Curse

Neo-LD · May 31, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Great list, Ensign. Its been particularly enjoyable to read someone else post passionately about rewarding player skill, for a change. I especially liked the changes and justifications for Shadow Prison, Recall, Searing Flames, and Dazed.

As has been brought up recently by others in this thread, I would support adding Aegis to the chopping block. To me Aegis is undesirable for all the same reasons that passive paragon things are undesirable, so Im surprised it didnt make your list.

wuzzman · May 31, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Great list, Ensign. Its been particularly enjoyable to read someone else post passionately about rewarding player skill, for a change. I especially liked the changes and justifications for Shadow Prison, Recall, Searing Flames, and Dazed.

As has been brought up recently by others in this thread, I would support adding Aegis to the chopping block. To me Aegis is undesirable for all the same reasons that passive paragon things are undesirable, so Im surprised it didnt make your list.

aegis chains are balance woot. Especially combined with wards and a blind bot

.

Zuranthium · May 31, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Those skills are too powerful even without IAS stances.

Black Lotus Strike is "if you are hexed, I am at full mana to combo your face with, oh and I just landed an offhand so I get to start with my dual attack." This is the skill responsible for crazy long attack combos. It's your setup and your energy management in one shot. It's worth two pips of energy easy, plus whatever you get from critting on it, plus the damage, plus enabling the combo system. Chopping 5 energy off of your combo enabler, and giving it +damage in line with it being a utility skill and not a rawdog beater is entirely appropriate.

I'd be fine with a small hit to the energy gain and damage to make it a bit less effective for spikes but if it's truly going to be kept as a utility skill then the recharge also needs to drop to 8 seconds. There are SO many possible other Assassin builds out there that could be seeing playing with a few small tweaks to other areas of the Sin. The attack still do need to actually still be good, remember, in order to compensate for the other things the Sin lacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Shadow Prison is such an incredibly awesome effect between being a fast recharge offensive teleport, and a hard snare of the target so that they have no choice but to sit there and take it. It's spiking for retards in one nice little package. I think that at the very least you should have to invest points in the skill's attribute if you want your super spiking for retards tool to work. Unlike now, where you put your dump points in it and the effect is still up even after you finished your combo.

"It's spiking for retards", yes, but without IAS it would definitely be less of a spike. The fragility of sin combos simply must be kept in mind. With slower attacks, you're giving them more time to put up prot and a greater chance of interrupting the Horns of the Ox knockdown or the second offhand hand before it hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you put Daze on a target, he becomes helpless. He cannot remove Daze from himself, because Daze makes all the Daze-removal tools take twice as long to cast and trivially interrupted. In order to have any chance of pulling it off yourself, you have to either shake off your attackers so that you can cast in peace (which is really bloody hard when everyone knows you're dazed), or create some combo with a lot of block infrastructure so that you can remove it, some fraction of the time, without a blow landing. By remove, I mean Mending Touch, because Daze comes from Rangers and that means that it's always covered by Poison. No single removal will work, as Poison goes right back on before another single removal can do its job. Also, because Daze is an offensive condition, you can't let it linger like a defensive condition. You need to take it off, fast, or it can very likely cost you the game. Hence the only ways to deal with Daze are massive block/miss defensive infrastructures, or multiple mass removals on different characters - neither of which are remotely viable in small fights.

So, of course, this must remove condition that wins the fight lasts *at least* 15 seconds, and likely 20 or more seconds, so there's absolutely no hope of it blinking off (hell, even if you did last with it on for duration it would be reapplied before it expires), for the low, low cost of standing next to someone and pushing the "This ****er's dazed!" button. This is of course the epitome of balanced gameplay that properly rewards player skill.

Or not.

You make it sound like Dazed is applyable on command. Broad Head Arrow is So. Freaking. Slow. To make it work against non-tards the ranger needs to be standing hella close to the target. When you know they've got Broad Head and they come running into your backline, it's pretty obvious what is going to happen. Start kiting away and punish the Ranger for pushing so far in.

But, that said, I would like to see some better 1/4 activation Condi Removal options (and hex removal options) in general. Put Purge Conditions into the Protection line so Monks are getting some actual milage out of it. I think you'd see RC Monks taking it over Mending Touch quite immediately.

