Curse

Patccmoi · Jun 20, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

A good hex team isn't going to stack, they're going to have a few nasty hexes on each character if the necro is any decent.

See it this way : if they have only 1 hex, a single hex removal can do it. If they have 2 hexes, there's good chances you can use Deny Hexes on it (most teams carry a monk that can remove 2 with it), or at worse you Convert and you're very likely even with the hexer on energy (what kind of 5E hex is worth a Convert by itself?). If they have 3 hexes, you likely come out on top with energy with your Convert.

And most hexes worth Converting have 10+s recharge, and if you let all of them go through (no interrupt, Diversion, etc.) you got deeper trouble than hex removal in your team. The only exception is possibly Faint, and i agree that this one still needs to be looked at.

And note that some hexes SHOULD manage to stay on your team too and be an annoyance. If you manage to remove/interrupt the totality of a hex team without a straight-out counter build, than hexing becomes obsolete. And if a hexer guy is obsolete than hexes aren't balanced, they're underpowered.

Hexes still need to be something you manage to punch through by a mix of tactical interrupts and well-timed removal to clean your guys and score kill. If it's not possible, then hexes are overpowered. If it's too easy, than they're underpowered. If they don't make you struggle or annoy you, then they're useless.

Saider maul · Jun 20, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

all faintful needs is a 10sec recharge to put it in line with other hexes. If it makes the People Who Feel hex is " over powered " scale the reduced attack rate say 25-48-52% percent forcing Higher attribute spread. To go beyond a change like this and It would make it not worth the energy to use it. Then we still need to address the other anti melee hexes that were nerf to much. 1 purge to remover 25e and make a necro wait 20 seconds to reapply is not balanced. shortening and scaling the duration for price/spirit of failure will make those skills valuable again and put " Skill " back into them when used properly.

Whould that with the current updates make those who are anti hex happy?

Seamus Finn · Jun 21, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Blurred Vision: Not very happy with this change. It's hurt Water severely in skirmish, namely when trying to deal with a Burning Arrow Ranger. There's not a lot that can stand up to that template to begin with, and I'd like to see those options expanded, not reduced.

On the blurred/weapon of warding guy, I can see teh blurred being important in dealing with the burning arrow ranger. But warding, like you said, is pretty much dead anyhow on eles, which leaves the SoR guy. I don't think he is terribly affected by the blurred nerf in a 1 on 1 situation(base defense or some kind of flag based skirmish I suppose). When it becomes a 2 man or 3 man skirmish I can see the blurred nerf starting to hurt. At the same time, the other team is probably using the same few characters... Really, what the move to the SoR template has done for me is convince me that really there is only one archetype used to combat burning arrow rangers in 1v1(in a defensive manner) and thats basically a monk. SoR eles have energy management SOR, usually a mend touch, aegis is popular now, and the snares are rather mediocre. Wouldn't you consider him more of a monk with a snare or two than a water ele?

I do think its something of a problem that there is really one clear offensive skirmish character to run right now(Burning Arrow obviously), that doesn't suddenly lump you into the "split build" category for running him. I want ot be clear in that I don't think the Burning Arrow Ranger is really overpowered, just uniquely good. I hope that more characters can be developed that are like BA rangers. Oddly, the illusion mesmer is looking like the best option right now...

Symbol · Jun 21, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Oddly, the illusion mesmer is looking like the best option right now...

Not so odd, people did use to run them a fair amount a while back.

The new improved clumsiness + imagined burden looks very nice in skirmish.

Seamus Finn · Jun 21, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Not so odd, people did use to run them a fair amount a while back.

The new improved clumsiness + imagined burden looks very nice in skirmish.

The skirmishing is not odd at all. Illusion gankers have always been the undisputed champ of soloing. What's odd is that they may even have use at the flag stand, where before, running one meant you were running "a split build".

Riotgear · Jun 21, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I really gotta ask, what is the point of micro-nerfs like trimming one second off Conjure Phantasm at 8+ illusion? Is there any real impact to a change like that?

Skuld · Jun 21, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

It's either a token change (to piss PvErs off!) or something they'll do gradually (take another second off in a later update).

TedTheDead · Jun 21, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

A good hex team isn't going to stack, they're going to have a few nasty hexes on each character if the necro is any decent.

Well if they are only using a few of the nasty hexes does Divert Hexes not completely destroy them and mock their entire family in the process?

