Curse

Lord Natural · Jun 01, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

If a nerf of Mantra of Persistence is in order (and it is), I don't think reducing the energy cost fits well with it. As it stands right now, you have to do a lot of things right (hitting p drains, not mucking up auspicious) to maintain it at 15 energy without backing off casting for a moment. Reducing the cost just makes it easier to maintain, and the tradeoff is a 30 second migraine as opposed to a 38 second. Not a bad trade, if it allows mantra to be kept up 100% of the time, as opposed to perhaps 75%.

suiraCLAW · Jun 01, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Corrupt enchantment is perfectly fine.

Anyway:

Price of Failure 5/2/8
For 5...10 seconds, target foe has a 10...50% chance to miss with attacks and the next time target foe fails to hit in combat, that foe takes 30...90 damage and price of failure ends.

- Doens't really require hex stacks (although it would be a bit more relieable if used in one), making it aviable for more tactics and builds.
- Active shutdown.
- Has a maxed potential: it can't deal enournous amounts of damage and can't prevent enormous damage.

Spirit of failure just needs a small decrease to both duration and recharge.

Reckless Haste
10/0.25/20
For 1...5 seconds target foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Reckless Haste. Foes under the effect of Reckless Haste attack 25% faster but have a 20...60% to miss with attacks. Reckless Haste is reaplied every time that foe fails to hit.

- Doesn't work in hex stacks: it's always on top.
- semi-active shutdown since it reaches it full potential when timed carefully (ie. when your taget is spiking).
- Less of a "press and forget skill"

Blurred Vision
10/2/20
For 8...18 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes are Hexed with Blurred Vision. While Hexed, those foes have a 50% chance to miss with attacks against moving allies.

If I can hit somebody once and he doesn't move, why wouldn't I be able to hit him the next time?
- Less of a passive shutdown.
- Less of a total shutdown, good teams would still be able to work around it (until it's removed) by calling snares and knockdowns.

Greedy Gus · Jun 01, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

you seem to think that just because Burning Arrow gives Rangers a decent method of killing it deserves to be nerfed? I expected a little more from you Ensign... BA doesn't need nerfing. The rest of the damn line needs buffing. The only reason people don't like BA is because its the only decent skill for damage Rangers have available.

l2read is key, he was giving the argument for why BA doesn't need to be nerfed.

I think BA rangers & mending touch are in an interesting position, where if you touch either by much at all, the other goes crazy or goes out the window respectively. Before with cripshots, you weren't forced to bring heavy condi-removal on a split. They applied degen, and then it was a game of baiting out the interrupts & getting your self-heal off. The ranger really relied on a teammate to come thrash you while snared.

ATM, if you don't have mending touch against a BA ranger, you're going to die if you can't get away. The role has reversed so that the ranger does the thrashing, but more heavily relies on a teammate to come snare you. I think it was more interesting before in regard to skirmish and positional split play, but I like that rangers are a quick threat to NPCs now.

Lorinda · Jun 01, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I dont know whats wrong with Broad Head.. It moves like a schoolbus you can dodge it by side stepping onces.
Besides that. If you dont like daze on your prot monk, let the other monk bring either draw or a condition remover.

On the paragon subject : Its a ranger with a shield with warrior armor on..
I think every ranged class should have a max of 70 base armor.
Also Aggressive refrain is kinda overpowered. It feets itself because you can spam your adrinaline scouts more offen.
The sin is a fast killer and needs to be mobiel so a fat armor doesnt fit in there. I hope we can see that.

Aegis: bring mirror of disenchant or just a interupt. Or plain NR. Its not that overpowered, and beside SoD one of the few counters vs paragons.

Mending Touch: if that is going to be on prot prayers your better off bringing Remedy Signet.

If you hate fear me way or steady stance, let anet make the drunken blow only knockdown if you really hit the target. Then the spam bot doesnt get the adrinaline or the energy to use the skills.

Defensive Anthem & Weap of Warding > WTB weapon and Scout/chantremover.

Lord Natural · Jun 01, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Reckless Haste
10/0.25/20
For 1...5 seconds target foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Reckless Haste. Foes under the effect of Reckless Haste attack 25% faster but have a 20...60% to miss with attacks. Reckless Haste is reaplied every time that foe fails to hit.

- Doesn't work in hex stacks: it's always on top.
- semi-active shutdown since it reaches it full potential when timed carefully (ie. when your taget is spiking).
- Less of a "press and forget skill"

Blurred Vision
10/2/20
For 8...18 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes are Hexed with Blurred Vision. While Hexed, those foes have a 50% chance to miss with attacks against moving allies.

If I can hit somebody once and he doesn't move, why wouldn't I be able to hit him the next time?
- Less of a passive shutdown.
- Less of a total shutdown, good teams would still be able to work around it (until it's removed) by calling snares and knockdowns.