And, although this is somewhat unrelated, I believe all single condi removal spells (Mend Condition, Dismiss Condition, Mend Ailment) should be in the Healing line. The multiple removals (RC, Purge, Mend Touch, Extingush, Draw) should be Protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't recall anyone besides yourself ever being a big proponent of that idea. What's the problem with every profession having access to teleport skills if they are willing to sacrifice their secondary to get them? I don't think that the identity of the class teleporting has ever been a problem.

I think it's more of a flavor thing. Warriors are Warriors. They don't teleport. Just as they don't act as healers. Sure, you CAN put a strong Heal spell on a Warrior bar (lets say Light of Deliverance!), that doesn't mean they should be able to use it as effectively as a monk. And they can't. Teleports are the "Primary Attribute" of Assassins and they should be the only physical class that can utilize it effectively.

~Z

Hellcaller · May 31, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Or just make BLS a lead-attack, that only gives energy when hitting a hexed foe?

bungusmaximus · May 31, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellcaller

Or just make BLS a lead-attack?

How do you mean that? dos it still have ene gain from a hexed foe? or ene gain without hex? in that case it's a bit dodgy as you will gain energy if you are still almost full, it would become a free lead attack at best. Theres much sexier lead attacks that cost less to begin with.

Priest Of Sin · May 31, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Actually... having BLS as a lead wouldn't be too bad... I could add Temple Strike into my chains!

BLS+TS+BSS+BoS= ftw

The recharge time would be teh lame though.

Symbol · May 31, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Actually BLS as a lead attack would be pretty good. Something like 5e 6r which gives back 5...10...11 energy if you hit a hexed target. It'd enable a lot more builds then, since you wouldn't need 13CS for good e-management.

Hellcaller · May 31, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

@ bungusmaximus

You're referring to my first post in this thread, in which i forgot the energy issue and was a doubl (-_-), but you posted while i was deleting it, sorry about that.

But yeah, making BLS like GLS could work i guess.

Lodurr · May 31, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I question that mentality when a skill has quite a bit of use regardless. Granted, there are other ways to do the same thing, like MT, but I often see the "zomgbuildwars" argument brought up even though practically every team runs a few specific skills, i.e. Veil.

If it were something like Mirror, which is of questionable use against anything but Aegis, I'd see the point. But it's Draw, a skill which has always been useful in keeping the RC clean, and serves more purposes than just countering one specific skill. Hell, MT is closer to a "build wars" skill than Draw was, since it was practically added just to keep BA and YAA under control.

EDIT -- To kind of further address that point, RC can not be self-cast, so bringing a skill to keep your RC clean is not exactly "build wars," it's simply covering for a weakness of RC.

Draw basically requires a midline Ele or smiter and that's not feasible in every build. Many stand Eles are E/Rt for WoW.

Smart teams have condi removal off of the RC, but unless it's Draw or MT it's probably not going to pull that covered daze off.

Maybe it was early to bring "build wars lol" to this thread, but I agree with Ensign that it takes too much on your team's part just to get rid of the dazed. BHA is up there with Price of Failure and Reaper's Mark in terms of ridiculous imbalanced durations IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

As has been brought up recently by others in this thread, I would support adding Aegis to the chopping block. To me Aegis is undesirable for all the same reasons that passive paragon things are undesirable, so Im surprised it didnt make your list.

I don't mind Aegis anymore. Every team really ought to have a ranged interrupt or an enchant strip or both. It's a pain when there's a 3-Aegis chain with 7 seconds overlap, but that much defense comes at the cost of better offensive options. I wouldn't call that build wars either because there are multiple solutions for it from multiple professions. Another solution is using some heavy caster damage and there's been more of that in the meta recently (Mind Blast Eles).

Ec]-[oMaN · May 31, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

Draw basically requires a midline Ele or smiter and that's not feasible in every build. Many stand Eles are E/Rt for WoW.

Smart teams have condi removal off of the RC, but unless it's Draw or MT it's probably not going to pull that covered daze off.