I dunno, I am no expert monk but I do like to roll a monk every so often and I seem to do OK. I usually bring Divert Hexes and occasionally another hex remover. Divert Hexes usually would get all I needed done, turn their hexes into a nice heal, the only exception was stacks, which with this update is now a bit easier to deal with due to the change to convert.

bah, Im more used to using hexes then removing them so I will stop talking now.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 21, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

running divert means you don't run rc.

TedTheDead · Jun 21, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Indeed, quite the conundrum. Beat hexes or beat conditions. I usually bring Mend Condition when I have divert. Its around 90 health for every condition you take away (with divine of course), but it then there is the cost and sheer volume of conditions they can have.

We could always petition ANet to allow us to run 2 elites.

Blame the Monks · Jun 21, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

We could always petition ANet to allow us to run 2 elites.

Or petition them to stop making elites the only worthwhile skills. The game has enough decent elites -- it needs more viable, deep, skill based skills that aren't elite. This is why most classes are such horrible, one dimensional gimmicks.

Div · Jun 21, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

Indeed, quite the conundrum. Beat hexes or beat conditions. I usually bring Mend Condition when I have divert. Its around 90 health for every condition you take away (with divine of course), but it then there is the cost and sheer volume of conditions they can have.

We could always petition ANet to allow us to run 2 elites.

Who needs 2 elites when you can petition to run 8 of the same skill? Mending x 8 ftw...

Thomas.knbk · Jun 21, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Or petition them to stop making elites the only worthwhile skills. The game has enough decent elites -- it needs more viable, deep, skill based skills that aren't elite. This is why most classes are such horrible, one dimensional gimmicks.

This is indeed bad, and it's true for most classes. The question, though, was about RC vs. Divert, and I'd say monks are one of the few classes where this is NOT the case.

Patccmoi · Jun 21, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Or petition them to stop making elites the only worthwhile skills. The game has enough decent elites -- it needs more viable, deep, skill based skills that aren't elite. This is why most classes are such horrible, one dimensional gimmicks.

All the most popular balanced templates aren't really elite driven though.

Domination Mesmers are good without an elite. Hydros are good without an elite. Common Ranger is good without an elite (considering you can run the exact same bar with either Cripshot, BHA or BA because the rest of the bar is so damn strong). Warriors need their elite, but the rest of their skills aren't really bad either and you can still make a decent warrior that doesn't depend on its elite. Monks benefit from their elite a lot but have very solid skills without, again why you see basically the same monk bar or nearly but that switches to Divert, ZB (well used to), RC, SoD, SoR, etc. Paragons are surprisingly independant on their elite which is why you see them run stuff like Expel. Curse Necros are pretty independant on their elite too.

But then again, that's the popular templates in a balanced build. It covers maybe 10-12 attribute lines over the 40 present in the game. The rest are indeed lacking seriously in decent non-elite skills. A Fire Ele for instance is either Mind Blast, Savannah Heat or Searing Flames and his bar entirely depends on the elite to be worth anything. Air ele is BSurge, and that's the only reason you pick an air ele. Earth ele is... unexistant =p So are like Blood and Death Necro in PvP (though occasionnally you might see like a Tainted, but that again is an elite-centered bar).

So ya, your point stands. Problem though is that at this point most attribute lines have such deep conceptual problem that you just can't expect them fixed much. For example, i couldn't figure how you could make a Blood Necro an interesting character on his own (out of Blood Spike) by just fixing the numbers on a few skills. About 3/4th of the skills in the attribute line are copies of each other that deal x shadow damage or steal x life with no other interesting effect.

TedTheDead · Jun 21, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

For the record I was kidding just incase someone was unsure

That said could you imagine what would happen if we could use 2 elites. As if balance was not hard to work on as-is lol.

Ensign · Jun 21, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I don't think he is terribly affected by the blurred nerf in a 1 on 1 situation(base defense or some kind of flag based skirmish I suppose).

Burning Arrow kills through SoR alone. You need some sort of supplemental defense to keep even an archer alive. Blurred used to accomplished that, now it's still possible to use by dancing around walls but it's not reliable at all. Not being able to keep an archer alive in a 1v1 situation is kinda a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I do think its something of a problem that there is really one clear offensive skirmish character to run right now(Burning Arrow obviously), that doesn't suddenly lump you into the "split build" category for running him. I want ot be clear in that I don't think the Burning Arrow Ranger is really overpowered, just uniquely good.