Reckless Haste: That's a bad idea. There are a number of scenarios where hex removal may not be available (a gvg split, arena play, etc). So if a warrior/sin/ranger etc decides to split, you can send someone back to cast one spell and then forget they're there as they hack away with an everlasting reckless haste.

Blurred Vision: That would change the skill from overpowered to downright useless. An adren spike will almost always involve a knockdown to start it.

Shendaar · Jun 01, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Reckless Haste: That's a bad idea. There are a number of scenarios where hex removal may not be available (a gvg split, arena play, etc). So if a warrior/sin/ranger etc decides to split, you can send someone back to cast one spell and then forget they're there as they hack away with an everlasting reckless haste.

Hmm the only hex removal you would need for his Reckless Haste is your brain that tells you to stop attacking for the few seconds it last.

moko · Jun 01, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

ok, guys, listen up now.

this thread is, with one exception (Paragon armor), about SKILL changes only -- meaning that this does not include any kind of game mechanic suggestions.

if you would like to suggest a limited profession system, please go over to Sardelac and post it there, but keep this thread clean.

also, for PvE discussion, a thread has been created in the Campfire here. thanks to Age for creating it. please take any sort of PvE discussion there -- we cannot move every post due to server lags.

again, i would appreciate if you kept this clear of any off topic discussions.

remember; skills only.

___________

Defensive Anthem is pretty broken IMO. the conditional part should be made to any sort of attack skills, so Paragons can't spearspike anymore (without using skills) to gain energy from Gfte if needed. it's only a major change, but it would work. a possible increasement in cast time might be a good solution also.

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

Defensive Anthem is pretty broken IMO. the conditional part should be made to any sort of attack skills, so Paragons can't spearspike anymore (without using skills) to gain energy from Gfte if needed. it's only a major change, but it would work. a possible increasement in cast time might be a good solution also.

What do you mean 'Any sort of attack skills'? I thought it ended on Attack skills already. Do you mean when you successfully land a hit? If so that would probably be a decent change since it doesn't really hinder casters. Would mess up if the team had Heros though since they love to wand things but i guess thats the price you pay.

moko · Jun 01, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

What do you mean 'Any sort of attack skills'? I thought it ended on Attack skills already. Do you mean when you successfully land a hit? If so that would probably be a decent change since it doesn't really hinder casters. Would mess up if the team had Heros though since they love to wand things but i guess thats the price you pay.

yeah, you can basically C+Space to fill up your adrenaline and keep the Defensive Anthem on you as long as you don't use na actual attack skill.

so yes, end on a sucessful hit.

and who cares about heroes. :P

Neo-LD · Jun 01, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorinda

I dont know whats wrong with Broad Head.. It moves like a schoolbus you can dodge it by side stepping onces.
Besides that. If you dont like daze on your prot monk, let the other monk bring either draw or a condition remover.

Aegis: bring mirror of disenchant or just a interupt. Or plain NR. Its not that overpowered, and beside SoD one of the few counters vs paragons.

Your argument is exactly parallel to the common "lolz its not imba u can just diversion it" one. And we all know how valid that is.

Hint#1: Just because a counter exists, doesnt mean its balanced. Not by a long shot. (Think Blinding Surge, Avatar of Grenth, Ritual Lord, Rampage as One, and Searing Flames, in their original forms)

Hint#2: The scope of our discussion goes way beyond just what is balanced and what is not. We are far more interested in what is best for the game(how to best reward player skill).

So please go back and reread Ensign's argument for BroadHead Arrow, and mine for Aegis, and then post back when you understand.

Patccmoi · Jun 01, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Corrupt enchantment is perfectly fine.

Anyway:

Price of Failure 5/2/8
For 5...10 seconds, target foe has a 10...50% chance to miss with attacks and the next time target foe fails to hit in combat, that foe takes 30...90 damage and price of failure ends.

- Doens't really require hex stacks (although it would be a bit more relieable if used in one), making it aviable for more tactics and builds.
- Active shutdown.
- Has a maxed potential: it can't deal enournous amounts of damage and can't prevent enormous damage.

Spirit of failure just needs a small decrease to both duration and recharge.

Reckless Haste
10/0.25/20
For 1...5 seconds target foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Reckless Haste. Foes under the effect of Reckless Haste attack 25% faster but have a 20...60% to miss with attacks. Reckless Haste is reaplied every time that foe fails to hit.

- Doesn't work in hex stacks: it's always on top.
- semi-active shutdown since it reaches it full potential when timed carefully (ie. when your taget is spiking).
- Less of a "press and forget skill"

Blurred Vision
10/2/20
For 8...18 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes are Hexed with Blurred Vision. While Hexed, those foes have a 50% chance to miss with attacks against moving allies.