Maybe it was early to bring "build wars lol" to this thread, but I agree with Ensign that it takes too much on your team's part just to get rid of the dazed. BHA is up there with Price of Failure and Reaper's Mark in terms of ridiculous imbalanced durations IMO.

And it takes way to much effort to apply the dazed WHICH is only viable against an RC monk. I can make the same argument about how much coordination it takes to even make a daze push in the current state of gvg. First you need to drop aegis's, then maybe p block/p leak a weapon warding, make sure defensive anthem isn't up, make sure you aren't blurred/galed/blind, trained by warriors, finally you can proceed to ATTEMPT to drop the dazed on the only character which could get recked by it, which finally has retards defense(Soldiers d).
Moving on I think it's about time Sig humility made it to a nerf list, a signet which costs no energy, can recharge twice as fast, limited interupt counters, and shuts down elites has always made me crimp. It's also the main reason hex teams become so much trouble.

Lodurr · May 31, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

also, i want a MTouch fix. get back the old recharge (4 sec) and make the condition removal based on prot prayers

Holy crap that's the best MT fix I've ever heard of. Have it start at 1 condi and scale to 2 at 9 or 10 Prot.

Living Parasite · May 31, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

I think it's more of a flavor thing. Warriors are Warriors. They don't teleport.

That's a very narrow-minded point of view that many won't agree with. You're trying to impose your view of how GvG games SHOULD be, however I (and hopefully many others) think you shouldn't limit strategy but discourage strategies that require less skill to effectively run that other skills.

Btw, LoD heal party members under 70% anyone?

lacasner · May 31, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Btw, LoD heal party members under 70% anyone?

/signed.....

Patccmoi · May 31, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

Btw, LoD heal party members under 70% anyone?

Personally i'd like to see how some 'party' spells would work with 'Earshot' range instead.

I'm not sure if it would work or not and i dunno if it has been tested before, but it seems like having Aegis and LoD in Earshot range instead of Party would help a lot. I'd see the same with Orders and DFury really, and maybe even Heal Party.

I just don't like the idea of having someone that can be out of combat range being able to heal or prot or buff everyone because sometimes you just can't do anything about it. There is no option to interrupt an Aegis when it's cast from out of combat range (especially from E/Mo runners for example). Just like monks saving overextended warriors through LoD is kinda lame.

Dunno, not 100% sure if it's a good idea or not but i'd be happier with it this way. Might make degen builds too strong though, so maybe not for LoD/Heal Party but could be at least an option for Aegis.

Oink The Pig · May 31, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I have a feeling that a lot of hexes are balanced around the existence of the Lieutenant's Insignia. With the nerfs to hex duration suggested in some of these replies (not talking about Ensign's suggestions here), you could just bring a Warrior with a Lieutenant's Helm and an interrupt of some sort and not have to worry about hexes sticking around enough for you to care... which in turn means Necros get to warm the bench again.

Wearying Strike--agree that recharge needs a nerf. We've tried it on other Avatars and it's still decent because it's spammable DW. Melandru is also probably a little too good since the immunity to Deep Wound makes it that much tougher to kill with or without the health bonus. But I'd also hate to see it go the way of Grenth. Hitting Wearying Strike might also open things up for people to try a different elite.

Some of the suggested nerfs feel like affirmative action for Monks, since Rit Spike and Fear Me IWAY are two high-profile Monk-less builds. Lightning shields help quite a bit vs. Rit Spike, and experienced teams know what to do against Fear Me groups while less experienced teams can get their feet wet. Steady Stance was already nerfed to the point where you don't even have to take both Drunken and Desperation Blow, so further nerfs to the build seem inappropriate.

Searing Flames...at 85 damage, is it even worth 15e? The Burning wouldn't likely last on the target long enough to make the spell worthwhile, making this a bad Immolate.

Isn't BHA the only other Marksmanship elite other than Burning Arrow that gets much consideration now? I'm not sure a straight duration nerf without some other type of buff is the right answer, considering it also requires the Ranger to get up in close range to have a decent chance at hitting.

