Curse

RhanoctJocosa · May 23, 2007, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Call it what you want, I'm after what strategies you as a player and team employ against the current iway build. My guild and I have been discussing it lately, and we'd rather not build against it, rather, think of specific ways to counter it.

We currently run a Dev hammer war, Melandru's derv, SH fire ele, Blind Surge air ele, Trident water ele, PD dom mes, LoD monk and RC monk. There's the obvious blind ele, but with the spammable Song of Purification it doesn't get much done. All we can think of is for our casters to run around in negative sets and swap up and down hoping not to get Fear Me'd when they are up, and work the Paragons with diversion untill SoP/Expell gets diverted, so we are able to snare and blind the warriors - however it's generally harder than it sounds. As for spiking, the Paragons usually have 90+ armour so that's no easy task, not to mention the frequent D-Chops and, if they run a modded version with a spear Paragon, Disrupting throws.

Having seen some pretty good groups go down to it, I'm really just wondering how everyone else tackles this team.

Thanks alot, peace.

Giga Strike · May 23, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

[skill]Ulcerous Lungs[/skill]
[skill]Well of Silence[/skill]

i though that these might help.

Div · May 23, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Fitting a vocal minority somewhere really helps too.

FoxBat · May 23, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Those don't work any better than they did when energizing finale paragons ruled the place. You can't make hexes stick without a hex build, especially with expel around. (And they'd generally have to be really daft to stand in a well). Coincidentally, hex builds got tougher to play with the introduction of kill count...

Gimme Money Plzkthx · May 23, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

You can play hexes. Oh wait, we have this stupid thing called killcount in HA, nevermind.

Living Parasite · May 24, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Your water ele pretty much makes or breaks the game. Having well placed Frozen Bursts/Blurred Visions and with the random water trident every now and then, your backline should be able to kite. Also, I recommend recommend running SoD/Guardian on one of the monks.

Lorekeeper · May 24, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

oops i wrote strategy for fighting paragon way not zergway.

ok so its the w/r with trapper and 2 paragons that you are having trouble with.

yep its a tough one

ill try put this into bulletpoint format... things [ugly] does to beat these teams or tries to lol

1) snare and kite and blind those warriors... monks need to be on the move 24/7 only stopping to heal and prot
2) pressure the hex removal paragon so he is not free to remove hexes
3) kill spirits
4) spike and pressure paragons

its basically a pressure race... can your monks hold out longer than their paragons can? If you cannot pressure their paragon backline you are going to lose. Try to catch a paragon after he infuses... its sneaky but it works.

its absolutely vital the their warriors are snared and your midline and backlines can kite from them... just a few seconds free from fear me spam is enough for energy to recuperate... its being constantly drained that will cause problems.

we do struggle against this build because we run a 2 monk backline so their 5 warriors reap havoc on the 2 of them... if you are running a 3 monk backline you should have a much easier time. It all depends on how organised they split their warriors. If they split them on all 3 monks things will get tough... but if at any moment 1 monk is given freedom from fear me spam... there really shouldnt be a reason why you should die. And the longer you last against this team the better the chances you have at taking down their backline.

lemme take a look at your build

hammer
melandrus derv
bsurge air
sh fire
trident water
pd mes
rc
lod

ok so its a modded ugly balanced build... i see 1 problem... its the hammer warrior. The dervish must be applying alot of nice high dmg pressure on the paragons at a constant rate... when he has melandrus avatar up. But the problem you will have is when the avatar is down... all you are left with is a hammer warrior and a very weak dervish.

hammer warriors in my opinion are not great at pressure high armour targets... what they excel in is KD locking soft targets or spiking soft targets because each of their hits does a substantial amount of dmg. However against high armour targets the dps of a hammer warrior is quite low. I also dont think the hammer warrior is able to unleash his combo at a high enough rate to cause problems for the enemy backline.

i dunno... perhaps try an axe+sword or axe+dervish frontline. Or even 2 axe. You need to punch through that armour.

hope i was some help

RhanoctJocosa · May 24, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Thanks for taking the time to write all that up, Lorekeeper, and everyone else.

Clinically Proven · May 25, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Ward Against Melee + decent water ele. Plenty of eles in that build - drop one skill and spec 8 or 9 in earth for a reasonable ward length, water ele keeps the para's busy.

ty and goodnight

Div · May 27, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

If they're running expel on one of their two paragons, they become really vulnerable to spikes (as they lose out on either defensive anthem or restoration). The overall single target healing capabilities are then limited to one chant, one signet, and maybe an infuse.

elektra_lucia · May 27, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

At the moment all I do is play with heroes and random people. Excluding my friend, who plays PD or e-surge mes. I noticed far better results when I'm protting than when someone else is protting. Things are the same as they have always been. Get the spirits down.