If I can hit somebody once and he doesn't move, why wouldn't I be able to hit him the next time?
- Less of a passive shutdown.
- Less of a total shutdown, good teams would still be able to work around it (until it's removed) by calling snares and knockdowns.

Personally i like those changes a lot. I'd raise Blurred to 75% miss against moving foes (not allies =p) so that it's really a skill that excels to support kiting. But on the other hand it wouldn't protect from interrupts (since you're not moving when using a skill) or from spikes with a kd. This way it'd have a different, interesting use. I don't see why you'd put it at 2s cast though, it'd be quite fine at 1s cast with this new effect.

Reckless Haste is a good idea too. I'd still put it at like .75s cast though, cause 'instant' cast seems a bit imbalanced to save adrenal spikes.

Changes like that would really improve the skills when it comes to 'dynamic' play. I mean, if you use Blurred and kite well, it can be a very good defense but a bad team that doesn't move around wouldn't get much advantage out of it. Just like a well timed Reckless could be very good but throwing it at random on a melee would be kinda worthless.

Price of Failure i'm not too sure, but if you put it like that at least make it 1s cast, not 2, so that it's even remotely comparable to Clumsiness. It'd be a slightly weaker version of Clumsi in a sense, but with better stats. Maybe you could even lower the recharge to like 6s.

Oh, and Evilsod, please stop with the 'Rangers are shunned from PvP'. This is ridiculous. Watching HA is the worse thing you could do to judge of what's popular in PvP, HA has a majority of 3 wars + 3 para teams atm... It's simply a big gimmick-fest arena.

BA/BHA Rangers are extremely popular in GvG and TA because of their skirmish strength and extremely good interrupts. In GvG, their ability to be both powerful at stand with interrupt, in skirmish and at running flag makes them very versatile characters that few balanced setups like to skip. Even if those 2 elites were nerfed to the ground (and nobody suggested that at all) they would still stay there cause the elite isn't the reason you bring this char, it's its skirmish + interrupt strength. The mix of DShot, Savage, Poison, Natural Stride, Troll and cheap Mend Touch is what you care about. The elite is icing, which is why you see Cripshots, BHA or BA that have the exact same bar except for the elite. And if the 3 of them were removed, you'd still likely see those rangers around using some random elite because the rest of the template is extremely powerful. More than half the GvG games i obs have a R/Mo in them. And some also use them for spike/pressure like [be] running 2 R/E with Glass Arrow and Conjure Frost to do mini-spikes with a warrior and interrupts in between. Bow rangers are by far the most popular Rangers out of HA (oh, sorry there's also R/P that are more popular in the incredible PvP arena called Hero Battles)

Riotgear · Jun 01, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Well that's sorta what Assassins do. And this IS an RPG based game.

That doesn't make them a good idea. Sitting on a bad idea and forcing it into viability is not good game design, and it does not make things more fun. Balance is always more important than role-play, even more important than keeping a dumb, poorly-designed class like the Assassin viable for anything more than training wheels for idiots in RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna Star

BHA is like an infinite blackout once it sticks, forcing to bring a counter only encourages luck and build wars

It seems akin to someone complaining "Why does daze never stick if I don't have a cover? Being forced to bring Apply Poison is build wars!" No, not really, you're adjusting for your weaknesses. RC is target-other, that's a weakness, one which BHA exploits. Not to say BHA doesn't need adjustment, but claiming that bringing any sort of stack removal off of your RC is build wars is silly. Draw does not exist solely as Daze insurance, unlike things like Vocal Minority, Mirror of Disenchantment, or Divert Hexes which are just there to act as I Win buttons against very specific things while being of questionable use against anything else.

As for hexes, it's been mentioned before, but hexes always seemed like the long-recharge hard-to-remove counterpart to conditions, which are the spammy, powerful, but easily-removed temporary effects. With some obvious exceptions of course, i.e. 6-second Mesmer hexes. I'd rather see the effects toned down and/or capped, turning long-duration hexes into a way to sludge up the battle without completely shutting down a player for the duration. That and some recharge increases (yes, Faintheartedness and Reaper's Mark, I'm looking at you) to make target selection more important, and make disruption more effective.

Making Blurred only effective against moving targets is an interesting suggestion though.

Lodurr · Jun 01, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Taken on their own, I think that Price of Failure and Reckless Haste, for example, are perfectly reasonable hexes as is. What makes them problematic is the large amount of cheap, efficient garbage that floats around and gunks up all of your removal.

Just one copy of PoF or SoF on you for 30 seconds means 30 seconds of busted spikes. It's not the single 25% chance to miss, but 25% chance to miss + Aegis or stances or WoW or blinds or wards.

