 50% cap on block rate, in order to enhance disruptive abilities (interrupts and knockdown) in fighting off those effects.

Peace,
-CxE

Riotgear · Jun 02, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

along with Hexbreaker Aria at 6A triggering on skill)

I can't imagine hexes working at all with two copies of that.

Living Parasite · Jun 02, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

On the subject of Paragon AL, you could make it so that Centurion's only gives armor while under a shout or chant NOT a refrain; this would make it so that Aggressive Refrain doesn't synergize with Centurion's.

Div · Jun 02, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Aggressive refrain should be like healing signet, where you lose, say, 10 armor when activated. Or have a similar mechanism to flurry where base damage (which is where a lot of the pressure is from) is reduced by, say, 15%. The casting cost can then be lowered to 10-15 energy, making it more able to be reapplied in the case the paragon needs to be split quickly and doesn't have time to put up shouts. That'll make the skill more of an "apply when needed" rather than a "apply it once and have it stick forever" because honestly the 25 energy means nothing if it's maintained forever.

rii · Jun 02, 2007, 08:53 AM // 08:53

I think that Paragon base AL being dropped is unlikely, and approaching it from a skill change perspective I think Agg. Refrain could carry an AL penalty whilst activated. At the moment Paragon pressure isn't quite as good as warrior, due to lack of KD, more solid interrupts, etc, but the raw damage is pretty high.

I think it's also fine to say that Paragon pressure is easier to maintain than warrior. You go straight through w/melee and kiting isn't *as* effective. I think for what is in effect a simple way to pressure (basically button mashing a target and switching when it gets protted) Paragons need to be easier to take down.

If you stuck conditional of -30AL on Agg. Refrain then offensive pressure Paragons get reduced from ~100AL to ~70AL, which puts it on par with the alternate midline ranged pressure, Ranger.

Also, the proposed change to GFTE shouldn't affect the maintenance of Agg. Refrain, you only need to hit anthem of flame on recharge to get that benefit, which is energy based and dies after 10s, so even if you're sat there with pof/sof/reckless/aegis/soldiers defense, it's not dropping off, and since I maintain anthem of flame should be spammed on recharge taking a couple of seconds off the duration isn't going to make a lot of difference, so either drop it down to 15s~ where it's going to be vaguely challenging to remember to maintain or hit something else about it (see above).

I'd like soldiers defense dropped to 15s recharge as well tho... IDK how messed up it actually is but seeing 2 W/ 3P / 2 Mo/w with 5 copies of soldiers just seems a bit stupid.

Riotgear · Jun 02, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I think Agg. Refrain could carry an AL penalty whilst activated.

That's actually an interesting suggestion, kind of removing AR's "must-have" status as well, though I'm a bit leery of the concept of an AL-reducing skill that can't really be turned off any other way than complete inaction until it expires. Perhaps if it was cheaper and not auto-reapply....

Perhaps echoes could be changed to lose their auto-reapply property after a certain duration. I'd say after a number of reapplications, but that would be counter-intuitive and would make them less-effective with more shouts.

As for nerfing GTFE, I'm not sure I really like that idea. Unlike Watch Yourself, using GTFE on recharge actually provides benefit beyond just being an energy battery. It's a skill that gains usefulness from spam, and raising the cost gimps it at that. WY is a skill I'd kind of rather not see get nerfed AGAIN because it's a good skill which fits well into heavy pressure templates, and is really only a problem in the hands of one class.

Leadership is also at the core of both, so perhaps it's time to kick Leadership down a rung too and drop some skill costs. Defensive Anthem is still ridiculous though, 2-sec cast time please.

Raising · Jun 02, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Spirit Rift: 2c -> why nerf this ? pretty easy to move away from this one

Wielder's Strike: 10...40/10...40 Damage, 5r -> 2 vital weapon rits and this skill alone would be enough for spiking with 5 seconds recast..