The problem with nerfing "Go for the Eyes!" in terms of adrenal cost is that it's the most effective e-management skill within the Paragon's own profession. It feels like everything else about the class is balanced around it. That said, the other skill nerfs seem appropriate, particularly Defensive Anthem. I'm not sure about the 80 to 70 armor nerf, since I like that it can stand around a bit longer than other midliners. I would really like to see some sort of reworking for Vocal Minority and other anti-shout measures because they simply don't work.

Lastly, I'll just repeat what some others have said in that nerfing Black Lotus Strike severely limits the Assassin's ability to combo attacks. Take the combos away and you have a pretty worthless primary profession. Against an experienced Monk, you really need to use two hexes to even have a chance at a kill on the BLS chain. The Assassin really doesn't have the armor to be used as melee pressure, so having viable spike-ish attack chains seems critical to the profession.

Luna Star · May 31, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

On topic, changes to aegis, lod and heal party would make sense, that also includes orders.

Narayanese · May 31, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Personally i'd like to see how some 'party' spells would work with 'Earshot' range instead.

I agree fully with this, preferably for all the party skills. It doesn't feel right when an order necro/HP ele/LoD runner can stand halfway across the map from everyone else and use his spell, with no risk of getting attacked.

LifeInfusion · May 31, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Just some things I feel should definitely be considered:
Avatars--> Melandru's condition resistance modified to use "on hit/skill use" mechanic from Avatar of Grenth/Lyssa/Dwayna
Banishing strike --> minions AND spirits (compare this to Unnatural signet and Spiritual pain)
Aegis--> % block scale with protection prayers, and earshot range so it cannot be casted all the way at the edge of radar
Searing Flames --> increase recharge to 5 on top of reducing it to 87ish max damage instead of 116, lengthen burning to 7...10 kind of duration to make it more pressure not spike
Broadhead arrow--> make it not daze full duration (1/4 or something) if within earshot
Blurred Vision --> make the % miss scale so it isn't abused by Rt/E's
Panic --> increase recharge
Watch Yourself--> instead of making it 6 Adrenaline, why not make it disable all other shouts and chants on your bar for 15 seconds so that fear me/gfte/other stuff can't be spammed
Weapon of Warding --> make the % block scale
Aggressive Refrain--> duration 2...6ish refreshes with attack skill to make it fit lore wise (Aggressive not = shouts/chants)
Soul reaping--> recharge 5 seconds, and make it only *your minions* and dead foes (not allies)

IIRC Izzy once said that he wants a shift from passive defense to active defense. Rits and paragons are ruining it.

Lodurr · May 31, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Banishing strike --> minions AND spirits (compare this to Unnatural signet and Spiritual pain)

It already does. It really nukes clumped-up spirits/minions because the scythe is hitting a few targets, and on each target the AoE holy damage is triggered.

Quote:

Aegis--> % block scale with protection prayers
Weapon of Warding --> make the % block scale
Blurred Vision --> make the % miss scale so it isn't abused by Rt/E's

I agree with all of these completely.

Earshot is a harsh range on party support spells. Maybe a limited radar range would be better, although it'd be nice to have something that tells you when your party is or isn't in range. I wouldn't like to see party-wide spells go away because battles would get really cramped, GvG would be like 8v8 TA.

Quote:

Watch Yourself--> instead of making it 6 Adrenaline, why not make it disable all other shouts and chants on your bar for 15 seconds so that fear me/gfte/other stuff can't be spammed

What if all shouts made all your other shouts recharge for 2 seconds? Makes sense, you're supposed to be yelling something.

Quote:

Aggressive Refrain--> duration 2...6ish refreshes with attack skill to make it fit lore wise (Aggressive not = shouts/chants)

That's an interesting solution. It'd require Aggressive Refrain Paragons to *gasp* be aggressive.

Zuranthium · May 31, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

That's a very narrow-minded point of view that many won't agree with. You're trying to impose your view of how GvG games SHOULD be, however I (and hopefully many others) think you shouldn't limit strategy but discourage strategies that require less skill to effectively run that other skills.

Every class has certain limitations. You might as well call EVERYTHING narrow-minded (*cry*....I can't make an Elem who melees as good as a Warrior *cry more*). The idea fixes a game balance issue and makes sense RPG-wise too.

~Z