Spamming cover hexes and shutting down your hex removal is simply how hex builds are played. The class shutdown hexes need to be balanced with that in mind, that they might be covered and never removed. Hexes are a big issue right now. I still believe that no build can beat a competent hex team in a straight 8v8 fight, other than another hex build or a ridiculous anti-hex build that doesn't even exist (2 Dwaynas, 2 Expel Paras, and a Divert Monk).

TheOneMephisto · Jun 01, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

As I had said. They are good for the PvP and not so good for the PvE. And yes there is an impact. Lets see PvP is lvl 20 vs lvl 20 where as PvE in HM is lvl 20 vs lvl 24+ that is doing 50%+ faster attacks and everything.

Odd seems to me that PvP skills are also PvE skills unless I missed some memo that they made all skills seperate. Thus some discusion of the PvE side is warrented. Unless you would like to tell the PvPers to stay outa any PvE discussions?

And PvP is versus people that think, while PvE is against mindless AI, your point?

And discussion of the PvE side is definitely not needed in a PvP forum. Hell, they could nerf all these skills and just add a new PvE-only skill with the exact same old stats and I'd be happy.

And the difference between PvEers in a PvP discussion and PvPers in a PvE discussion is that a lot of PvPers play PvE also, even at a high level. However, a lot lower percentage of the PvE population plays PvP at any competitive level. Either way, most of the PvPers I know that don't play PvE never bother to even look at the PvE discussions at all, I know that I don't.

red orc · Jun 01, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

The length of the Daze does not matter.
If you got one monk dazed for 6 sec and you failed to break the foe just resign and rethink your build and your gameplay.

Zui · Jun 01, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

BTW, Moko, there are two exceptions! Soul Reaping is the other one :O

moko · Jun 01, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

BTW, Moko, there are two exceptions! Soul Reaping is the other one :O

they're already whining about Paragons, don't give them another reason. =P

but yeah, that was edited after i looked at the op.

Quote:

The length of the Daze does not matter.
If you got one monk dazed for 6 sec and you failed to break the foe just resign and rethink your build and your gameplay.

it's not always about the flagstand monks, it's actually about skirmish situations as well, where a long dazed will matter a lot against an E/Rt.

Quote:

Spamming cover hexes and shutting down your hex removal is simply how hex builds are played. The class shutdown hexes need to be balanced with that in mind, that they might be covered and never removed. Hexes are a big issue right now. I still believe that no build can beat a competent hex team in a straight 8v8 fight, other than another hex build or a ridiculous anti-hex build that doesn't even exist (2 Dwaynas, 2 Expel Paras, and a Divert Monk).

QFT.

Living Parasite · Jun 01, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Throwing out some food for thought.

Miss % capped at 50%.

Whenever a lead, off-hand, or dual-attack misses, it recharges instantly.

around · Jun 01, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Two skills that have a synergy that's quite annoying:

Weapon of Warding on its own is fine. 50% block for 8 or so seconds unremovable might be *slightly* overpowered (comparison to Guardian in order here), but I don't think this needs to be changed much beyond scaling the block rate to something like 30%-50% (from 0-12).

Blurred Vision is a bugbear of mine. Slap it on a group of warriors and they're incapacitated for 20-odd seconds. Slap it on a ranger in a skirmish and render his interrupts useless. It's quite hard to interrupt if your ping is over 250-300ms, since a sudden lag spike can cause you to miss it, and it can basically be maintained nearly 100%.

Combine the two and it's just downright bad. 75% miss rate is incapacitating to a ranger that relies on interrupts to make a sizeable presence, since it basically renders you interrupt-free and able to cast without fear.

Age · Jun 01, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Orignally Posted by Ensign
Not to say that isn't a good change (you'd probably match Guardian's 20...50 with it), but I'll disagree with it as a priority nerf for two reasons. First, because we're discussing a lot of significant defensive nerfs here, and particularly defense against the 8v8, Warrior-based pressure that is so popular at the top of the ladder. Aegis is particularly good against that type of build, but surprisingly weak in a number of other situations, such as whenever you're split heavily, when you're facing a spike team, or against more caster heavy teams. So while it's really good against the best teams in general, it's disproportionately good there.

Second, the tools for dealing with Aegis are there, and people are used to fighting that war now. Most teams have a Ranger and often a Mesmer as well who spend time hunting Aegis. Mirror of Disenchantment is now an aggressively priced counter to Aegises that slip through (with some other uses as well). When there's so much uncounterable defense out there, the defenses with established counters aren't a priority.

That said, if that nerf was listed I'd nod my head and move on without any argument

I am glad you can explain it as I see a lot of Monks in GvG just spamming it like a orisons spammer.I have seen this a lot on Oberver Mode and I always watch the Monks for the most part in Observer it is like they do is GoLE+Aegis.That is not how the skill is meant to be used best to use your stable guns skills.

I made that thread in the camfire in all fairness to both sides who play game.