Div · Jun 02, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raising

Wielder's Strike: 10...40/10...40 Damage, 5r -> 2 vital weapon rits and this skill alone would be enough for spiking with 5 seconds recast..

Only problem is that with 7 spikers, it only deals 560 damage to a 60-armor target. With a shield against lightning damage, it effectively brings their armor to 78, meaning they'd take ~400 damage only and a warrior with a shield has 106 armor, resulting in ~250-300 damage dealt (note: calculations are estimated since I don't recall exact formula for armor). Comparing that to the 15...60 damage now, and you'll see that the damage is reduced by 33% at 15 channeling.

rii · Jun 02, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'm a bit leery of the concept of an AL-reducing skill that can't really be turned off any other way than complete inaction until it expires. Perhaps if it was cheaper and not auto-reapply....

Perhaps echoes could be changed to lose their auto-reapply property after a certain duration. I'd say after a number of reapplications, but that would be counter-intuitive and would make them less-effective with more shouts.

I don't see what problem there would be with dropping AL values... especially not to those numbers. A Paragon with 70AL is just as likely to survive as a mesmer, ele, or anything else in your midline, it's not as if the proposal is to stick them in perma-frenzy. A drop-off of 20s is reasonable, any shorter than that and it might become annoying to maintain so if you really don't think your monks can handle it, either a) don't put it up or b) sit on your ass for 20s... it's not as if you still can't deal your basis DPS.

As for echoes I don't see why there isn't an upper limit 'no matter what'. Say 45-60~ on Agg. Refrain and similar numbers on mending refrain etc. If it was any shorter blowing 25 energy would be too much and limit energy-based skill use, but at that level at least it gives interrupters something to do combined with the 2s cast. Maybe add 10s~ on the recharge so interruption is something you'd rather avoid. I don't see why echoes thencan be kept up indefinately when there are no counters or removals available.

pah01 · Jun 02, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ok, there's this meme flying around that apparently lumps everything that doesn't support a very reactive, fast paced, twitchy playstyle as "passive play", and anything that is associated with "passive play" is inherently bad.

That simply isn't a fair definition, and that idea simply isn't true. There is plenty of room in the game for skills that don't have fast cast times, fast recharges, and require specific reactive timing to be effective. Those skills are more strategic, and still require timing and positioning, just of a different sort than all of the twitch skills. As long as such skills have sufficient costs and vulnerabilities that such strategic decisions need to be made in their use, they're good for the game.

I agree with this.

Its just that long duration hexes that are spammed on recharge and covered by heavily spammable skills are an example of passive play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Speaking from experience, I think there's a lot of interesting gameplay that comes from playing a caster with important 2s cast spells, against a team with Rangers or interrupt Mesmers. I know that I'm constantly watching their interrupters as well as my targets, to know when I'll be able to move in to cast a key spell offensively, when I can cast something defensive in place, or when I'll have to run behind a wall to Aegis or the like. You're still reading the field and making decisions off of it, just of a very different sort than camping a cast to interrupt, or watching for their Warriors to converge to prot a target.

That's why I think that Defensive Anthem is fair at 2c but not 1c. At 1c you can cast it in your opponent's face without any concerns, skills with 1 second cast times are non-trivial to interrupt if you aren't specifically hunting them. 2 second cast times on the other hand are easy interrupts on someone paying attention - and when it is interrupted, they're down 15 energy for no effect on top of the wasted time and long recharge.

One last thing to put out there - it's those high investment, "passive", strategic skills and plays that enable twitchy, reactive play to exist in the first place. If they simply went away, Rangers would disappear from the metagame along with them. After all, what good is a pro interrupter if everything worth interrupting has been removed from the game?

Like deep freeze? Diversion?

Diversion is exactly the sort of skill that isnt "twitchy" play but I think everyone who coins the term "passive play" will say that skilled use of diversion is an example of "active play".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't disagree with this assessment of the current metagame. Many hexes destroy someone completely, last forever, and are very spammable, and that's a problem. That's a very accurate description of what makes a problem hex, actually.