I don't think Burning Arrow is a problem skill either, it is, again, just an elite that lets a Ranger actually deal damage - it's what makes them a threat on their own instead of having to support Warriors and Dervishes on a split. What I think is a problem is how few templates can defend a base, with NPC support, against a single Ranger, while still being useful contributors in a larger fight. Water Eles were a good thing for the game because of that ability, and how well they are able to support in a larger fight. If they stop being able to reliably keep a Ranger away, we're going to have to drop back to 3 Monks (or 2 Monks and a Ritualist as I'm partial to right now) and run more raw defensive characters. I don't consider that a terribly attractive option for Guild Wars. There should be more strong offensive and defensive skirmish templates, not less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

running divert means you don't run rc.

It also doesn't do anything because you turn into the Signet of Humility bitch.

Relying on elite hex removal only does anything if you run multiple elite removals.

Seamus Finn · Jun 21, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Burning Arrow kills through SoR alone. You need some sort of supplemental defense to keep even an archer alive. Blurred used to accomplished that, now it's still possible to use by dancing around walls but it's not reliable at all. Not being able to keep an archer alive in a 1v1 situation is kinda a problem..

I suppose that BA would kill through SoR alone, but doesnt the SoR bar also have a mend touch? I rarely see one without it. Without blocks, and misses it is a matter of time before that skill is on dshot recharge, but eles can fake the skill with their large energy pool(also, since SoR eles have GoLE they can also fake blurred as much as they want, no?). But yeah, I am probably biased against water eles a bit on account of seeing them so much lately, but it's not the water eles fault that he was pretty much the best thing to run if you wanted a base defending flagger that could skirmish and do something useful at the stand.

At teh same time, is this all sidestepping the issue? If you are running a water ele and sending him back, is it fair to assume he should be able to indefinately hold off the ranger? Wouldn't it be better to assume he is there to hold out for a small time frame and when some offense is sent back, snare and kill the ranger? As far as skirmish templates go, more is better, to be sure, but I would rathe rhave more offensive skirmishers and defensive ones. Maybe that's just me though.

Patrograd · Jun 22, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

If you are running a water ele and sending him back, is it fair to assume he should be able to indefinately hold off the ranger? Wouldn't it be better to assume he is there to hold out for a small time frame and when some offense is sent back, snare and kill the ranger? .

If it always takes 2 defenders to deal with 1 attacker, then this is surely an issue as it *guarantees* any team that splits off a BA ranger an advantage at the stand or an NPC advantage at VOD.

As someone else said, this change to blurred means that people now need to look more seriously at purely defensive runners so they dont get into this disadvantage situation, and purely defensive templates are, by definition, more one-dimensional than utility skirmish templates. Losing some offensive capability on your runner means that you need to replace that offensive capability by revving up the damage on other characters, making them in turn more one-dimensional....Do we really want the meta forced into more one-dimensional builds?

Lodurr · Jun 22, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Burning Arrow kills through SoR alone. You need some sort of supplemental defense to keep even an archer alive. Blurred used to accomplished that, now it's still possible to use by dancing around walls but it's not reliable at all. Not being able to keep an archer alive in a 1v1 situation is kinda a problem.

We ran into this exact situation tonight vs OUT and the SoR could easily keep the archer alive with his meaty Mending Touch and SoR. You trade the 50% block chance of the WoW template with the elimination of conditions, which is how the BA kills in the first place. In a vacuum the BA would eventually win, but that was also true of the E/Rt template.

Riotgear · Jun 22, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

So ya, your point stands. Problem though is that at this point most attribute lines have such deep conceptual problem that you just can't expect them fixed much. For example, i couldn't figure how you could make a Blood Necro an interesting character on his own (out of Blood Spike) by just fixing the numbers on a few skills. About 3/4th of the skills in the attribute line are copies of each other that deal x shadow damage or steal x life with no other interesting effect.

Curses actually has more conceptual problems than blood does, it just has a few exceptionally powerful pieces of melee hate. Aside from melee hate and PvE splash damage hexing, which both have very few spots allocated on the line to begin with, Curses is pretty non-cohesive, redundant (how many different ways do you need to slow attack speed by 50% or cause Weakness?), and full of WTF skills like Chilblains, Envenom Enchantments and Poisoned Heart.

Blood's mostly just a dumb DD line the same way Fire is, which isn't necessarily a problem, but at least it's consistent.