Our strategy is we don't bother with vent. We press 'tab' and 'add' If we added a ranger, we give him a skillbar, if it's an ele we give him a skillbar. So I wouldn't say we build against anything.

So long as people keep up with the calls, get the spirits down and don't suck things usually go ok. I don't like blinding eles, aegis and what not... Our monk bars were this:

rof, gift, channeling, veil, rc, spirit bond, soa, shielding hands
seed, lod, infuse, orison, dwayna, channeling, veil, draw conditions

The best advice I can give is ask yourself. Were the groups you had 'good' and are you sure about it? I highly doubt it.

RhanoctJocosa · May 27, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Well, it was the first time we played our balanced build in HA and it was up against iway, so we didn't know what skills were on the Paras' bars and what not. But yeah, it's no problem now, it's actually easy fame.

This is pretty much how we handle it now:
-If they are running Expell we sit the PD mes on it to try and Divert it
-PD mes also tries to interrupt their spirit spammer (if they have one) - although the axe warrior (changed from hammer) spirit hunts if needed.
-Ele, staying in a negative set, gets as many Frozen Burts/Deep Freezes/Blurred as possible off.
-Monks (all casters for that matter) are running 100% of the time, only stopping to cast. We cycle draws/rcs which usually keeps everyone up - providing everyone is doing their job with pressuring/snaring.
-The Paragons, as holymasamune mentioned, don't really have any direct healing so once pressured they fall pretty fast.

Thanks to everyone for commenting here. +++

pigdestroyer · May 28, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

I remember facin this IWAY team with 3 paras and a ritualist... holy crap we eventually got them down at 18 mins.. damn scrubs

assassin of the god · May 28, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

lol wuts iway?

Snares works best. They don't have to hit in order to get adren from SS(although without damage to back it up e-denial is pretty useless), they only have to swing. But Ward Against Foes, along with some good snares(frozen burst is AMAZING), along with good kiting ofcourse will stop them doing either. Ofcourse aegis is pretty nice too, even better with its synergy with negetive sets and gole.

¿Evan¿ · May 28, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

DP out their low armored targets over and over until they run out of res sigs and then kill them 1 by 1

tomcruisejr · May 29, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

lol wuts iway?

The one that pwned your ass way back.

But yea, Imma ask the same shit. What's the now-IWAY? The IWAY i know died long ago.

Lord Natural · May 29, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

The one that pwned your ass way back.

But yea, Imma ask the same shit. What's the now-IWAY? The IWAY i know died long ago.

I believe it is 4 warriors running the steady stance/fear me build, 3 paragons running buffs/heals and 1 misc (sometimes another warrior with charge and other shouts). Doesn't really have the dps of the old iway, but it's a little more resilient, and the fear me spam tends to wear groups down. Seems vulnerable to hexes, but like other have mentioned, kill count kind of RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs that idea up.

God Apprentice · May 29, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

I believe it is 4 warriors running the steady stance/fear me build, 3 paragons running buffs/heals and 1 misc (sometimes another warrior with charge and other shouts). Doesn't really have the dps of the old iway, but it's a little more resilient, and the fear me spam tends to wear groups down. Seems vulnerable to hexes, but like other have mentioned, kill count kind of RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs that idea up.

That's basically Zergway.

masta_yoda · May 29, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

the zerg ive been fighting lately is like 4 warriors 2 paragons 2 monks
which is annoying and quite difficult to kill(depending on your build).
-If you have speed boost like make haste, keep them on your monk
-Water ele blurred vision the pack of wars
-if your running hex, shouldn't have a problem against zerg but will most likely lose on broken tower or other maps depending.
-keep spiking paragon and monks(kill dp target), line backing warriors usually doesnt work cause there pressure is greater yours and still eventually kill you, unless they are superball and you aoe them.
-interupt the paragons with signet of return

Royale · May 29, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

The IWAY we've ran into the most lately has been the 4 Fear-Me W/Rs with pets, a Crip Anthem para, a Song of Restoration para, a third para either with Cautery Sig or Song of Purification and a trapper dedicated to spirits like Fertile, EoE, NR, Tranq, and Pred.

There's a lot of armor in there with all the paragon buffs so trying to spike down the warriors is generally not recommended. Dealing with the Song of Resto paragon is probably the most important thing. These healer paras can't deal with an overload of nukes if they're placed on a single target for an extended period of time.

If you're running a fire/water ele combo with a two melee frontline, training the Restoration paragon will pay off as long as you can hold off the W/R's long enough for you to kill. Quality snares from your water ele should be able to keep your monks up decently. Also, keep your PD mes on their spirit spammer.