Here's the difference in my mind though. While you're focusing on one type of hex and saying they all should fit that mold, I'm taking a slightly different appraoch. My feeling is that a hex is fair if it only destroys a toon XOR last a long time XOR is spammable. The problem hexes are exclusively hexes that do more than one at once.

But setting up the problem that way implies that there are 3 distinct types of hexes that can be balanced. One, hexes that destroy someone completely, but have short durations and long recharges; two, hexes that last a long time, but are a nuisance and have long recharges; and three, hexes that are spammable, but don't last long and don't destroy a victim.

Under that guise I'm fine with leaving Price of Failure alone, for instance. It lasts a long time, sure - but the effect, on its own, is not a problem (the biggest problem with Price and Spirit is how they amplify other problem skills). It also now has a long recharge on it, so you have to pick where you want to put it. Blurred Vision and Reckless Haste are problematic under that metric, as hexes that last a long time and really wreck their victim. They should either take an uptime hit, or have their effect scaled back into something that's less of a 'must remove' effect.

I hadn't spelled it out as explicitly before, and I'm rethinking several hexes in light of it. Remember, though, that there's more than one way to build a fair hex, and all of them should be explored by the skillset.

Just to say that I agree with a cap on Miss rate at 50% unless the skill itself specifically is over this amount, like Ineptitude is 100%.

Price and Spirit of Failure right now are the type of hex that you put on someone and cover it to hell. Then you stack it with aegis/wards stances and physicals are completely messed up.

If you weaken hex spam to a certain point where you cant keep cover hexes on these particular hexes then these hexes will not see play.

If price/spirit are good eneogh in their current incarnations to see play they will last for a long time AND completely destroy a toon AND will be spammable on recharge.

I disagree with your statement that its ok to completely destroy a toon for a long time if the hex isnt spammable.

IMO if the hex is debilitating it should last for a short time just like knockdowns/ your argument for daze and other conditions like blind and cripple.

I am not worried about long lasting degen hexes any more than long lasting condition degen because you can still play beatdown through this stuff because the debilitating shit doesnt stay and kill a player for ever.

Joe

Zuranthium · Jun 02, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

(I want Smite/Veil/Deny on 5/1/8, Remove on 5/1/5, and Convert on 10/1/15 target ally, along with Hexbreaker Aria at 6A triggering on skill)

Well I can't agree with you on Smite/Veil/Deny at all. Smite Hex would become too good as pressure on an 8 second recharge, Veil is already excellent because of the number of different ways you can use it (pre-prot or maintaining it on someone that you send off to ninja the other team's Water Runner), and the key to turning Deny into a great skill is improving the Divine Favor line such that you can actually create a bar that doesn't suck where Deny Hexes is reliably removing 3 hexes a cast.

I totally agree on Remove because it's useless right now (also set Expel Hexes to a 5 second recharge), Convert should be self-targetable but the recharge/cost improvement is not necessary, and Hexbreaker Aria should trigger on skill and go back to being a 1 second activation (but keep the 8 adren....or perhaps even do 9 or 10...that would be a strong effect).

EDIT: Also, Inspired/Revealed Hex should be 15 second "recharges" and Divert Hexes should be a 7 second recharge but give you 5 energy back if it removes less than 2 hexes. That way it's less of a P/R/S game when you give the skill to one of your Monks, since it can still be used as spot removal.

~Z

phoenixtech · Jun 02, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Its a decent list, but I much rather see more creative buffs

The GW game mechanics have changed gradually with each expansion, in proph the basic mechanics were pretty balanced, factions added "weapon" spells, offensive/defensive rituals and nightfall added a huge buff to the shout mechanic. Alot of the "problems" today is due to the lack of proper counters to these new mechanics hence the paraway + rit spike teams.

Izzy once said a long time ago that they want to see more self-sufficiency in the classes (I think the word he used was holistic). Basically, you want to give every class more basic self-heals and basic counters to shutdowns since they will make the class more versatile. A warrior is a perfect example of this, he is a specialized melee based damage dealing machine, but at the same time he has some basic heals (heal sig) and some basic counters to shutdown (interupts/kd).

What I rather see is buffs to each class as to make them more versatile. Of course you are never going to have a warrior outheal a monk, or a monk doing more melee damage than a warrior. Here are some examples of what I rather see: (I'll only make warrior suggestions since I don't have time to do this for every class, but the idea is to buff EVERY class and make them versatile).

Whirling Axe Elite Axe Attack. If Whirling Axe hits, you strike for +5...17 damage. If it is blocked, Whirling Axe is disabled for 10 seconds and your target loses an enchantment.

Battle Rage Elite Stance. For 5...17 seconds, you move 25% faster and gain 50% more adrenaline from attacks. Battle Rage ends if you use any non-attack skills. When Battle Rage ends, you lose all adrenaline AND 1 hex.

Skull Crack Elite Melee Attack. If it hits, this attack interrupts the target's current action. The target foe loses all shouts/refranes/echos. If that foe was casting a Spell, that foe is Dazed for 10 seconds.

Steady Stance Elite Stance. For 10 seconds, the next time you would be knocked down, you gain 1...3 strikes of adrenaline and lose a hex/condition instead. Increase to 10r.

Soldier's Stance Elite Stance. For 4...9 seconds, you attack 33% faster while under the effects of a Shout or Chant. AND 33% of your attacks CANNOT miss.

Basically, you buff existing skills like this to serve dual purpose. Buffing it so a class like warrior can counters such as ageis/sod/hexes/conditions/etc is what I rather see. I don't have time to do this for every class but I hope people get the general idea.

I also rather see more synergy in skill combos, and I'm not talking about assasin-style combos. I mean stuff like sever-gash.

I think this game is better served by making CREATIVE buffs and making classes more versatile, instead of the non-stop cycle of nerfing things that lack proper counters. Also, creative buffs will not have as much adverse effect on the non-GvG population and will have less negative PR hit.

At the end of the day though, most of these changes are fine and it's always easier just to nerf things since all it's the easiest way to go, and since ANET is prob too busy with GW:EN and GW2 to care about improving the game anyways. Oh yeah, since I'm going against popular opinion in this thread I'm sure all of the rabid sheeppl will come out in force and flame me to hell, that's fine, but before you reply remember the golden rule: READ, THINK, ONLY THEN REPLY.

Riotgear · Jun 02, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

The thing with an on-skill Hexbreaker Aria is that all you'd need is 2 paragons and it would be impossible to make anything, even a water hex, stick. Hell, you could stick a copy on an R/P if you wanted.

Especially with a 1-sec cast time. Warriors sprinting out of freezing gust, yay? I'd love to see Deep Freeze with something like that too, lasting all of 2 seconds. Please explain to me how that wouldn't be disgustingly overpowered. Especially with the suggested buffs to single removal: Any uncovered hex that doesn't trigger on skill activation would be burned off, for covered ones, the cover gets burned off and then the single removal mops up the rest.

I'm not sure I like 5/1/5 remove hex either. Not only would that be extremely effective on a split or ganker, but MOR-Remove Hex is already very powerful cleanup, and 5/1/5 means that you can have a midliner popping a hex every 3 seconds with a 3/4 second cast.

Patccmoi · Jun 02, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Its a decent list, but I much rather see more creative buffs

The GW game mechanics have changed gradually with each expansion, in proph the basic mechanics were pretty balanced, factions added "weapon" spells, offensive/defensive rituals and nightfall added a huge buff to the shout mechanic. Alot of the "problems" today is due to the lack of proper counters to these new mechanics hence the paraway + rit spike teams.

Izzy once said a long time ago that they want to see more self-sufficiency in the classes (I think the word he used was holistic). Basically, you want to give every class more basic self-heals and basic counters to shutdowns since they will make the class more versatile. A warrior is a perfect example of this, he is a specialized melee based damage dealing machine, but at the same time he has some basic heals (heal sig) and some basic counters to shutdown (interupts/kd).

What I rather see is buffs to each class as to make them more versatile. Of course you are never going to have a warrior outheal a monk, or a monk doing more melee damage than a warrior. Here are some examples of what I rather see: (I'll only make warrior suggestions since I don't have time to do this for every class, but the idea is to buff EVERY class and make them versatile).

Whirling Axe Elite Axe Attack. If Whirling Axe hits, you strike for +5...17 damage. If it is blocked, Whirling Axe is disabled for 10 seconds and your target loses an enchantment.

Battle Rage Elite Stance. For 5...17 seconds, you move 25% faster and gain 50% more adrenaline from attacks. Battle Rage ends if you use any non-attack skills. When Battle Rage ends, you lose all adrenaline AND 1 hex.

Skull Crack Elite Melee Attack. If it hits, this attack interrupts the target's current action. The target foe loses all shouts/refranes/echos. If that foe was casting a Spell, that foe is Dazed for 10 seconds.

Steady Stance Elite Stance. For 10 seconds, the next time you would be knocked down, you gain 1...3 strikes of adrenaline and lose a hex/condition instead. Increase to 10r.

Soldier's Stance Elite Stance. For 4...9 seconds, you attack 33% faster while under the effects of a Shout or Chant. AND 33% of your attacks CANNOT miss.

Basically, you buff existing skills like this to serve dual purpose. Buffing it so a class like warrior can counters such as ageis/sod/hexes/conditions/etc is what I rather see. I don't have time to do this for every class but I hope people get the general idea.

I also rather see more synergy in skill combos, and I'm not talking about assasin-style combos. I mean stuff like sever-gash.

I think this game is better served by making CREATIVE buffs and making classes more versatile, instead of the non-stop cycle of nerfing things that lack proper counters. Also, creative buffs will not have as much adverse effect on the non-GvG population and will have less negative PR hit.

At the end of the day though, most of these changes are fine and it's always easier just to nerf things since all it's the easiest way to go, and since ANET is prob too busy with GW:EN and GW2 to care about improving the game anyways. Oh yeah, since I'm going against popular opinion in this thread I'm sure all of the rabid sheeppl will come out in force and flame me to hell, that's fine, but before you reply remember the golden rule: READ, THINK, ONLY THEN REPLY.

Did you read the thread before you replied? Cause Ensign himself said that this is only the nerf list, because before you start buffing things you must insure that the broken stuff hurting the game is fixed. He said that he will post his buff list once he feels that the nerf list is complete. And since nerfs to broken stuff should always be a priority over buffs for balance, it's a good idea to go in that order.

If you forget nerfs to broken stuff and only do 'creative buffs', you end up with buff cycles always bringing the game more and more to build wars. Everything becomes too strong and is 'balanced' only by the fact that a counter as strong exist. But then you actually destroy build options because you must be sure you have all the overpowered counters and your own overpowered stuff to have any chance. And this is dumb. It's what a LOT of games do to please their customers. See WoW for a very clear example of cyclic buffs with very few nerfs in comparison. People don't complain much as their class over time only gets stronger and stronger with few nerfs that aren't compensated by various buffs. But look at what 'competitive' PvP is in WoW and there isn't anything close to balanced there. It's pretty much who uses his overpowered stuff first and has the overpowered gear to make it even more overpowered wins.

Creative buffs to make versatile skills is something tons of PvPers ask for. Most of us want versatile skills because those are interesting. But you need to fix what's broken first and then you can think about what to buff while staying careful not to break something else (like introducing Rt Spike...).

I don't like most of your ideas cause they bring stuff that have nothing to do with the class in there (warriors don't have hex or enchant removal and shouldn't. There's secondaries for a reason. The same way Dervishes might but they don't have access to KDs or Interrupts, they need their secondary for it), but increasing skill versatility should be aimed for cause versatile skills lead to increased tactical options and more interesting play. It's why skills like Diversion are so popular, because you can do so many different tactics with it. The only one i like the base idea of is Skull Crack, it'd seem fitting to have this skill remove echos from target on interruption (maybe shout/chants too, not sure) and by adding this bit more versatility to the skill, it might start seeing play since it's not actually bad anymore, just that there's better stuff to use in general.

phoenixtech · Jun 02, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Did you read the thread before you replied? Cause Ensign himself said that this is only the nerf list, because before you start buffing things you must insure that the broken stuff hurting the game is fixed. He said that he will post his buff list once he feels that the nerf list is complete. And since nerfs to broken stuff should always be a priority over buffs for balance, it's a good idea to go in that order.

1) You can nerf by buffing counters. It's a system of balance, by buffing counters you mitigate alot of broken stuff. Got a problem with paragons? Buff anti-shouts, add in more shout/echo/refraine removal.

2) What, I'm not allowed to post buff suggestions, I gotta wait until Ensign posts his? Also, Let's just say we disagree on the order of nerfs -> buffs. I rather do both at the same time.

3) Like I said before, the high end GvG crowd is a very small percentage of the total population, nerfs before buffs is bad PR, and let's just say we disagree on "appeasing customers". I'm a business man, I think appeasing customers is a good thing as long you keep an eye out for long-term implications. Buffing "rit spike" was a short-sighted and half-assed attempt to give back rits what they lost after the spirit nerfs. Instead of cyclical buffs we now have a cyclical nerf cycle, but instead of appeasing customers, you are losing customers. Now that is a bad way to do business. Also I don't play WOW so I have no clue what you are talking about.

4) Let's face it, there's a division in ideology when it comes to PVP and that's what this thread is really about. There's the "balanced style" camp and there is the "gimmick" camp. The balanced player has more time invested in this game and HATES losing to gimmicks. Skill > Gimmicks. That's great and I totally agree with that. Problem is you are still limited to 8 skills on a bar and can't bring all of the counters you need to vs all of the increasing gimmicks out there, so most of the balanced players herecall for a NERF the gimmicks/garbage/etc. I rather give the balanced player more versatile counters to gimmicks so that in the end skill > gimmick, because there will always be gimmicks, I can guarantee when GW:EN comes out there'll be another round of gimmicks, followed by nerfs. Why not just give the balanced players versatility to deal with it now?

What most of the balanced players don't realize is that gimmicks in this game is a GOOD thing. Casual players don't have TIME to deal with anything other than "gimmicks". Casual players will ALWAYS gravitate to Rit spamming/Air Spike/Earth Spike/Blood Spike/RAO thumping/Smiting/FOC spike/IWAY/RIT spike/Paraway/ etc, etc. That's why I rather see buffs first. Nerfing "broken garbage" drives away some of your customer base, and last time I checked, there aren't GvG-only skills. So these skill changes affect the whole game, from GvG -> HA -> TA/RA/AB -> PVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I don't like most of your ideas cause they bring stuff that have nothing to do with the class in there (warriors don't have hex or enchant removal and shouldn't. There's secondaries for a reason. The same way Dervishes might but they don't have access to KDs or Interrupts, they need their secondary for it), but increasing skill versatility should be aimed for cause versatile skills lead to increased tactical options and more interesting play. It's why skills like Diversion are so popular, because you can do so many different tactics with it.

This is where we once again disagree, I rather see warriors have CONDITIONAL enchant removal and hex/condition removal without having to goto secondary classes. That's the whole point of versatility. Each class should be able to deal with all of the game mechanics that exists in the game: enchants, weapons, wards, spells, conditions, hexes, shouts, etc... but some classes are better at certain things than others.

Ensign · Jun 02, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I think that Paragon base AL being dropped is unlikely, and approaching it from a skill change perspective I think Agg. Refrain could carry an AL penalty whilst activated.

This idea is amazingly good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

you only need to hit anthem of flame on recharge to get that benefit

It doesn't actually work that way in practice, not during combat. Out of combat, sure, hit Anthem on recharge, it blinks off every 11 seconds, and your Refrain stays up forever. In combat, the refreshes are more erratic. You put up Anthem, use an attack skill and it expires immediately. Then you put it up again, but don't immediately use an attack skill for whatever reason, and now you're on the clock to hit with one in the next few seconds to keep your Refrain up. If you have your attack skill ready but miss with it, your Refrain is going to drop a lot of the time if you don't have some other shout blink off. I've played Paragon enough to know that in combat, Anthem of Flame is not a complete solution to keeping up your Refrain. Without a ton of attack skills you get owned too hard by Aegis or any miss stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Unlike Watch Yourself, using GTFE on recharge actually provides benefit beyond just being an energy battery. It's a skill that gains usefulness from spam

Casting something like GftE on recharge is a bad gameplay mechanic, not something you really want to encourage. Fortunately it's not technically optimal play for a majority of Paragon bars. You normally want to synch up your GftE with either Spear of Lightning or Vicious Attack, to get a great chance of a critical on skills that get a lot of benefit out of criticals. The proposed change to GftE would reinforce that gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I disagree with your statement that its ok to completely destroy a toon for a long time if the hex isnt spammable.

I didn't ever say that. I said it's decidedly not ok for a hex to destroy someone for a long time. It is ok for *multiple* hexes in combination to destroy someone for a long time, or for single hexes to destroy someone for a short time, but nothing should totally wreck a toon for a long time when cast.

There's a lot of disagreement about how badly Price or Spirit wrecks someone on their own. Personally, from playing with and somewhat against the skill, I've never felt that it did overly much on its own. Reckless, I could drop on Warriors and they'd immediately suck, but Price is something I don't even call for removal on until something else shows up. On its own it was only a hammer when I was swinging into Aegis...but again, I attribute that to Aegis wrecking me, not the Price. The Price just makes being wrecked hurt.

But yeah, I'm not used to Price/Spirit being called for removal in the absence of other hexes, so I can only imagine that our Warriors expect to be successful even with just that on them, which matches my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The thing with an on-skill Hexbreaker Aria is that all you'd need is 2 paragons and it would be impossible to make anything, even a water hex, stick.

Hexbreaker Aria has a great mechanic - light party-wide removal of hexes. Except it's not, because it triggers on spell instead of skill. Making is skill would have it fill a really important role. You have single removal on single targets, you have mass removals on a single target, and you have single removal on mass targets. That last one is huge because it's good against spammed, AoE hex garbage that goes on everyone.

I would not worry about the skill against single hexes or single target hexes for that matter. It's a lot worse than any single removal you could have there. As for Deep Freeze, I'd be happy that there was actually a viable counter to that, and other AoE hexes in the game. Counters to big AoE effects aren't neccessarily overpowered, are they?

You might not have to drop the adrenal cost on it to make it playable as long as it was on skill. But I'm seriously tired of little micro tweaks to hex removals that are so woefully insufficient given the threat they're being asked to deal with. I'm looking squarely at single hex removals here. They are all *terrible* at dealing with hexes from any build with multiple hexers. Veil is ok on someone who can maintain a couple (and key for fighting water hexes on a flagger) but the rest are all so bad that you wouldn't run any of them if being unable to remove any hexes wasn't terrible.

Hex removal right now means two skills, Expel Hexes and Purge Signet...barring a dedicated cleaning character with Signet of Removal + MoI. How good do single hex removals need to be to be any good against hexes? I don't know, but we should probably find out. I am honestly surprised at the reaction of 'oh, single removals that can remove hexes are too good' when we're staring at a metagame where hexes are dominant and impossible to remove.

Is the thought process that hex removal needs to be bad, so hexes need to be really bad too?

Peace,
-CxE